Artillery Divisions of Pakistan Army

[Gryphon]

We got several independent artillery brigades. What's their structure? Does they follow the pattern of A, B or C? Or mixed?
Pakistan has pretty large stock of M109 and it does not fit in above configuration unless we got indep SP Brigades attached with Armored & Mec divisions.

There are 9× Corps Artillery brigades and one or two independent artillery brigades under GHQ. The former use towed guns and 122mm MBRLs.

SP Medium Regiments are held by Divisional Artillery (Armd/Mech Div) and other IABG's.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

@PanzerKiel which artillery is more effective in Hilly Terrain? Self Propelled or Towed?

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel which artillery is more effective in Hilly Terrain? Self Propelled or Towed?

Of course, towed howitzers.

@PanzerKiel which artillery is more effective in Hilly Terrain? Self Propelled or Towed?

Reasons for not using SP Artillery in hilly terrain
-limited availability of roads
-limited turning radius available due to sharp turns
-Steep gradients
-Need for maintenance and support base for SP vehicles (spares and repair)
-Additional load on logistics for supply of POL
-Bridges in mountains may not be able to take load of SP vehicles
....Just some of the reasons.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Of course, towed howitzers.



Reasons for not using SP Artillery in hilly terrain
-limited availability of roads
-limited turning radius available due to sharp turns
-Steep gradients
-Need for maintenance and support base for SP vehicles (spares and repair)
-Additional load on logistics for supply of POL
-Bridges in mountains may not be able to take load of SP vehicles
....Just some of the reasons.

I was watching comparisions between Pakistan and India's Artillery. though we Outnumber them in Self Propelled Artillry but they outnumber was by 1:3.5 in Towed Artillery and is increasing thanks to M777 and Dhanush. I think PA must look into Towed Artilleries too as LOCs are hot and incursions will probably happen first at LOCs and WBs in case of escalation

 

[PanzerKiel]

I was watching comparisions between Pakistan and India's Artillery. though we Outnumber them in Self Propelled Artillry but they outnumber was by 1:3.5 in Towed Artillery and is increasing thanks to M777 and Dhanush. I think PA must look into Towed Artilleries too as LOCs are hot and incursions will probably happen first at LOCs and WBs in case of escalation

Dear, donot see this in isolation for Indian western front only. Their artillery has to be distributed between their Chinese and Pakistani borders. They have more area to look after, thereby more resources required. If you want to have crystal analysis, then do closely observe the number of artillery formations and brigades they have deployed solely against Pakistan. Then you will be able to arrive at a meaningful result.

You know its a bit more complex than it seems. In simple terms, if we buy more artillery, then its means we have to raise more units (which is not in our domain, Ministry of Defence, Finance etc, they get involved since these new raisings require fundings), then since there is a upwards ceiling for the strength of the army, so again MOD has to approve so that budgetary and pay allocations can be made......
New units means more strength, new accommodation and unit areas will have to be constructed for the new units (again money needed)

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dear, donot see this in isolation for Indian western front only. Their artillery has to be distributed between their Chinese and Pakistani borders. They have more area to look after, thereby more resources required. If you want to have crystal analysis, then do closely observe the number of artillery formations and brigades they have deployed solely against Pakistan. Then you will be able to arrive at a meaningful result.

You know its a bit more complex than it seems. In simple terms, if we buy more artillery, then its means we have to raise more units (which is not in our domain, Ministry of Defence, Finance etc, they get involved since these new raisings require fundings), then since there is a upwards ceiling for the strength of the army, so again MOD has to approve so that budgetary and pay allocations can be made......
New units means more strength, new accommodation and unit areas will have to be constructed for the new units (again money needed)

Nobody playing war games (not the military) ever takes infrastructure (buildings and roads and bridges) or logistics into account. Facts of life.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Nobody playing war games (not the military) ever takes infrastructure (buildings and roads and bridges) or logistics into account. Facts of life.

...And who takes them into account...wins!

 

[Joe Shearer]

...And who takes them into account...wins!

I will forward some information that is indirectly relevant to your thread, in the sincere hope that the forward will not be misunderstood, that it is well understood to be for the underlining of your point.

The BRO is building 61 strategic roads spanning 3,346 kilometres along the crucial India-China border. The roads are being built at a breakneck speed and in fact, 72% of roads i.e over 2,400 kilometres have been already blacktopped making them all-weather roads.


The BRO is also slated to complete the blacktopping of 11 other crucial roads along the India-China border before December 2019 and the blacktopping of another 9 roads will be completed by 2020. The construction of the roads at a rapid pace is aimed to alter the status quo and change the military dynamics in the region. The BRO is constructing roads which include all-weather alternative access into Ladakh, passing through the Rohtang -Koksar- Kelong route into the Zanskar valley and further up into Nimu. This access will reduce travel time for the military by several hours. Three more tunnels — Baralach La, Lachung La, and Tanglang La — are now being constructed. The Rohtang tunnel will be thrown open this December.


China has been trying since long to stake a claim on Arunachal Pradesh and the state has witnessed Chinese aggression in the recent past as the state also grapples with connectivity issues. Hence, in Arunachal Pradesh, the 180 km-long road parallel to the India-China border connecting Passighat to Brahmakund is now complete. Interestingly, Taksin and Tama Chung Chung are linked by the road connecting the Eastern and Western RALP (Rest of Arunachal Pradesh, a military term), saving thousands of kilometres of journey. The BRO has also stepped up its efforts in the West with as the crucial 255 km Durbok-Shyok-Daulat Beg Oldie (DSDBO) road connecting Leh to the northernmost corner of India, which lies a few kilometres south of the critical Karakoram Pass, is now complete and blacktopped. Importantly, all the 40-odd bridges along the DSDBO road have been widened and strengthened to allow heavy vehicles to travel with ease.


The construction of crucial roads has resulted in a significant reduction in time for moving troops, equipment, supplies, and stocks and has reduced by about 40%. The BRO is using technology to construct roads at a faster rate as it has adopted new cementitious- and admixture- based technology — which allow constructing roads faster in colder climates where construction season is smaller and also material doesn’t easily disintegrate, unlike traditional constructions. The new technology has reduced the time taken to construct and blacktop the roads by about one-third.

1. Please notice the over-riding importance given to one set of borders; this may correct some fallacies that you have yourself also tried to correct, one or two posts earlier.
2. Passighat to Brahmakund is in the furthest easternmost corner, in the Walong sector, abutting on Myanmar.
3. Anyone who wishes to trace the line Durbok-Shyok-Daulat Beg Oldie will see how this alignment runs through the most difficult and hostile terrain in Ladakh.
4. Daulat Beg Oldie, for those who are not serving officers in the Pakistan military, is India's most advanced air base in the Ladakh sector.
5. These are all roads that can take towed artillery up to and including the weight of the ATAGS howitzer, that in trials has gone beyond 45 kms.
6. Arunachal Pradesh is even more difficult terrain; it is enough to juxtapose that terrain with the specifications of the M777 for the edges of the puzzle to match very nicely. No claims are being made; only this juxtaposition is presented.

Other road-building and infrastructure building is not touched upon here as being superfluous; it seems that the PA knows each and every detail already, and handing it more just adds to the monotony of the analyst.[end of quote]

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

If you want to have crystal analysis, then do closely observe the number of artillery formations and brigades they have deployed solely against Pakistan. Then you will be able to arrive at a meaningful result.

@Joe Shearer can you make a thread about it?

You know its a bit more complex than it seems. In simple terms, if we buy more artillery, then its means we have to raise more units (which is not in our domain, Ministry of Defence, Finance etc, they get involved since these new raisings require fundings), then since there is a upwards ceiling for the strength of the army, so again MOD has to approve so that budgetary and pay allocations can be made......
New units means more strength, new accommodation and unit areas will have to be constructed for the new units (again money needed)

Well sir we are buying VT-4s and SH 15s so increase in units is already happening

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer can you make a thread about it?


Well sir we are buying VT-4s and SH 15s so increase in units is already happening

I am not promising; the lock-down keeps me busy with housework, sweeping, swabbing, washing clothes, shopping for vegetables and provisions, cooking, cleaning/washing up - you get the picture.

But without trying too hard to be precisely up to date, or precisely accurate - for reasons that you will understand if you have been following Gryphon, Signalian and PanzerKiel - I will try to put up something in a day or two.

 

[Gryphon]

we are buying VT-4s and SH 15s so increase in units is already happening

New equipment doesn't necessarily mean new units, 1/3rd of PA armour inventory is obsolete - awaiting replacement.

Same applies to artillery - when M109s recently came - existing regts were converted to SP Medium.

 

[Incog_nito]

Does Army needs 203mm and 155mm self propelled artillery from current users willing to sell? To complement their current inventory?

 

[PanzerKiel]

Does Army needs 203mm and 155mm self propelled artillery from current users willing to sell? To complement their current inventory?

We do need new SP Artillery for the new armored brigades.

We do need new SP Artillery for the new armored brigades.

.... But we are going for wheeled Artillery as well.

 

[Incog_nito]

We do need new SP Artillery for the new armored brigades.


.... But we are going for wheeled Artillery as well.

Why not get some more of the same type on which we are already experienced and expert to use and mobilize.

M110 203mm self propelled and even towed version is very good for PA in current as well as in near future wars.

 

[Gryphon]

3rd Artillery Brigade: 2x SP Heavy Regiment (203mm SP) + 1x SP Medium Regiment (155mm SP) + 1x Medium Regiment (155/130mm towed)

Side note: As may be required, the 3rd Artillery Brigade (being SP mostly) can be detached from the Arty Division and used to support Strike Corps operations.

M110A2 203mm self-propelled howitzer with insignia of 21 Artillery Division during Pakistan Day Parade

In addition to 3x Artillery Brigades, there is the divisional artillery component directly under GOC consisting of:

• 1x MLRS Regiment (300mm A-100)
• 1x MBRL Regiment (122mm KRL 122)
• 1 x Locating Regiment (SLC-2 radars and UAVs)

The brigades and the divisional artillery component each have 1x Meteorological and Survey Battery attached.

The process to permanently detach the SP Artillery Brigade from Artillery Division may well be underway now paving the way towards folding the Divisional assets into a Composite Artillery Brigade.