Army rubbishes claims of LEJ links.

[Amatoxin]

Masla khatam karnay ki koshish karo to missing person ka rolla tum log hi uthatay ho.

They are inter linked. You have never made up your ind. You just jump on the bandwagon with a bucketful of emotions...when Army/FC does something, you people make a hooha about missing persons and everything, and when somebody gets killed or arrested, you people start saying that 'kisi ayre gharay masoom ko utha liya hai, or awaeen naam laga kar pesh kar rahay hain'.

Your argument in fact can bite you back.

If the army decides to cull all these elements at one go the decline of terrorism and the attacks will surely make people understand that it was a job well done, no?

However, if the Army does these operations halfheartedly without destroying the roots of such orgs then people of course will ask what did they really achieve.

When army does not the the job and let's police and other civilian agencies do the job, you people then cry that the army is colluding with LeJ and helping them.

Civilian agencies IMO are incompetent IMO due to many factors

1. Army eats most of the budget, I heard it was more than 60%
2. The civilian forces were never given the attention due to the lack of civilian rule.

If the army does secretly take them out, it is the same people who write articles for Express Tribune and have emotional fits who make a noise about the extrajudicial killings and covert unethical ways of the ISI/Army/FC etc.

The sole purpose of the army should be to protect the nation, when was the Army even scared of the news coming out of such media houses.. It is enough that so many Pakistanis believe that they are bought by propaganda spreading countries, who really cares for these news items?

 

[Donatello]

Your army strongly denies any links with the LeT and JeM too! Really?

Unfortunately your army chief let the cat out of the bag when he mentioned to his American counterpart that they were his 'strategic assets'!! I think there should be more coordination between the Chief and the ISPR! Like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing!

So whatever the PA says, take it with a pinch of salt!

Actually whatever Indian media says, we take it with a pinch of salt.


Like they said " Aaney do"

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Pic on my latest visit to jhang!

.
Unfortunately the founder of lashkar-e-jhangvi [HAQ NAWAZ] is called a Shaheed in Jhang city!

ya when burka molvis and sectarian terrorists are called shaheed and heroes then there is not much hope there

 

[niaz]

Well if you listen to some speaches of shia clerics of that time..they had said similar hate filled words against sunnis...
But none asked their followers to go kill the other..
If Zia had allowed Jhangvi arrest on the basis of his speaches...same had applied to shia clerics and locking up so many renowned clerics from both sides had wreaked havok.
Who ever killed jahanvi....presumably shia militants...are to blame for escalating the issue.
Jhangvi had problem with shia because many of them disrespest 'sahaba'...and do so openly...
I for myself knew a shia family,who celebrated 'birthday' of Hazarat Ali,by making a cake with a figurine on top...They had shoa guests invited..named the figurine 'Umer' and chopped its head and distributed it.

So there you go...stupidity is on both sides...not only on sunni side.

Zia's policy was to keep the fight intellectual,and he succeeded in that.
We used to hear sunni clerics shouting anti shia slogans from our mosque's loud speakers every friday,but no violence against local shia population.
Later when the arresting,and throwing in the jails started,violence followed.

Honourable Safriz,

I don't disagree with most of what you say. But do you mean that it is okay to kill the Shia cleric who abuses the Sehaba without trial?

Let’s accept your rationale for argument's sake. Please tell me did you or anyone hear the two hundred or so Hazaras that LEJ killed in last couple of weeks in Quetta calling Sehaba bad names? Were'nt they killed only because they were Shia and that a Shia, whether a child, women or adult has no right to live in Pakistan? Similarly an eminent Heart Specialist and his 11 year old son were gunned down in Lahore a couple of days ago; did any one hear the doctor denigrating the Sehaba?

No one is saying that Shia are innocent. Shia militant arm Sepah Mohammedia was most certainly involved in killing Haq Nawaz Jhangvi & Tariq Azam and any one whether Shia or Sunni involved in cold blooded killing should be condemned without reservation.

I haven’t come across any literature from any Shia organization that declares “All Sunnis are wajibul qatal and have no right to live”. Wheras LEJ distributes such pamphlets with impunity. Nevertheless, in your judgement; condemnation of LEJ and sectarian parties by people like me is so one sided and unfair that you felt duty bound to defend the LEJ killers as you has done in the post quoted above.

This proves my assertion that bigotry is so deeply rooted in Pakistan society now that even highly educated people can’t’ seem to separate right from wrong and come out defending inhuman actions by an organization simply because the organization is of the same faith.

Majority of the people condemning LEJ are also Sunni. However such people consider extrajudicial killing of any human being, no matter how obnoxious he/she may be; a heinous crime. Only the State can sanction taking of a human life after due judicial process. I know from your posts that you are a very intelligent person. Nevertheless if you still feel that I and others are unfairly condemning the LEJ butchers, it is your privilege.

 

[Armstrong]

Your question is very pertinent indeed; why would a Shia, knowing that PA support sectarianism would join the Army in the first place? Until 1971 there was certainly no sectarianism in the army. Ayub Khan was secular, Musa Khan as well as Yahya Khan were Shia. Doubtless, there are still a lot of Shia officers & jawans in the Pak Army. But since the Zia era, you would find very few Shia in the ISI & secret services. Also most of the Army, just like most of Pakistanis, do not support sectarianism.

Ever since the bigot Zia ul Haq became COAS, militancy has been creeping in the Pakistan society. Youngman are part of the society before they become officers and jawans of the PA and the association with militancy probably continues. I can name Gen Hamid Gul former chief of ISI as creator of Sepah Sehaba and sectarianism in Pakistan.

Since ISI make use of the same people in Kashmir, it is understandable that quite a few shut their eyes to LEJ & TTP sectarian activities. Sharif Bro’s who are negotiating seat adjustment with LEJ are product of the Zia regime. Lal Masjid is located very near ISI Head Qtrs. in Islamabad. Do you honestly believe that ISI was totally unaware that Aziz brothers were stockpiling fire arms in the mosque?

If they were indeed unaware then ISI is the most incompetent intelligence service in the world which it is not. On the other hand if they were aware but let it go on, proves beyond doubt at least a section of ISI supports militancy & sectarian parties.

IMO US had justifiably kept Pak Army in the dark about their Osama operation. I for one find it impossible to believe that everyone in ISI was totally unaware of OBL whereabouts. ISI appears to
be so secretive that even the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing.

I have no break up of the ISI available before me to ascertain whether there are Shias in the ISI & the rest of the Security Apparatus of Pakistan or not but I have no reason to believe that there isn't for if that were truly the case, likewise, a schism would have manifested itself before us in a classical haves & have-nots approach.

As for General Hamid Gul, I've always known the Taliban tag attached to him but somehow Sectarian Outfits haven't been blamed on him by even his detractors, so this is new for me. I'd much appreciate it if some sort of substantiation of this were to be made available.

The Lal Masjid was indeed located in Islamabad but one would do well to understand that the ISI does not go barging in & defusing the situation for what it is they are an Intelligence Agency & it may well be so that like countless other times intelligence information may have been given but had fell on deaf ears as is the case of a myriad of bombings & militant attacks within Pakistan.

I find it absolutely unfathomable to assume that somehow the ISI is operating in a bubble when almost all of its postings are through the military on a periodic basis ! That somehow a Shia Corp Commander or a Brigadier wouldn't get a whiff of what is happening therein, that somehow the boys at the ISI who are going to change hands every 3-4 years anyhow are not in the control of the Military Higher Ups & yet an otherwise completely incompetent Army is able to keep such an impressive lid on the situation that none of us get any indication of the ISI & the Military High Command or the ISI, the Army & the Shia Contingent being factionalized within the Army & the ISI without pretty much anything happening to substantiate that !

The notion that the ISI appears to be so secretive that even the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing is comic because if we - the civilians - sitting outside can make such observations & cast such aspersions with such certainty than to assume that somehow the 'right hand' is going to be oblivious of what the 'left' is doing is fantastic at best ! Surely there would have been a schism in the Army or the Intelligence Agencies by now ? Surely a turf war of a sort should have manifested itself ? Surely some indicators would have existed ? Something...anything barring provocative opinions to substantiate that !

 

[niaz]

I have no break up of the ISI available before me to ascertain whether there are Shias in the ISI & the rest of the Security Apparatus of Pakistan or not but I have no reason to believe that there isn't for if that were truly the case, likewise, a schism would have manifested itself before us in a classical haves & have-nots approach.

As for General Hamid Gul, I've always known the Taliban tag attached to him but somehow Sectarian Outfits haven't been blamed on him by even his detractors, so this is new for me. I'd much appreciate it if some sort of substantiation of this were to be made available.

The Lal Masjid was indeed located in Islamabad but one would do well to understand that the ISI does not go barging in & defusing the situation for what it is they are an Intelligence Agency & it may well be so that like countless other times intelligence information may have been given but had fell on deaf ears as is the case of a myriad of bombings & militant attacks within Pakistan.

I find it absolutely unfathomable to assume that somehow the ISI is operating in a bubble when almost all of its postings are through the military on a periodic basis ! That somehow a Shia Corp Commander or a Brigadier wouldn't get a whiff of what is happening therein, that somehow the boys at the ISI who are going to change hands every 3-4 years anyhow are not in the control of the Military Higher Ups & yet an otherwise completely incompetent Army is able to keep such an impressive lid on the situation that none of us get any indication of the ISI & the Military High Command or the ISI, the Army & the Shia Contingent being factionalized within the Army & the ISI without pretty much anything happening to substantiate that !

The notion that the ISI appears to be so secretive that even the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing is comic because if we - the civilians - sitting outside can make such observations & cast such aspersions with such certainty than to assume that somehow the 'right hand' is going to be oblivious of what the 'left' is doing is fantastic at best ! Surely there would have been a schism in the Army or the Intelligence Agencies by now ? Surely a turf war of a sort should have manifested itself ? Surely some indicators would have existed ? Something...anything barring provocative opinions to substantiate that !

As usual your arguments are sound. It may be that I expected far more from ISI such as knowing where OBL was and also forewarning the going ons in the Lal Masjid.

The reasons being that in the first case our whole nation was disgraced because we kept saying that we don't know where OBL is and he was hiding next to the PA academy for 5 years. Also no matter how much I despise the gang ho mullahs, a mosque being attacked is a very distressing sight.

 

[Armstrong]

As usual your arguments are sound. It may be that I expected far more from ISI such as knowing where OBL was and also forewarning the going ons in the Lal Masjid.

The reasons being that in the first case our whole nation was disgraced because we kept saying that we don't know where OBL is and he was hiding next to the PA academy for 5 years. Also no matter how much I despise the gang ho mullahs, a mosque being attacked is a very distressing sight.

Niaz Bhai, I think that the OBL Fiasco is so shrouded by mystery & so unbelievable lapses that the truth is neither in what is being told to us nor in what we postulate happened; perhaps in 50 or so years when the Government files are declassified we might get to know what really transpired on that day but the official narrative is absolutely unpalatable for me right now !

About the Mosque thing - I agree ! It probably could have been dealt with in a exponentially more non violent way but I suppose nothing characterizes our reponses more so than the remark 'Being wise after the deed has been done !'.

 

[Hyperion]

Are you kidding me... non-violent way?

How Dr. @Armstrong? Please enlighten us with your logic!

Niaz Bhai, I think that the OBL Fiasco is so shrouded by mystery & so unbelievable lapses that the truth is neither in what is being told to us nor in what we postulate happened; perhaps in 50 or so years when the Government files are declassified we might get to know what really transpired on that day but the official narrative is absolutely unpalatable for me right now !

About the Mosque thing - I agree ! It probably could have been dealt with in a exponentially more non violent way but I suppose nothing characterizes our reponses more so than the remark 'Being wise after the deed has been done !'.

 

[Armstrong]

Are you kidding me... non-violent way?

How Dr. @Armstrong? Please enlighten us with your logic!

The Lal Masjid was already covered from all sides; impose a quarantine, cut off all water & power supply to it & starve them out over a period of 1-2 months ! Employ snipers in the choicest positions having enough vantage point to neutralize any armed threat that may decide to come from any direction.

 

[Hyperion]

Yara, any experience with crowd control, concept of dynamic target, liquid situation, containment? On field experience? Those SSG units and people handling the situation have years under their belts.

The only mistake they made was not to have used VX to breach the target compound.. it would have cleared lots of mess in there...

The Lal Masjid was already covered from all sides; impose a quarantine, cut off all water & power supply to it & starve them out over a period of 1-2 months ! Employ snipers in the choicest positions having enough vantage point to neutralize any armed threat that may decide to come from any direction.

 

[Armstrong]

Yara, any experience with crowd control, concept of dynamic target, liquid situation, containment? On field experience? Those SSG units and people handling the situation have years under their belts.

The only mistake they made was not to have used VX to breach the target compound.. it would have cleared lots of mess in there...

Nope no experience whatsoever !

But Lt. General Jamshed Gulzar Kiani agreed with me !

Khair the point is that whereas they might have been good at an operational level they are beyond pathetic at a public relations levels & this was made out to be more than a stick to beat Pakistan Armed Forces with !

Learn from the Indians - Jhooooot muuuunh pakaaa kar ke bolteiii hain aur saath homework bhiii kiyaa hotaaa haiii !

 

[Hyperion]

You'd make a perfect bureaucrat. You replies are as cryptic as your questions, without fail!

I am a straight shooter. The baddyz needed to die. They died. Period. Only one resentment, why did they not kill ALL of them?

Nope no experience whatsoever !

But Lt. General Jamshed Gulzar Kiani agreed with me !

Khair the point is that whereas they might have been good at an operational level they are beyond pathetic at a public relations levels & this was made out to be more than a stick to beat Pakistan Armed Forces with !

Learn from the Indians - Jhooooot muuuunh pakaaa kar ke bolteiii hain aur saath homework bhiii kiyaa hotaaa haiii !

 

[Armstrong]

You'd make a perfect bureaucrat. You replies are as cryptic as your questions, without fail!

I am a straight shooter. The baddyz needed to die. They died. Period. Only one resentment, why did they not kill ALL of them?

If us bureaucrats were allowed to run things in Pakistan for once instead of every other COAS who gets this brilliant idea of liberating Islamabad for us poor masses, things would have turned around way....way better !

 

[Hyperion]

Again you trolled my reply!

If us bureaucrats were allowed to run things in Pakistan for once instead of every other COAS who gets this brilliant idea of liberating Islamabad for us poor masses, things would have turned around way....way better !

 

[Armstrong]

Again you trolled my reply!

Oh Bhai I didn't troll anything !

You can't just kill the baddies because the repercussions are too severe to imagine; had we factored everything in, in addition to how many guns they had & what not, we wouldn't have done what we did & presented their sympathizers & themselves a perfect stick to castigate Pakistan Army with in a severe propaganda campaign !

Again I say - Do what India does ! Conjecture, exaggerations, omissions & out-rights lies are weaved together & promulgated so aggressively that opinions become facts, that news excerpts become veritable documents & that their narrative becomes incontrovertible !

Learn from that - Muuunnhh Pakaa kar ke Jhooot bolnaaa aur apneiii tracks ko cover karnaa jubbb Pakistan Army ko agiyaaa tou 3 million Bengali would come back to life & they could have operations to kill baddies with impunity till their hearts content !

Right now - Kuch achaaa bhiii karteiiii hain tou media usss ka beraaa gharak banaa deitaa haiii aur yeh chup baitheiii rehteiii hain !