Arjun News & Discussions

[faithfulguy]

I never said anything about the Arjun not being accurate infact i think it's a very good tank, also has the Indian army released anything official regarding the performance of both tanks or is all of this news from Shakala? Arjun has nothing to do with my argument, the T-90 is the center of my argument.

There is alot of distorted and out right incorrect information regarding the T-90 and its accuracy so i took the liberty to inform the masses, there is alot of distortion saying that the T-90 could hardly hit targets from 1600km with the main gun and that the ATGMs could not hit targets a 5000km, well that's fairy tails, read this:

T-90 - a knol by Anonymous


As far as i'm aware that's an un-offical record, as you can see the T-90 hit 11 out of 11 on the move and in a short span, more imortant because of the quick rate of fire the barrel was hot; consiquently, the accuracy did not suffer, so the excuse of the T-90s barrel performing poorly and te T-90 not being able to accurately hit shots with a hot barrel is busted.


This should quiet people that are hell bent on claiming the T-90 isn't capable of hitting targets from 5000km:


T-90 - a knol by Anonymous
Regarding ATGMs:


The T-90 can hit targets in hot temperatures and it can do it at night and it can do it at long ranges (in the hands of Indian crews):


T-90 - a knol by Anonymous






Is there a like for this? Also if this has any truth to it than the ammuniton, maintanance, and crew have to be taken into account because the fact is i have proven the T-90 can hit targets very very very accurately and at very long distances; moreover, it can do this while on the move. If all of the factors i have listed can be ruled out than something isn't right...



You just gave me a link to two bloggs and then you quoted someones post, when did quoting people's replies count as a credible source? Like i stated earlier the very unstealthy SU-47 with conventional nose, vertical stabs, FSW, conards, and convetinal intakes achieved a rcs of 0.3, so the butt-heads that keep saying the pak-fa only has a rcs of 0.5 are a laughing stock, esspecially when you consider all of the 'stealthy' features the pak-fa has and the fact that Russia has been able to reduce the rcs of aircraft from 10-20 times just with RAM.



I just scan through the forum for pictues and i havn't visited in a while, if you us google tanslator you can read trough the whole forum.



Well not much can be determined about the pak-fa's rcs just by looking at the aircraft; however, it does seem to have all of the features of a stealth aircraft, the one part of the pak-fa that people seem credical of is the underbelly and this is because it's not flat or in other words it has two 'humps' but if you study aircraft such as the Y-23, B-2, and the F-35 they too have these 'humps' the only difference is the 'humps' are on top of the fusalage. With Russia's progress in ram i would not be too woried. Moreover, Sukhoi prototypes are always far cries from the final production-look at the original SU-27.

So are you saying that something must be wrong with the test for T-90 to miss the targets? I would guess so but get ready for attacks from the fanatics in here.

 

[bumbgola]

You just gave me a link to two bloggs and then you quoted someones post, when did quoting people's replies count as a credible source? Like i stated earlier the very unstealthy SU-47 with conventional nose, vertical stabs, FSW, conards, and convetinal intakes achieved a rcs of 0.3, so the butt-heads that keep saying the pak-fa only has a rcs of 0.5 are a laughing stock, esspecially when you consider all of the 'stealthy' features the pak-fa has and the fact that Russia has been able to reduce the rcs of aircraft from 10-20 times just with RAM.

I linked to only one blog Broadsword . Then I also pointed to you that the blog is infact reproduction of what is published in a newspaper. I also gave you a link to the newspaper where it published the same stories/blog posts.

The "someone" whose comment I quoted was the good man reporter himself. Also su-47 is not a prototype any more that may explain the larger RCS for pak-fa.

 

[ptldM3]

I linked to only one blog Broadsword . Then I also pointed to you that the blog is infact reproduction of what is published in a newspaper. I also gave you a link to the newspaper where it published the same stories/blog posts.

The "someone" whose comment I quoted was the good man reporter himself. Also su-47 is not a prototype any more that may explain the larger RCS for pak-fa.

The origin of the source is from shukla, as for you quoting 'reporters' from a blogg, how do you know they are reporters? Better yet how do they know the rcs of the pak-fa which is a secret? Do you remember the concept pictures of the pak-fa, well there was an Indian news station claiming that Sukhoi sources told them that it was close to the real thing, which turned out to be a totally incorrect.

Now to get to your other comment regarding the SU-47, the SU-47 was just a prototype/technology demonstrator, only one was build and no improvment were made to it, the SU-47 had a 0.3 rcs from day one, like i mentioned the SU-47 has no LO shaping actually quite the opposite; however, it still acheived a very low rcs just from ram, so explain how a deticated 'stealth' aircraft such as the pak-fa has a bigger rcs than a conventional aircraft? It's not possible.

 

[Prowler]

@ptldM3

"Firing performance of Arjun MBT is superior to T-90S in terms of accuracy (both static and dynamic situations) due to gun ammunition combination and high order of weapon stabilization coupled with auto collimated MRS. Auto collimated MRS compensates for the barrel bend. Firing performance of Arjun MBT and T-90S is same in terms of defeat capability and rate of firing. Two axis stabilized commander’s panoramic sight integrated with gunners main sight provides “hunter killer” capability both in static as dynamic mode (moving to moving mode). Higher order of stabilization accuracy enables accurate fire on the move at a moving target while maintaining the stipulated fire rate. The commander of Arjun MBT can engage targets in case of emergency, capable of firing at various slopes and tilt angles. First round hits probability has been demonstrated for MBT Arjun on a 1 mil target and greater than 60% hit percentage when firing from a moving Arjun tank to a moving target, both at 25 km/h.

LAHAT (semi automatic homing) Missile firing from Arjun MBT has been already demonstrated using a stand alone Laser Target Designator (LTD). This designator can be integrated into Gunner’s Main Sight (GMS). T-90S can fire Laser bean riding missile..

Arjun MBT armament system including gun barrel has been proved to be robust and reliable No case of barrel burst was reported even after firing 10000 rounds. The Arjun MBT prototypes and pre production tanks fired more than 100 rounds from the same barrel in a day. Life of barrel of Arjun MBT is twice that of T-90S, estimate equivalent in Effective Full Charge (EFC) of 500."

Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs | Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion

Here mate please read through and could you look and see how different the Russian T-90 is when compared to the Indian Variant?

 

[Prowler]

"Chandigarh: Inducted to serve as India's main battle tank just over three years ago, the Army's fleet of Russian-built T-90s have run into serious trouble.

The problems include critical flaws in its fire control system, availability of ammunition and, what military officers said, was avoidable overuse during training exercises, rendering many tanks in need of overhaul.

According to Jane’s Defence Weekly, the tank’s continuing technical flaws are "adversely impinging on the Indian Army’s operational preparedness."

Confirming the Jane’s report, senior Army officers told this newspaper that the French Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera, which gives the T-90’s Belarussian (Peling IG-46) night sight its 3 km range and higher accuracy, is not "adequately tropicalised" and hence prone to malfunctioning in the extreme heat of the Rajasthan desert region, where temperatures inside the MBT routinely average between 55ºC and 60ºC.

During repeated manoeuvres in the Thar Desert, where the T-90s will ultimately be deployed in the event of an outbreak in hostilities, prolonged use under high temperatures had already "knocked out" between 80 and 90 of the Catherine TI cameras, rendering the FCS "unserviceable." The officers said that repeated efforts to correct the problem had been without success.

The TI cameras are the crucial "eyes" of the tank’s systems. At Rs 2 crores each, the Catherine TI system comprises almost one-sixth of each T-90’s total cost of Rs 11.75 crores."

Flaws in T 90 Main Battle Tanks troubles Indian Army | India Defence

See what went wrong...however the Indian Army was still fetish over the T-90 so you can rule out any fabricated results.The result between the comparative trials is as much a shock to them as it is to you and me

 

[Prowler]

If they so badly wanted the Arjun to emerge as a winner after a fabricated test then why would they have ordered so many T-90's to begin with? That's just bs man

 

[ptldM3]

If they so badly wanted the Arjun to emerge as a winner after a fabricated test then why would they have ordered so many T-90's to begin with? That's just bs man

First of all relax, i never even mentioned the Arjun, i'm talking about the T-90; secondly, the T-90 was ordered before the Arjun, correct? I also have a strong inclination that the source you posted got its information from Shukla?

I have a problem with people bashing the T-90 saying it can't hit targets, i have proven it can hit targets accurately from a long distance and while on the move, heck a tanker with 20 minutes of experience was able to hit night targets as far away as 3100km!

During one of the displays, T-90 struck 7 targets in 54 seconds. All were at the distance between 1500-2500m and the tank was on the move at 25km/h. While returning to position, the layer gave the control to the commander who used the gunner mode to fire to the rear of the vehicle and hit 4 more targets.

during the official trials of T-90, all of the ammunitions were fired by young conscripts who just finished training. All of the rounds – 24 of them, hit targets at a distance of 4-5km.

Indian crews quickly mastered the T-90S, they also did not have problems with the fire control and thermo-vision systems. Just after several training sessions Lt. Kapur of the Indian army acted as layer who accurately fired on to the targets at 2500-3000m. Officers from one of the panzer corps needed 20 minutes to familiarize with T-90S and successfully complete the task of destroying 4 targets at night from a distance of 3100m at an ambient temperature of 47°C.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkz_kD...1554148/**http%3a//knol.google.com/k/t-90

How does the T-90 do all this ^^^ but fail so bad against the Arjun, makes no sence. like i said earlier the the Arjun is a fine tank and i'm not taking anything away from it, my concern is regarding the T-90's capabilities not the Arjun's, no one has been able to explain how the T-90 did so well in varius trials and even in the hands of unexperienced Indian crews but failed so miserably in trials againt the arjun, how does the T-90 hit all of its targets even by someone that has only 20 minutes experience yet when it's pitted against the Arjun it magical misses targets that even a rookie was able to make (at night) (at 3100km).

If some of you are still having doubts about the T-90's ability to accurately hit tagets then read the following:

I convinced a 15 year old girl (the daughter of one of the workers at the polygon) to sit as the layer. For 5 minutes I explained her what she has to do, later we loaded a live round of 9M119. After the permission for fire, the girl easily detected the target 3.5km away, fired and hit the target. An experienced layer is capable to precisely guide the missile – f.ex. to hit a open hatch or anything else

 

[bumbgola]

The origin of the source is from shukla, as for you quoting 'reporters' from a blogg, how do you know they are reporters? Better yet how do they know the rcs of the pak-fa which is a secret? Do you remember the concept pictures of the pak-fa, well there was an Indian news station claiming that Sukhoi sources told them that it was close to the real thing, which turned out to be a totally incorrect.

I quote no other reporter, the comment was made by Ajai Shukla himself. As for reliability of his sources, he has been spot on with the Arjun Vs T-90 saga so far. Being from IA, he also inherited a healthy dose of anti-Arjun vitriol, but as the Arjun improved so did its reputation and it has won over quite a few of its earlier detractors.

Broadsword: India, Russia close to agreement on next generation fighter

He is trying to address similar concerns to the one you raised.

Now to get to your other comment regarding the SU-47, the SU-47 was just a prototype/technology demonstrator, only one was build and no improvment were made to it, the SU-47 had a 0.3 rcs from day one, like i mentioned the SU-47 has no LO shaping actually quite the opposite; however, it still acheived a very low rcs just from ram, so explain how a deticated 'stealth' aircraft such as the pak-fa has a bigger rcs than a conventional aircraft? It's not possible.

Well then lets keep su-47 out of this! Ajai & you yourself have acknowledged that T-50 has a long way to go. It is possible that the RCS will see reduction in prototypes coming down the line.

 

[flaming arrow]

Well, I hope India is not using the same assembly line to build both tanks.

I just think that your hard earn money should go the biggest bang. That means use stuff from

Good like with Arjun. The Pakistani guys can't be more happier.

please dnt worry about my money...we are happy the way it is being spent dnt worry about us my dear riend now when their are no trolling words left in tour mouth can we expect a decent talk?????

about pakistani's well iam also happy to know that they will be happy
good for both the nations,,
are u a american arms dealer???? please dont propogate this is not a arms bazaar(market)

 

[Prowler]

First of all relax, i never even mentioned the Arjun, i'm talking about the T-90; secondly, the T-90 was ordered before the Arjun, correct? I also have a strong inclination that the source you posted got its information from Shukla?

I have a problem with people bashing the T-90 saying it can't hit targets, i have proven it can hit targets accurately from a long distance and while on the move, heck a tanker with 20 minutes of experience was able to hit night targets as far away as 3100km!




T-90 - a knol by Anonymous

How does the T-90 do all this ^^^ but fail so bad against the Arjun, makes no sence. like i said earlier the the Arjun is a fine tank and i'm not taking anything away from it, my concern is regarding the T-90's capabilities not the Arjun's, no one has been able to explain how the T-90 did so well in varius trials and even in the hands of unexperienced Indian crews but failed so miserably in trials againt the arjun, how does the T-90 hit all of its targets even by someone that has only 20 minutes experience yet when it's pitted against the Arjun it magical misses targets that even a rookie was able to make (at night) (at 3100km).

If some of you are still having doubts about the T-90's ability to accurately hit tagets then read the following:

Comrade no one is bashing the T-90 here..our Army is definitely not dumb to have bought the T-90 is such large number's but as the saying goes "All things are not perfect" I am sure it had it's drawbacks...Ajai Shukla is not a T-90 basher but he is a veteran in his profession what he said cannot be discredited....the creature comforts on the T-90 are not so good and after long hours in the desert heat there were certain problems with the electronics going kaput....T-90 was designed with Russia and it's climatic conditions in mind...and do you agree if I say that the Russian T-90 are different to the one's on offer to India? If you agree then that might be the case for it loosing against the Arjun in the test.

And everything has it's limitation's.T-90 is no exception

 

[nietzche]

The last time I checked, the average IQ of a white Canadian is 11% higher than that of an Indian. Mind checking again for me?

Arjun is designed as a field tank, because India is not half industrialized, meaning it doesn't drive on roads, thus it needs significantly more power. The Abrams aims at metro warfare; it drives on cement roads. Now, the leopard is not a road tank. It is named so because of its supreme engine at the time (1.5khp over 3 decades ago). And didn't you know? Current Arjuns are powered by 1.4khp engines. The 1.5 ones are still in research. Moreover, field tanks often drive slower, due to the pressure on the engines when acceleration is required to ride over inclined planes, thus, a lower average speed is achieved because the gaschargers need to cool.



1) So are you saying that having more Indian MPs in the government is something to be proud of? And as an Indian, you wish for more Indians to pledge their loyalty to Canada, so they can attain parliament seats?

Now, the naturalization process is much tougher for the Chinese, which is good for China, but definitely not for us. The chances of a Chinese returning to China is much greater than that of an Indian. And the detrimental problem is, the Chinese hold all the high-tech R&D posts in North America. An average Chinese immigrant seeks to learn from the west and return to homeland ("stealing" technology). Why don't Indians return to India after immigration if India is so much greater than China? Furthermore, what can they offer India upon return?

2) How old are you? Human trafficking is cheaper in India. A Chinese/Japanese costs about 500 USD while an Indian costs less than 80 to import (yet there're still so many Indian women who compete to be exported). You're humuliating Indian women, saying that there is no demand for them. Just set your foot on the streets and ask a prostitute. I bet you even want a Chinese/Japanese woman for wife, instead of an Indian, LOL.

FYI: 60% of American post-doc degrees and high tech posts are held by the Chinese. 70% of Subway sandwich workers in Canada are Indian. There are 22 times more research establishments in China than India. 72% of UBC and UT (the two most prestigious universities in Canada; nietzche can testify) students are Chinese. The average IQ of a Chinese is 27% higher than that of an Indian. IQ and Global Inequality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. That is why an average Canadian prefers a Chinese friend over an Indian.

There are just so many more derogatory remarks I can make, but the others would just hurt you guys' "feelings."

hmm...hurt ur ego did it? ...some points

1. By east asians ...ur equating chinese with the japs and koreans ...i am not sure if an avg japanese wud agree with that...after all the japanese dont have much more than contempt for the chinese...here in canada as i am sure u r aware the hong kong chinese dont think much abt their mainland brothers either...


2. by indian ...u mean all south asians ...since pakistanis indians bangladeshis sri lankans are all of more or less the same racial stock...so ur saying the chinese as a race hav 27% more IQ than indians n all south asians...perhaps extending that corollary from those same IQ reports ...more than middle easterners too...wow u guys r the ubermensche... is it all the hakka noodles that pass off for neurons?

3. as for statistics on subway workers , UofT students etc ...hey my local McD has chinese guys (not japanese not korean)..so also my local Loblaws supermkt...they dont drive cabs as south asians as it is an accepted wisdom in canada that the chinese are the worst drivers some issues with seeing where they r going thru slits ... generally of the east asians ...the japs n south koreans r cool the chinese generally close minded...variety of reasons for those..starting with the delusional state in which immigrant mainlanders exist fed on commie propaganda...most chinese cant even talk the local lingo ..most of what they spew sounds like minglish...

4. i am sure u know the chinese ghettos in n around toronto eg. markham..."the whites prefer to be with us chinese" ok...i have no probs with that ...what a variety of white trash does with chinese crap is ur own problem...one instance of this association can be found on theredzone.com. u can also see most of ur UofT n york Univ chinese girls up there strutting their IQ. I personally prefer their high EQ.

Cheers! Enjoy ur weekend

 

[lhuang]

^ there's refuting a point and then theres being racist. Don't lower yourself tyvm

 

[nietzche]

The origin of the source is from shukla, as for you quoting 'reporters' from a blogg, how do you know they are reporters? Better yet how do they know the rcs of the pak-fa which is a secret? Do you remember the concept pictures of the pak-fa, well there was an Indian news station claiming that Sukhoi sources told them that it was close to the real thing, which turned out to be a totally incorrect.

Now to get to your other comment regarding the SU-47, the SU-47 was just a prototype/technology demonstrator, only one was build and no improvment were made to it, the SU-47 had a 0.3 rcs from day one, like i mentioned the SU-47 has no LO shaping actually quite the opposite; however, it still acheived a very low rcs just from ram, so explain how a deticated 'stealth' aircraft such as the pak-fa has a bigger rcs than a conventional aircraft? It's not possible.

i agree col shukla's knowledge on aircrafts are suspect at best...but hey this is a guy who has put in at least 15 yrs in the armored corp working with the T series ...so his reporting as a defence correspondent in a respected magazine such as Business Standard on Tanks can be taken more seriously...re the comparative trials...while the numbers for the mythic warrior look good..the ones for the 90s kid r shocking...hitting just 50% good shots at high noon...there is something amiss there.

 

[nietzche]

^ there's refuting a point and then theres being racist. Don't lower yourself tyvm

my friend...we work with a variety of ppl from different nationalities n ethnicities...having travelled n worked around the globe one learns to accept n appreciate the strengths as well as the weaknesses of others n thats how it is...belittling the intelligence of others is not wisdom...nor is it an asian tradition.

thanks

 

[karan.1970]

I dont know why this is being made into a T 90 vs Arjun.. If ever its going to be T-90+T-72+Arjun vs Al Khalid + T80 + Al-Zarrars