beckham
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Any credible + neutral source will do.
It would be more appreciated If you post something constructive of your own and back it with sufficient sources.
Arjun News & Discussions
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Any credible + neutral source will do.
It would be more appreciated If you post something constructive of your own and back it with sufficient sources.
Icarus
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Well, this is about as credible and as neutral as it gets on the world wide web.
Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is the sabotage point you criticised:
September 2007 winter trials:
Starting with the September 2007 winter trials, the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including at least four engine failures.
DRDO, on the other hand, insisted the tank was a viable choice for adoption and suggested the unsatisfactory performance of the engine during the winter trials was due to sabotage.
Off Topic: You are from Kerala ? How is it like there ? I had to do a project on Indian geography and collected pictures of Kerala for the assignment, looked like a really nice place.
beckham
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Defence Ministry claimed it suspected an effort at "sabotaging" Arjun tanks by some internal elements for selecting T-90's over it.Not by any Pakistani spies.
Btw, All the problems related to Engine,FCS etc have been rectified.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/44475-arjun-mbt-take-t-90-a-3.html#post627509
Yupe,
"Gods own country "
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Icarus
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Defence Ministry claimed it suspected an effort at "sabotaging" Arjun tanks by some internal elements for selecting T-90's over it.Not by any Pakistani spies.
Btw, All the problems related to Engine,FCS etc have been rectified.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/44475-arjun-mbt-take-t-90-a-3.html#post627509
Yupe,
"Gods own country "
That statement I believe will undergo it's baptism through fire during this comparison with the T-90.
Either way though, it's India's win because both tanks are theirs !!!!
Well in all honesty, the forum has become a battleground for personalised insults and unnecessary slander so your post was a refresher
the issue is that Arjun Mk. I is dead for all purposes, irrespective of all trials they may have subsequently. The trials are being done purely under political pressure.
But yes Arjun Project as a whole can not and will not be scrapped ... Mk II will be in offing as India plans to induct next generation of tank (T-95 is another consideration as is rumor of M1A3) so if DRDO can pull up and improve its work, the same may still be inducted
But we have to keep in mind that even if this was to happen, an ICV for the same in mech/armoured forces usage has to be made .... still some way off
In addition lets not forget the Indian political scenario where only thing needed to stop a weapon platform from being inducted is to scream scam/kickback/bribe and the whole thing is scrapped forever and delays set in for 4-5 years by which time the tech is obsolete ...
So am unsure where India is headed as of yet ......
well sabotage is just public mud slingging the same could not be proved ...... its like Indian politicians blaming things right and left ......
RPK
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http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/russia%5Cs-t-90-vs-india\s-arjun/384353/
Russia's T-90 vs India's Arjun
Next month, India’s homegrown Arjun tank will take on the new Russian T-90 in a long-awaited comparative trial.
The outcome could decide whether the Indian Army will ride Indian tanks into future battles or continue its reliance upon a heavily criticised fleet of Russian T-72 tanks, which even the army chief admits is 80 per cent blind at night, when most tank battles occur.
The army’s Bikaner-headquartered 24 Infantry Division will conduct the month-long trials in the desert expanses around Bikaner, Suratgarh and Pokhran. A squadron (14 tanks) of the Arjun will be pitted against a T-90 squadron. Both will be evaluated by day and by night, comparing their abilities to speed through rugged, sand-dune-infested terrain; to fire accurately even while moving; their abilities to operate for long periods over long distances; and the fatigue they impose on their crews.
The declared aim of the comparative trial, surprisingly, is not to identify the better tank. The army claims the T-90 is not on trial; instead, the strengths and weaknesses of the Arjun are being evaluated, to help the army decide what operational role the Arjun could play, and which sector of the border it could effectively operate in.
But the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) — which has developed the Arjun tank at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE) at Chennai — insists that if the Arjun performs well against the vaunted T-90, the army will be forced to order the Indian tank in larger numbers. Arjuns could start replacing the T-72, while the T-90 remains in service for another three decades.
So far, the army has only ordered 124 Arjuns for its 4,000-tank fleet. An incensed DRDO has long demanded comparative trials against the T-72, and the newer T-90, to prove the Arjun’s quality. Trials were scheduled, and then postponed, because of a shortage of Arjun ammunition. With the ammunition now available the army, significantly, has withdrawn the T-72 from the trials.
“The army knows that the T-72 would have performed very poorly in trials against the Arjun”, complains a senior DRDO officer. “Despite that, the army continues to sink money into its 2400 outdated T-72s. Any comparative trial with the T-72 would make it clear that the Arjun should replace the T-72.”
But there is also concern about the subjectivity of trials involving an entire squadron in tactical manoeuvres. Major General HM Singh (retired), the father of the Arjun, says, “It is impossible to measure the tactical performance of 14 tanks. There are too many variables, including the skill of the tank crews and coloured perceptions of the judges. A comparative trial should be a scientific comparison of each tanks’ physical performance in identical situations.”
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has not responded to an emailed questionnaire from Business Standard on the comparative trials and the condition of the T-72 tank fleet.
Meanwhile, the Arjun is ready for production in larger numbers, with a production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai established at a cost of Rs 50 crores. Capable of producing 20 Arjuns annually, it has already equipped India’s first Arjun unit, 43 Armoured Regiment. Now, a second unit, 75 Armoured Regiment, is being converted to the Arjun.
But that is as far as the army is prepared to accept the Arjun. According to the army’s long-term plan, which Business Standard has accessed, no more Arjuns are planned. Instead, the army will field equal numbers of T-90s and T-72s for the next 15 years, spending thousands of crores on extending the life of the T-72.
But these trials, despite the reservations about their relevance, are the moment of truth for the Indian tank. A strong performance by the Arjun will force the army to redo its maths. Conspicuous failure, on the other hand, could cap the programme at just 124 tanks
Russia's T-90 vs India's Arjun
Next month, India’s homegrown Arjun tank will take on the new Russian T-90 in a long-awaited comparative trial.
The outcome could decide whether the Indian Army will ride Indian tanks into future battles or continue its reliance upon a heavily criticised fleet of Russian T-72 tanks, which even the army chief admits is 80 per cent blind at night, when most tank battles occur.
The army’s Bikaner-headquartered 24 Infantry Division will conduct the month-long trials in the desert expanses around Bikaner, Suratgarh and Pokhran. A squadron (14 tanks) of the Arjun will be pitted against a T-90 squadron. Both will be evaluated by day and by night, comparing their abilities to speed through rugged, sand-dune-infested terrain; to fire accurately even while moving; their abilities to operate for long periods over long distances; and the fatigue they impose on their crews.
The declared aim of the comparative trial, surprisingly, is not to identify the better tank. The army claims the T-90 is not on trial; instead, the strengths and weaknesses of the Arjun are being evaluated, to help the army decide what operational role the Arjun could play, and which sector of the border it could effectively operate in.
But the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) — which has developed the Arjun tank at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE) at Chennai — insists that if the Arjun performs well against the vaunted T-90, the army will be forced to order the Indian tank in larger numbers. Arjuns could start replacing the T-72, while the T-90 remains in service for another three decades.
So far, the army has only ordered 124 Arjuns for its 4,000-tank fleet. An incensed DRDO has long demanded comparative trials against the T-72, and the newer T-90, to prove the Arjun’s quality. Trials were scheduled, and then postponed, because of a shortage of Arjun ammunition. With the ammunition now available the army, significantly, has withdrawn the T-72 from the trials.
“The army knows that the T-72 would have performed very poorly in trials against the Arjun”, complains a senior DRDO officer. “Despite that, the army continues to sink money into its 2400 outdated T-72s. Any comparative trial with the T-72 would make it clear that the Arjun should replace the T-72.”
But there is also concern about the subjectivity of trials involving an entire squadron in tactical manoeuvres. Major General HM Singh (retired), the father of the Arjun, says, “It is impossible to measure the tactical performance of 14 tanks. There are too many variables, including the skill of the tank crews and coloured perceptions of the judges. A comparative trial should be a scientific comparison of each tanks’ physical performance in identical situations.”
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has not responded to an emailed questionnaire from Business Standard on the comparative trials and the condition of the T-72 tank fleet.
Meanwhile, the Arjun is ready for production in larger numbers, with a production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai established at a cost of Rs 50 crores. Capable of producing 20 Arjuns annually, it has already equipped India’s first Arjun unit, 43 Armoured Regiment. Now, a second unit, 75 Armoured Regiment, is being converted to the Arjun.
But that is as far as the army is prepared to accept the Arjun. According to the army’s long-term plan, which Business Standard has accessed, no more Arjuns are planned. Instead, the army will field equal numbers of T-90s and T-72s for the next 15 years, spending thousands of crores on extending the life of the T-72.
But these trials, despite the reservations about their relevance, are the moment of truth for the Indian tank. A strong performance by the Arjun will force the army to redo its maths. Conspicuous failure, on the other hand, could cap the programme at just 124 tanks
conworldus
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How exactly do you conduct this trial anyway? Pitting them against each other in a death match?
mrwarrior006
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^^^^its alll simulation
objectives,conditions and scenario are given to both and then their performance are judjed by their responses
objectives,conditions and scenario are given to both and then their performance are judjed by their responses
RPK
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Army to spend billions on outdated T-72 tanks
Army to spend billions on outdated T-72 tanks
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 3, 2010, 2:48 IST
Foreign upgrade for T-72 chosen over indigenous Arjun tank
The Indian Army chief’s concern that India’s tank fleet was largely incapable of fighting at night highlighted only a part of the problem with the Russian T-72, the army’s main tank. In fact, the T-72 is in far worse shape than General Deepak Kapoor let on last month.
Another signal of the T-72’s obsolescence was its recent withdrawal, by the army’s Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), from next month’s comparative trials with the indigenous Arjun tank. An embarrassed DGMF has realised that, without major refurbishing, the T-72 was not in the Arjun’s class.
But in the army’s long-term planning, the T-72 — which the more advanced T-90 will replace only gradually — will continue to equip almost half of the army’s 59 tank regiments as far in the future as 2022.
Business Standard has accessed a sheaf of technical reports and funding requests that actually quantify the state of the T-72. Exactly 32 years have passed since the first T-72s arrived in India; army guidelines stipulate 32 years as the service life of a tank. The earliest tanks from the army’s 2,418-strong T-72 inventory should have already been retired, making way for a more modern tank, such as the T-90 or the Arjun.
Instead, the DGMF — longstanding advocates of Russian equipment — plans to spend Rs 5 crore per T-72, hoping to add another 15-20 years to that tank’s service life by replacing crucial systems, such as its fire control system, main engine and night vision devices.
The military’s Annual Acquisition Plan for 2008-2010 (AAP 2008-10) lists out the cost of modernising the T-72 fleet as follows:
•New 1000-horsepower engines (identical to the T-90 tank) to replace the T-72’s old 780-horsepower engines. The cost of each engine: Rs 3 crore.
•Thermal Imaging Fire Control Systems (TIFCS) that will allow the T-72 gunners to observe and fight at night. Each TIFCS will cost Rs 1.4 crore.
•Thermal Imaging (TI) sights to provide T-72 tank commanders with night vision. Each TI sight costs Rs 0.4 crore.
•An auxillary power unit (APU) to generate power for the tank’s electrical systems. Each APU will cost Rs 0.16 crore.
The Rs 5-crore cost of upgrading each T-72 knocks out the argument that the T-72 — at Rs 9 crore apiece — is value-for-money. Retrofitting upgraded systems will escalate the cost of the T-72 to Rs 14 crore. In contrast, a new Arjun, with a 1,500 horsepower engine, state-of-the-art integrated electronics, and the indigenous, widely praised Kanchan armour, can be had for a marginally more expensive Rs 16.8 crore.
“It is folly to stick with Russian tanks despite having developed the Arjun, and the design capability to continuously improve it?” says Lt Gen Ajai Singh, who headed the army’s Directorate of Combat Vehicles before becoming Governor of Assam. “India can tailor the Arjun to our specific requirements and continuously upgrade the tank to keep it state-of-the-art. Why upgrade old T-72s? It is time to bring in the Arjun.”
The T-72’s galloping obsolescence is magnified by the MoD’s failure to overhaul tanks on schedule: Some 800 T-72s are years overdue for overhaul. Originally, each T-72 was to be overhauled twice during its service life of 32 years. But as the overhaul agencies — the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi; and 505 Army Base Workshop, Delhi — failed to meet their overhaul targets of 70 and 50 tanks, respectively, the army decided that one overhaul was good enough. And, with even that schedule not implemented, a desperate MoD has approached Indian industry to play a role in overhauling the T-72 fleet.
The total expenditure on the T-72 tank, budgeted for AAP 2008-10, is over Rs 5000 crore. The cost of overhaul has not been accurately determined
Army to spend billions on outdated T-72 tanks
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 3, 2010, 2:48 IST
Foreign upgrade for T-72 chosen over indigenous Arjun tank
The Indian Army chief’s concern that India’s tank fleet was largely incapable of fighting at night highlighted only a part of the problem with the Russian T-72, the army’s main tank. In fact, the T-72 is in far worse shape than General Deepak Kapoor let on last month.
Another signal of the T-72’s obsolescence was its recent withdrawal, by the army’s Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), from next month’s comparative trials with the indigenous Arjun tank. An embarrassed DGMF has realised that, without major refurbishing, the T-72 was not in the Arjun’s class.
But in the army’s long-term planning, the T-72 — which the more advanced T-90 will replace only gradually — will continue to equip almost half of the army’s 59 tank regiments as far in the future as 2022.
Business Standard has accessed a sheaf of technical reports and funding requests that actually quantify the state of the T-72. Exactly 32 years have passed since the first T-72s arrived in India; army guidelines stipulate 32 years as the service life of a tank. The earliest tanks from the army’s 2,418-strong T-72 inventory should have already been retired, making way for a more modern tank, such as the T-90 or the Arjun.
Instead, the DGMF — longstanding advocates of Russian equipment — plans to spend Rs 5 crore per T-72, hoping to add another 15-20 years to that tank’s service life by replacing crucial systems, such as its fire control system, main engine and night vision devices.
The military’s Annual Acquisition Plan for 2008-2010 (AAP 2008-10) lists out the cost of modernising the T-72 fleet as follows:
•New 1000-horsepower engines (identical to the T-90 tank) to replace the T-72’s old 780-horsepower engines. The cost of each engine: Rs 3 crore.
•Thermal Imaging Fire Control Systems (TIFCS) that will allow the T-72 gunners to observe and fight at night. Each TIFCS will cost Rs 1.4 crore.
•Thermal Imaging (TI) sights to provide T-72 tank commanders with night vision. Each TI sight costs Rs 0.4 crore.
•An auxillary power unit (APU) to generate power for the tank’s electrical systems. Each APU will cost Rs 0.16 crore.
The Rs 5-crore cost of upgrading each T-72 knocks out the argument that the T-72 — at Rs 9 crore apiece — is value-for-money. Retrofitting upgraded systems will escalate the cost of the T-72 to Rs 14 crore. In contrast, a new Arjun, with a 1,500 horsepower engine, state-of-the-art integrated electronics, and the indigenous, widely praised Kanchan armour, can be had for a marginally more expensive Rs 16.8 crore.
“It is folly to stick with Russian tanks despite having developed the Arjun, and the design capability to continuously improve it?” says Lt Gen Ajai Singh, who headed the army’s Directorate of Combat Vehicles before becoming Governor of Assam. “India can tailor the Arjun to our specific requirements and continuously upgrade the tank to keep it state-of-the-art. Why upgrade old T-72s? It is time to bring in the Arjun.”
The T-72’s galloping obsolescence is magnified by the MoD’s failure to overhaul tanks on schedule: Some 800 T-72s are years overdue for overhaul. Originally, each T-72 was to be overhauled twice during its service life of 32 years. But as the overhaul agencies — the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi; and 505 Army Base Workshop, Delhi — failed to meet their overhaul targets of 70 and 50 tanks, respectively, the army decided that one overhaul was good enough. And, with even that schedule not implemented, a desperate MoD has approached Indian industry to play a role in overhauling the T-72 fleet.
The total expenditure on the T-72 tank, budgeted for AAP 2008-10, is over Rs 5000 crore. The cost of overhaul has not been accurately determined
Insane
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Among India's Armed forces the ARMY is in the worst shape and the modernization is really slow. Wot worries me the most is they are also the most conservative when it comes to supporting domestic industry. I mean, not that you have the best tanks in the world so you are not giving ARJUN it's share. I think the ARJUN deserves atleast 250 more orders if billions are being spent on a T-72 upgrades.
Clearly ARMY needs to pull up its socks and change its outlook for the ARMED forces to be effective as a combination. I am so badly waiting for the results of the T-90 showdown with ARJUN.
Clearly ARMY needs to pull up its socks and change its outlook for the ARMED forces to be effective as a combination. I am so badly waiting for the results of the T-90 showdown with ARJUN.
gogbot
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New Arjuns should be ordered to replace T-72's.
That alone is enough.
They can get as many T-90's as they want. But its redundant to beat life into a on old tank(t-72 upgrades) when there is a brand new one all ready waiting in the wings
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Trisonics
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Indian Army's logistcs chain is built around the T-72s and T-90, atleast they have been sure about that, while it may be a good idea now to replace the T-72 with Arjun, what about the all the new logistics?
With all due respect to the Ajun as a tank, it sure is creating more problems than solving them
Kansu
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Indian Army's logistcs chain is built around the T-72s and T-90, atleast they have been sure about that, while it may be a good idea now to replace the T-72 with Arjun, what about the all the new logistics?
With all due respect to the Ajun as a tank, it sure is creating more problems than solving them
i completely agree mate. what about new logistics chain? Arjun is heavier than the endurance limits of most of the bridges in india. And how do you plan to use such a tank in such a geography? Nevermind the other problems... i think Project Arjun was born dead. no need to insist to give it life. t-90 is a better option. if India dont want to depend on russians so much, you may try T-84 Yatagan from Ukraine. it is a nice toy with its 120mm gun
i completely agree mate. what about new logistics chain? Arjun is heavier than the endurance limits of most of the bridges in india. And how do you plan to use such a tank in such a geography? Nevermind the other problems... i think Project Arjun was born dead. no need to insist to give it life. t-90 is a better option. if India dont want to depend on russians so much, you may try T-84 Yatagan from Ukraine. it is a nice toy with its 120mm gun
Army is Known to be Foreign Puddy , One can recall how they dont want world class Brahmos missile against American missile
2) Akash Anti Aircraft Missile which Army refuses and Air force Accepted as good missile.
Same with the Tank and Old Army Personal is trained with Russian Tank and they cant handle advance tank like arjun that's why they prefer old of tank instead of Arjun.
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