Arjun Mark II : An Israeli View [ Must Read ]

[angeldemon_007]

I think tank-ex was also good. The only problem with that was the use of T72 chassis which we would have to import from Russia.

 

[DesiGuy]

tanks are history now....don't know why India-Pakistan are still so interested in buying those heavy stuff..

 

[Kinetic]

I think tank-ex was also good. The only problem with that was the use of T72 chassis which we would have to import from Russia.

Its good but lacks the hydropneumatic suspension of Arjun, that gives higher accuracy and superior cross country ride. But it could be an option for T-72 upgrades. Though buying new Arjun tanks will be much better.

 

[Kinetic]

tanks are history now....don't know why India-Pakistan are still so interested in buying those heavy stuff..

What are you talking about? Tanks are the king of land warfare. In recent time during Gulf war II and South Ossetia they have been used extensively. They have much uses along Indo-Pak border region of Punjab, Rajasthan-Gujarat.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

tanks are history now....don't know why India-Pakistan are still so interested in buying those heavy stuff..

Man then tell me what is used to punch holes in the enemy defence lines and how are planning to take heavy fire to the opponent's field?

Tanks win wars...it is going to happen for the next 100 years.

 

[GodlessBastard]

tanks are history now....

What are you going to use instead to provide heavy support and "staying power" for troops on the ground?

APCs?

 

[angeldemon_007]

tanks are history now....don't know why India-Pakistan are still so interested in buying those heavy stuff..

The same reason why every other country which have the capability to develop a MBT is working on Future version of their MBTs...

 

[nightcrawler]

A rifled bore is nothing but a rifled gun enlarged. It has a groove inside it which induces torque in the projectile while firing it, to improve its accuracy in long range flight.
Whereas a smooth bore does not have any grooves inside it and hence don't induce torque to the projectile.
The downside of using a rifled gun is that the grooves get worn out pretty soon and hence have to replace it frequently.

I was briefed about the hydraulic system of the Arjun last week by the man who designed it himself and I tel you. It is the best in the world. But I cant provide you guys any links for it.

sir your technical aspects over rifled/smooth concept totally sucks; educate urself here...
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/56759-insight-into-al-khalid-ii-mbt-5.html#post871532
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/87193-pakistani-war-horse-al-khalid-5.html#post1455659

 

[nightcrawler]

From reading whole of this forum the Indian Fire of comments seems understandable & more still predictable from my side.
Explanation: As far as I know the Macro elements of Arjun are still inferior to Pakistan Al-Khalid's which includes its overweight; & by the weight parameter its much bulky & heavy, more still its rifled turrent which is too obsolete for modern rounds [Russian/Western]. On the other side what Israel is elaborating is just Shadowing these weaknesses with Israeli designed [& obviously state-of-art] Micro elements!! That includes range-finders, target interceptors the likes of 'Iron Dome' & by far the much advanced camouflaging of tanks IR signature..

In conclusion it camn be said that Indian generals are now finding alternative goodies[electronic gadgets] to hide away their technical failures as is pointed above

 

[GORKHALI]

From reading whole of this forum the Indian Fire of comments seems understandable & more still predictable from my side.
Explanation: As far as I know the Macro elements of Arjun are still inferior to Pakistan Al-Khalid's which includes its overweight; & by the weight parameter its much bulky & heavy, more still its rifled turrent which is too obsolete for modern rounds [Russian/Western]. On the other side what Israel is elaborating is just Shadowing these weaknesses with Israeli designed [& obviously state-of-art] Micro elements!! That includes range-finders, target interceptors the likes of 'Iron Dome' & by far the much advanced camouflaging of tanks IR signature..

In conclusion it camn be said that Indian generals are now finding alternative goodies[electronic gadgets] to hide away their technical failures as is pointed above

Arjun and other heavier tanks like challenger,abhram ,leo 2 are inferior to Al khalid because they weigh more than Al khalid ,they are much better in firepower,better armour etc etc..

 

[ganimi kawa]

Explanation:

1. As far as I know the Macro elements of Arjun are still inferior to Pakistan Al-Khalid's which includes its overweight; & by the weight parameter its much bulky & heavy, more still its rifled turrent which is too obsolete for modern rounds [Russian/Western].

2.On the other side what Israel is elaborating is just Shadowing these weaknesses with Israeli designed [& obviously state-of-art] Micro elements!! That includes range-finders, target interceptors the likes of 'Iron Dome' & by far the much advanced camouflaging of tanks IR signature..

3.In conclusion it camn be said that Indian generals are now finding alternative goodies[electronic gadgets] to hide away their technical failures as is pointed above

1. AFAI could understand this post, your "macro elements" are just weight and rifled cannon (not turret).

a. Weight--- Arjun is a heavy tank because that is what was demanded by the army GSQR. What you forgot was that the Arjun has an equally heavy engine to power it through!

The manueverabilty of a tank is determined not by the weight but by the power to weight ratio.

With Power/weight of 23.9hp/tonne Arjun is comparable to any tank out there (al khalid 26).

Also, the Ground Pressure of Arjun @ 11.9 PSI is lower than almost all other MBTs out there includin the AK except Leo 2 (11.8 PSI).

The top speed of Arjun is 72kmph on road and 40 km cross country, Al Khalid is no better.

Now, where is the so called "weight" macro element advantage?


b. Rifled Gun---

Rifled or smooth bore is a huge debate with pros and cons on both sides. Majority have opted for the smooth bore, though a few like Challanger mbt swear by the rifled bore!

AFA a gun can meet the parameters set by the army, the nature of the gun becomes a matter of choice by the user. IA is happy with the Arjun gun and that should be enough!

Regarding using the US/ Russian ammo., there is no need! We have developed all the rounds (APFSDS, HEAT ,HESH etc) for Arjun locally and they work very well!

The rifled gun of Arjun has huge variety of Indian firepower at it's disposal.



There goes another "macro element"!




2. First of all, Iron Dome is not a tank based interceptor!

Also, the so called "micro elements" are the real game changers in a war! Ask any tank man!

Also, majority of these developments are Indian and not Israeli. Check out the earlier posts of me and Karthik Sri (I've based mine on DSS 2010, GoI)



3. Please elaborate the "technical faliures", if you can find any. Last time I heard Arjun was proving it's mettle against the T90. Doesn't sound like a "technical faliure" to me!



Added later, here is a pic of Cannon launched guided missile (CLMDP), a new ATGM for the rifled gun of Arjun being developed to replace the LAHAT!

 

[KS]

HIT Al Khalid / Type 90-II / MBT 2000 - Main Battle Tank - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Tanks, Vehicles and Artillery

And the reason for this post ?? I have already proved that Arjun is only slightly less capable in some features but at the same time better than it other important aspects like armor,suspension etc.

You could have just spared us all some un-necessary copy pasting which we already know.

Funny to see all the internet fanboys thumping each other on the back. Also funny to see excuses ranging from corruption to infrastructure as the reason why the Arjun factory is desperate for orders.

Funny to see some senior fanbois being unable to digest that Arjun is indeed on par with their sooper dooper Al-Khalid when more number of Arjuns are ordered than the total number of Al Khalids (248 to 220) with more orders on the pipeline once Mk II is completed

Bottom line: Until the Indian Army shows confidence in the Arjun by ordering thousands of units, all the internet fanboy blabbering is worthless.

Jurnail saab, who said only numbers indicate Army's willingness. There are much more factors than mere numbers that indicate an Army's willingness which a tunnel vision cannot see.

The tank infra (portable bridges, tank carriers, rail lines etc etc) of India is based on the Russian tanks for the last 60 years and unless they are developed (and they are indeed being developed) you will not see orders for Arjun. Because with out the suppporting infra a tank alone, however good it might be cannot be uused to its optimum capability. Once they are finished, after two or three years, the real mass production of Arjun begins.

Till then be happy.

 

[Kinetic]

Sir I am afraid you are misinformed; this shows that Indians are not capable enough to produces domestically their own self-stabilising rounds.


Rifling only was necessary to stabilise the trajectory of warhead but times change & the fins/electronics employed within the structure of projectile is more than enough to stabilise it in its trajectory; so no rifling is necessary nowadays provided you are capable enough to produce modern rounds which Pakistan already has!!

Where did you got the info that India doesn't developed and produce APFSDS/FSAPDS? This is old news, now India develoed Shaped charge warheads for the Active protection system for Arjun.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

From reading whole of this forum the Indian Fire of comments seems understandable & more still predictable from my side.
Explanation: As far as I know the Macro elements of Arjun are still inferior to Pakistan Al-Khalid's which includes its overweight; & by the weight parameter its much bulky & heavy, more still its rifled turrent which is too obsolete for modern rounds [Russian/Western]. On the other side what Israel is elaborating is just Shadowing these weaknesses with Israeli designed [& obviously state-of-art] Micro elements!! That includes range-finders, target interceptors the likes of 'Iron Dome' & by far the much advanced camouflaging of tanks IR signature..

In conclusion it camn be said that Indian generals are now finding alternative goodies[electronic gadgets] to hide away their technical failures as is pointed above

You must be kidding right...You are comparing a 40t tank with a 60t class of tank. Dont know the advantages of a rifled bore over smooth bore, The power powered for avionics by the engine, the ground pressure, ease of maintainance, armour thickness.

Please dont compare Arjun with Al-Khald. You can compare Al-khalid with the modernized T 72s and the earlier T 90s but comparing it with Arjun is Futile...

 

[Developereo]

Because with out the suppporting infra a tank alone, however good it might be cannot be uused to its optimum capability. Once they are finished, after two or three years, the real mass production of Arjun begins.

So the tank, as developed, as unfit for India's current infrastructure. A product, however good in the reviews, has limited usefulness if it doesn't fit the customer's broad needs and capabilities. At the end of the day, it is the Indian army, not Israeli fanboys, who will write the checks.

It almost sounds like the Arjun was developed by tech geeks in a basement with contemptuous disregard for the Indian army's real life parameters.

Note that it doesn't matter that the infra will be ready in a few years. By that time, tank technology will have moved on and the Arjun will be obsolete; it will be time to look at Arjun 2.