Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen

[SMI]

we should move to invent on most recent weapons

 

[MZUBAIR]

Till now we have found many things similar to JF-17 and Gripen (on paper). But yes there is a question of Quality betweeb both of them as said by Sir MASTANKHAN.............Lets talk abt the generation capability of there 2 AC's.

Generation capability of JF-17 & JAS Gripen 30


1) JF-17 and Gripen are both Aircraft classified as fourth-generation jet fighters are those in service approximately from 1980 to 2010.Fourth-generation designs are heavily influenced by lessons learned from the previous generation of combat aircraft.

2)The rapid advance of microcomputers in the 1980s and 1990s permitted rapid upgrades to the avionics over the lifetimes of these fighters, incorporating system upgrades such as AESA, digital avionics buses and IRST. Due to the dramatic enhancement of capabilities in these upgraded fighters and in new designs of the 1990s that reflected these new capabilities, the designation 4.5th generation is sometimes used to refer to these later designs. It is intended to reflect a class of fighters that are evolutionary upgrades of the 4th generation to incorporate integrated avionics suite, advanced weapons and elements of stealth technology (though not true stealth capability). The United States Government defines 4.5 generation fighter aircraft as fourth generation jet fighters that have been upgraded with AESA radar, high capacity data-link, enhanced avionics, and "the ability to deploy current and reasonably foreseeable advanced armaments. In this nither JF-17 falls nor Gripen (because Grippen is still without AESA radar)

3)4th generation Performance capability
Capable to fire (beyond visual range or BVR) or short range (within visual range or WVR) weapons. JF-17 and Gripen both can do that

JF-17 and Gripen Both can fire IR-guided missiles

4th generation AC's interception ability requires excellent linear speed, while WVR engagements require excellent turn rate and acceleration. Both JF-17 and Gripen have these abilities.

Both JF-17 and Gripen have Air combat manoeuvring (also spelled: Air combat maneuvering, or ACM) all 4th generation combat maneuvarables.

The Fourth generation jet fighter defining point is fly-by-wire ,like 4.5 is defined on AESA radar and both JF-17 and Gripen have these abilities. FBW also called also called "relaxed static stability" (RSS).

4) Thrust vectoring
Thrust vectoring is a new technology being introduced to further enhance a fighter's turning ability. By redirecting the jet exhaust, it is possible to directly translate the engine's power into directional changes, more efficiently than via the plane's control surfaces. Both AC's have this ability

5) Speed

Supercruise is the ability of aircraft to cruise efficiently at supersonic speeds without the afterburner. Both AC's have this ability

6) Avionics

Avionics is a catch-all term for the electronic systems aboard an aircraft, which have been growing in complexity and importance. The main elements of an aircraft's avionics are its communication and navigation systems, sensors (Radar and IR sensors), computers and data bus, and user interface. Because they can be readily swapped out as new technologies become available, they are often upgraded over the lifetime of an aircraft. Both AC's have this ability

IRST with missile lock on is in GRIPEN but not in JF-17

Both AC's have FLIR 's

7) Stealth technology
The use of computer-aided shaping, combined with radar-absorbent materials, produced aircraft of drastically reduced radar cross section (RCS) that were much more difficult to detect on radar. Both AC's have this ability

___________________________________________________________


I think there is almost every thing in JF-17 as a 4th generation AC execpt IRST and latest Air to Air weapons suite. But we should also keep this thing in out mind that the first batch which we know is dedicated for ground support........so lets see ground support capability of these 2 AC's

Ground Role Capability of JF-17 and Gripen

JF-17
Air to Surface
Anti-radiation missiles : MAR-1
Anti-ship missiles: AM-39 Exocet
Cruise missiles: Ra'ad ALCM

Unguided bombs:
Mk-82, Mk-84 general purpose bombs
Matra Durandal anti-runway bomb
CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye anti-armour cluster bomb

Precision guided munitions (PGM):

GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2 laser-guided bombs
H-2, H-4 electro-optically guided,
LS-6 satellite-guided glide bombs Satellite-guided bombs

Gripen
4× Rb.75
2× KEPD.350 (Long-range air-to-surface missile)
4× GBU-12 Paveway II laser-guided bomb (similar in JF-17)
4× rocket pods 13.5 cm rockets
2× Rbs.15F anti-ship missile (Fire and forgot lng range)
2× Bk.90 cluster bomb
8× Mark 82 bombs
1× ALQ-TLS ECM pod
__________________________________________________________

Both have very similar and good weapons, I have highlighted prominenet one.

JF-17 lacks Anti ship missile just like RBS-15 for Gripen

_________________________________________________________

There are still gaps that can be improvd when we see complete JF-17 Multirole with A 2 A config.

 

[F86 Saber]

Hi Khalidali,

It is always fascinating ot notice that the mind reads something different than what the eyes see.

You clearly mentioned the condition----NO SANCTIONS----open field day.

Even though I have been extremely critical of the PAF about their procurement---it is open knowledge that the grippen was the aircraft of choice for the PAF. That aircraft fit the profile of the paf like a hand in a glove---.

The reason the paf didnot buy it---if you go by the interview of the ex paf chief---he stated 'we cannot absorb the technology'---now the question is that was he being truthful---or after two years of testing the plane and finally deciding to get it----the swedes said we can't sell it to you---so was that statement from the ACM a face saving statement----it could be.

The u s decided that it would sell pakistan the F 16's or the F 18's---and no sweden cannot sell their aircraft---u s did indeed bless the sale of the eyeriye---but not that of the grippen---otherwise---we would have been driving saabs.

Any honda / toyota / saab / bmw owners on this board---would you buy a chinese car?

You are twisting around the facts, you are saying that the condition set by the thread opener were "No Sanctions" but the fact of the matter is, there are sanctions. You haven't taken into account what i have said, for Gripen, there are not one but two different types of sanctions and had PAF gone for lets say 40-50 Gripens and with the JF-17 program scrapped, where would we be standing now with the sanctions imposed by the Swedes?

And going by your example, the Chinese Geely Automobiles have taken over Volvo, what do you have to say to that?

 

[Mani2020]

That is what ex ACM said regarding Jas Gripen


"This time we got a very attractive offer from US in form of f-16's, You know the gripen is more expensive than f-16.You may also know that gripen is basically designed as an air superiority fighter not a multi role fighter - bomber it doesnot have that capability,infact they are now thinking of goin to a new version which will be grippen NG which will carry more fuel,carry more weapons and will be a truely multirole aircraft,Than gripen international has got three stakeholders the US,UK and Sweeden and that is also an area of concerned because we have been bitten many times and therefore we have to be assured of continued support."

For your confirmation you can check out this interview[/B

 

[F86 Saber]

Any honda / toyota / saab / bmw owners on this board---would you buy a chinese car?

Here's a question back at you, why would a person who is able to spend close to 15 million rupees to buy a BMW 7 series go for a 5 hundred thousand Rupee Cherry QQ (The only Chinese car available in the Pakistan Market). While if a person with only 5 hundred thousand in the pocket has an option to go for a Cherry QQ (backed with after sales services having air bags, power windows and steering and alloy rim) even if it made in China.

I have a better example to give in the same context. These days there are a lot of less expensive replica's of expensive mobiles (e.g N-73, Black Berries Bold, Iphone 2g) available in the market. These mobiles are made in China, although the software and functionality is not upto the standard of the original, but are 10 times less expensive as compared to the originals. A lot of people who cannot afford the original expensive ones are going for these Chinese Replicas.

 

[farhan_9909]

Till now we have found many things similar to JF-17 and Gripen (on paper). But yes there is a question of Quality betweeb both of them as said by Sir MASTANKHAN.............Lets talk abt the generation capability of there 2 AC's.

Generation capability of JF-17 & JAS Gripen 30


1) JF-17 and Gripen are both Aircraft classified as fourth-generation jet fighters are those in service approximately from 1980 to 2010.Fourth-generation designs are heavily influenced by lessons learned from the previous generation of combat aircraft.

2)The rapid advance of microcomputers in the 1980s and 1990s permitted rapid upgrades to the avionics over the lifetimes of these fighters, incorporating system upgrades such as AESA, digital avionics buses and IRST. Due to the dramatic enhancement of capabilities in these upgraded fighters and in new designs of the 1990s that reflected these new capabilities, the designation 4.5th generation is sometimes used to refer to these later designs. It is intended to reflect a class of fighters that are evolutionary upgrades of the 4th generation to incorporate integrated avionics suite, advanced weapons and elements of stealth technology (though not true stealth capability). The United States Government defines 4.5 generation fighter aircraft as fourth generation jet fighters that have been upgraded with AESA radar, high capacity data-link, enhanced avionics, and "the ability to deploy current and reasonably foreseeable advanced armaments. In this nither JF-17 falls nor Gripen (because Grippen is still without AESA radar)

3)4th generation Performance capability
Capable to fire (beyond visual range or BVR) or short range (within visual range or WVR) weapons. JF-17 and Gripen both can do that

JF-17 and Gripen Both can fire IR-guided missiles

4th generation AC's interception ability requires excellent linear speed, while WVR engagements require excellent turn rate and acceleration. Both JF-17 and Gripen have these abilities.

Both JF-17 and Gripen have Air combat manoeuvring (also spelled: Air combat maneuvering, or ACM) all 4th generation combat maneuvarables.

The Fourth generation jet fighter defining point is fly-by-wire ,like 4.5 is defined on AESA radar and both JF-17 and Gripen have these abilities. FBW also called also called "relaxed static stability" (RSS).

4) Thrust vectoring
Thrust vectoring is a new technology being introduced to further enhance a fighter's turning ability. By redirecting the jet exhaust, it is possible to directly translate the engine's power into directional changes, more efficiently than via the plane's control surfaces. Both AC's have this ability

5) Speed

Supercruise is the ability of aircraft to cruise efficiently at supersonic speeds without the afterburner. Both AC's have this ability

6) Avionics

Avionics is a catch-all term for the electronic systems aboard an aircraft, which have been growing in complexity and importance. The main elements of an aircraft's avionics are its communication and navigation systems, sensors (Radar and IR sensors), computers and data bus, and user interface. Because they can be readily swapped out as new technologies become available, they are often upgraded over the lifetime of an aircraft. Both AC's have this ability

IRST with missile lock on is in GRIPEN but not in JF-17

Both AC's have FLIR 's

7) Stealth technology
The use of computer-aided shaping, combined with radar-absorbent materials, produced aircraft of drastically reduced radar cross section (RCS) that were much more difficult to detect on radar. Both AC's have this ability

___________________________________________________________


I think there is almost every thing in JF-17 as a 4th generation AC execpt IRST and latest Air to Air weapons suite. But we should also keep this thing in out mind that the first batch which we know is dedicated for ground support........so lets see ground support capability of these 2 AC's

Ground Role Capability of JF-17 and Gripen

JF-17
Air to Surface
Anti-radiation missiles : MAR-1
Anti-ship missiles: AM-39 Exocet
Cruise missiles: Ra'ad ALCM

Unguided bombs:
Mk-82, Mk-84 general purpose bombs
Matra Durandal anti-runway bomb
CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye anti-armour cluster bomb

Precision guided munitions (PGM):

GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2 laser-guided bombs
H-2, H-4 electro-optically guided,
LS-6 satellite-guided glide bombs Satellite-guided bombs

Gripen
4× Rb.75
2× KEPD.350 (Long-range air-to-surface missile)
4× GBU-12 Paveway II laser-guided bomb (similar in JF-17)
4× rocket pods 13.5 cm rockets
2× Rbs.15F anti-ship missile (Fire and forgot lng range)
2× Bk.90 cluster bomb
8× Mark 82 bombs
1× ALQ-TLS ECM pod
__________________________________________________________

Both have very similar and good weapons, I have highlighted prominenet one.

JF-17 lacks Anti ship missile just like RBS-15 for Gripen

_________________________________________________________

There are still gaps that can be improvd when we see complete JF-17 Multirole with A 2 A config.

Great bro.
What a great info..

bt i want to add one thing

Jf-17 a new fighter while Gripen a decade old

 

[rohailmalhi]

4) Thrust vectoring
Thrust vectoring is a new technology being introduced to further enhance a fighter's turning ability. By redirecting the jet exhaust, it is possible to directly translate the engine's power into directional changes, more efficiently than via the plane's control surfaces.

Really .I dont remember whn did tht happen tht our thunder has thrust vector ability. btw is it 2D or 3D .can u explain it to me .

 

[Crypto]

Hi Khalidali,

Any honda / toyota / saab / bmw owners on this board---would you buy a chinese car?

i agree honda/toyota/saab owners will not buy a Chinese vehicle good example but lets look at this from another perspective.

Now those Chinese cars what tech are they based on? the chasis?, the engine? the electronics? probably their local made??

now look at JF 17 - the airframe based on proven Russian tech but enhanced and modernised!! The engine RD93 proven tech from Mig 29!

Everyone agrees Russian jets are one of the best (lets say its bmw of cars) - now the jf17 is based on that - means a modified bmw for our needs.

concern about avionics is genuine as software plays vital role here as it can make jet from 0 to 100%.

 

[Jigs]

Really .I dont remember whn did tht happen tht our thunder has thrust vector ability. btw is it 2D or 3D .can u explain it to me .

They don't that is false. 2D is when the trust nozzles move up and down. 3D is when it can move all around. They also don't have stealth technology. They also can't Supercruise. Where is this info coming from ?

 

[rohailmalhi]

They don't that is false. 2D is when the trust nozzles move up and down. 3D is when it can move all around. They also don't have stealth technology. They also can't Supercruise. Where is this info coming from ?

Thanks Jigs . I know about the 2D and 3D vectoring .
i actually asked Mzubair tht if it is in JF17 thn wht knid of thrust vectoring did JF17 uses.2D or 3D

But i think none of these coz it dont have thrust vectoring ability.

 

[Jigs]

Gripen has better BVR missiles since it can use AIM-120s. The PS-05/A radar also has a little bit more range to detect a standard fighter then the Thunder's current radar. As far as thrust,range,max speed they are very similar.

 

[cw2005]

There is an advantage by going for JF even without considering the cost and other factors. In the scenario of attrition war, PAF feels better if it can manufacture its own fighter. In addition, manufacture capacity of China might provide another source of fighter that PAF is familiar with. It would even be better that the PLAF would be also using JF so that in case of necessary, PAF simply “borrow” some fighter or take delivery first and pay later. Since the JF could be data linked to the Chinese AWEC, Chinese plane flying within Chinese territory would be able to provide information to PAF at least in the area near the border of these three countries.

No doubt PAF adversary might win an intensive but brief air war, but the question is after winning the air battle, what next? The answers could be easily shown by history of wars between USA and its “Enemy”. I would never underestimate India’s ability and intention. India is trying to catch up and out done China in all area including economic and military strength. And that is its first priority for the time being. Any war with Pakistan would nullify their effort so far or at least delay their intended results.

In summary, I thought there won’t be any all out war between Pakistan and India nor India and China in the coming decade. That is the reason why China is not in a hurry to buy 5 generation fighter but rather to develop its own, knowing that it would take longer time and success is not even guaranteed.

I thought Pakistan should make full use of this peace dividend to develop its industrial base, clear up internal problem and make some money for the people and the country.

 

[M8R]

JF-17 can added as desired to Air Force anytime unlike Gripen where negotiations will go for years etc.JF-17 is much much better options then standard Gripen.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Supposedly there will no sensor fusion between the PAF's Erieye and ZDK03 AEW&C systems (as per latest AFM). Given the high number of JF-17s involved in PAF's modernization plans, there is a possibility that a few squadrons will be equipped to operate with Erieye & F-16 while others with ZDK03 and FC-20. Should such a configuration be pursued, then Link-16 is certainly an option for JF-17. A high-end avionics, radar, ECM/EW, etc, package will certainly bridge the gap with Gripen in many respects.

As for comparing current JF-17 with Gripen-C/D, then we'll need to see specific stats with regards to each fighter's radar, ECM/EW, avionics, weapons-system, etc.

Sir, JF-17s can communicate both with Erieyes as well as ZDK-03, including data transfer also at this point of time, but as you mentioned the both AEW&C platforms won't do data transfer between each other due to some problems, only voice communication.

But here the role of GCS will come in, who will bridge the gap lacking due to non communication between both these AEW&Cs platforms.

GCS will have clear picture and they will control all the fleet.

For now this is all i can say.

 

[TaimiKhan]

4) Thrust vectoring
Thrust vectoring is a new technology being introduced to further enhance a fighter's turning ability. By redirecting the jet exhaust, it is possible to directly translate the engine's power into directional changes, more efficiently than via the plane's control surfaces. Both AC's have this ability

5) Speed

Supercruise is the ability of aircraft to cruise efficiently at supersonic speeds without the afterburner. Both AC's have this ability

Both these capabilities are not there is JF-17 nor current Grippen.

No TVC, No Super Cruise capability.

The Grippen NG is said to have Super Cruise capability at 1.1 with A2A weapon load, that also due to the newer more trust giving engine.

May be if JF-17 gets a 95-100KN engine, then it may be able to do super cruise, but for now, it can't nor heard of.