Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen

[Yoron]

Hm, seems like this is a subject of contention.
But you still have chosen one design right?

And it's a new design, so there will be stuff happening , as it always does. But that is the same for all aircrafts I think. And as you say, it's not unattractive. Build on it and see. Gripen, probably, will hold its own a thirty years more, maybe & with upgrades But after gen 5. I expect the planes to steer themselves. We have reached the limits for what a human can stand in G forces etc, as it seems now. And such a plane will be cheaper.

If you want to see how Gripen is built you can look here "http_www_mediafire_com/?od4mwmfjvjy"

The ' _ 'is ' . ' and you have to fix the http.
How to build a fighter in 100 meters.

 

[SQ8]

There were no restrictions as such on getting the Gripen..
The Americans had okayed the program on paper..
What the PAF was worried about was investing a lot into the Gripen.. still primarily an Air defense jet in the package it was being offered as.
Also, the issue of having a US engine, US avionics and other American components made the PAF reluctant to invest so much into a system it was hoping to be its leading fighter...the PAF already had enough Air defense fighters.. it wanted a deep strike bomber...and still eyed the Mirage 2k for that(talks were underway with the Qatari's and the UAEAF back then as well..the F-16 would then serve as the OCA Strike system..with the M2K taking up the role of a deep strike system).. but then came the earthquake..and the coffers were emptied again.
The JF-17 was coming come hell or high water..
And for the capabilities it offered.. the Gripen was exceeding the ASR requirements.. But so was the Jf-17... it was a simple choice of money and assurance in wartime..and.. dictator time.

 

[Silk]

Hi IND_PAK,

A crash not neccessarily---but the urgency that is being shown of integrating these aircraft and creating one sqdrn and going for the second one--it is at a little too fast a pace---it is like on the job training----we will hire you first and then train you for the job---.

We will manufacture it as fast as we can and put up the numbers---to look good.

The jf 17---sd 10 b---radar capable of integrating the missile---they are in development stage---through the test phase at this time---will be possibly ready in 3---4 years time frame---.

Pakistan needed this capability before 2005---we won't have it till 2015 on this aircraft---.

When you have to fight the su 30 mki---you first have to acknowledge its strength to come up with an aircraft of your own to counter it. We are not there---in time---but then su 30 would be there in much larger numbers---.

The gap would be too wide to overcome with technique and skill.

How come reliable internet sources tell that SD10B is ready and newer versions are probably ready next year?

If you build or designed JF17 it is perfectly normal that you learn on the job. Are you going to hire someone to write manuals for you? Are you going to ask someone to verify your goals and parameters? JF7 was PAF job and they are busy with it.

I am curious about your background. Not technical cause it is far above that level looking at your answers. Neither do I see inside knowledge. There must be something that drives you to post that much but with certainly anti PAF sentiment all over it.

 

[SQ8]

How come reliable internet sources tell that SD10B is ready and newer versions are probably ready next year?

If you build or designed JF17 it is perfectly normal that you learn on the job. Are you going to hire someone to write manuals for you? Are you going to ask someone to verify your goals and parameters? JF7 was PAF job and they are busy with it.

I am curious about your background. Not technical cause it is far above that level looking at your answers. Neither do I see inside knowledge. There must be something that drives you to post that much but with certainly anti PAF sentiment all over it.

Many including me will vouch for MK..
And I believe he does have a sound technical background..
He is a constructive skeptic.. and there is always the need for the person who tells a team that is lost in celebrating what they see as success: "Did you double check the figures..?!"

 

[Manticore]

jf17 blk 1 is not 100 % comparable to gripen , particularly in avionics but blk2 in the next 3 years ,may even exceed gripen a , in some fields.

we needed a credible fighter , in large numbers , with assurance of spare parts and chances of continued upgradation

we had to build an aircraft ourselves , some day-- why not now , when our ballistic missiles Still have the deterrance value -- 3 years is not a long time for any new platform to gain maturity , keeping in view that we already have an active squadron right now


instead of pouring money into gripen , we should go for a far better fighter - fc20

just imagine the operational headache if we also add grippens to our fleet , alongwith comparable f16s and jf17s

some comparable specs--

 

[MastanKhan]

Before Any ones goes any further please read this is not a VS thread but on the contrary, it is to compare the 2 platforms to analise why do people think that the one is better then the other, and we should have gone for this rather then that.


JF 17

Saab Gripen

Comparison side by side.

Now many here advocate that Gripen is a better platform and Pakistan should have opted for it, rather then trying to produce their own in thunder. Now for arguments sake, let say that Gripen was not sanctions prone, and we could buy them just like we are producing the thunder. What would you still go with, being a layman while looking at the specs they look kinda similar to me, apart from the fact that Gripen has the experience of Saab behind it. What do you guys think. And again this is not a Vs thread. Please dont make it into one. Thanks.

Sir,

Please stop making things up----it is very immature----there is no comparison between these two aircraft as of today---.

The grippen is in full fledged deployment for the last many a years performing at 110 % of its capabilities---whereas the JF 17 has to see its first meet n a neutral ground---. Whereas the grippen is available with all the weapons systems that it needs---the jf 17 won't be ready for another 3---to 5 years.

My question is about the war with india starting tonite midnight----what does pak air force has to show for it.

Technically the jf 17 is just at its adolescent stage whereas the grippen as a system is in its prime---. You cannot bet the fortunes of a nation on something that is not even performing at 50% of its capabilites yet.

 

[Bossman]

Sir,

Please stop making things up----it is very immature----there is no comparison between these two aircraft as of today---.

The grippen is in full fledged deployment for the last many a years performing at 110 % of its capabilities---whereas the JF 17 has to see its first meet n a neutral ground---. Whereas the grippen is available with all the weapons systems that it needs---the jf 17 won't be ready for another 3---to 5 years.

My question is about the war with india starting tonite midnight----what does pak air force has to show for it.

Technically the jf 17 is just at its adolescent stage whereas the grippen as a system is in its prime---. You cannot bet the fortunes of a nation on something that is not even performing at 50% of its capabilites yet.

Mastaan,

It seems after advocating the Mirage 2000 for PAF for many years now you have moved to advocating the Grippen and the reasons for doing so are even worse than advocating the M2K. Nobody is denying that JF17 is better than the Grippen but is the Grippen the right solution for Pakistan? I don't think so. How many Grippens do you think PAF could have bought even if the liberal Swedish government was willing to sell them to us, maybe 3/5 squadrons. We plan to buy 250 JF17s. Grippen comes with a very high risk of sanctions not only from the Swedes but also from American as Grippen has a lot of American content. Chances of any TOT is close to zero. Buying Grippens instead of JF17 would have been a very stupid decision. As far a your fear of war starting tonite, there are a lot of other weapons in Pakistan's arsenal which is keeping the enemy at bay and that is why they could not attack us even when they wanted to. Such things are taken into account when making long-term defence procurement decisions. In other words we have enough time and flexibility to let JF 17 mature to its full potential.

 

[cw2005]

Under current circumstances, there would not be good chance for war. If Pakistan generals share my view, then it is logical to select an affordable and self upgradeable platform rather then spend heavily in buying limited number of "Matured" platform. I think time is on Pakistan's side. Before India could get its new toys and thus provide great temptation to attack Pakistan, Pakistan is OK. Talking about India's new toys, only heaven knows how long would it take? Looking at the pace how China advances in Military techs, I won't be surprise to see JF-17 in near future equipped with ASEA, RCS reduction and higher power engine. In fact, in the Chinese forum, a reliable guy who leaked correctly about China's J-20 has been talking about FC-1B with stealth feature. Although I do not take it serious, but the possibility is there.

 

[Luftwaffe]

bossman....Mastaan,It seems after advocating the Mirage 2000 for PAF for many years now you have moved to advocating the Grippen and the reasons for doing so are even worse than advocating the M2K. Nobody is denying that JF17 is better than the Grippen but is the Grippen the right solution for Pakistan? I don't think so. How many Grippens do you think PAF could have bought even if the liberal Swedish government was willing to sell them to us, maybe 3/5 squadrons. We plan to buy 250 JF17s. Grippen comes with a very high risk of sanctions not only from the Swedes but also from American as Grippen has a lot of American content. Chances of any TOT is close to zero. Buying Grippens instead of JF17 would have been a very stupid decision. As far a your fear of war starting tonite, there are a lot of other weapons in Pakistan's arsenal which is keeping the enemy at bay and that is why they could not attack us even when they wanted to. Such things are taken into account when making long-term defence procurement decisions. In other words we have enough time and flexibility to let JF 17 mature to its full potential.

Why would MK not advocate for a premium mature platform may it be the legendary Mirage-2000 or Gripen. Do y ou even know the machinery has been important non other nation then Sweden for t he manufacturing of JF-17 parts. That alone cracks you're counter argument. When the enemy comes they'll come with full force what part do you not understand the Air warfare legends says it all, if such is your psyche then according to you we won't be needing thunders if we've another things in our pockets to protect us from india's wrath any day of the war. Don't be goofy move on..
I don't think so Gripen would have been a bad choice against MKIs, Mig29 SMT, M-2000-5 standards. You still don't get it Gripen is a tested fielded platform in service for years and fully operational.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Besides the cost to performance ratio I think another reason would be immunization to sanction. The Gripen uses an American engine, which could be a hassle if future arms embargo were to be placed on Pakistan.

 

[Bossman]

Why would MK not advocate for a premium mature platform may it be the legendary Mirage-2000 or Gripen. Do y ou even know the machinery has been important non other nation then Sweden for t he manufacturing of JF-17 parts. That alone cracks you're counter argument. When the enemy comes they'll come with full force what part do you not understand the Air warfare legends says it all, if such is your psyche then according to you we won't be needing thunders if we've another things in our pockets to protect us from india's wrath any day of the war. Don't be goofy move on..
I don't think so Gripen would have been a bad choice against MKIs, Mig29 SMT, M-2000-5 standards. You still don't get it Gripen is a tested fielded platform in service for years and fully operational.

Your childish rant does not make any sense. Please elaborate. I can advocate even better aircrafts than M2K and the Grippen for the PAF like the F 35 or Typhoon but are they feasible? Do they provide the right bang for the buck? do they come without strings attached? Wouldn't the french and swedes try to squeeze every penny from you for spares and upgrade the way french are doing it with IAF to upgrade their M2K? Please think a little before you react and while you are at it fix your spellings. I think you wanted to say imported and not important. I am very happy that we are importing machine tools from Sweden rather than fully built up planes.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Read the post again.

 

[khurasaan1]

Your childish rant does not make any sense. Please elaborate. I can advocate even better aircrafts than M2K and the Grippen for the PAF like the F 35 or Typhoon but are they feasible? Do they provide the right bang for the buck? do they come without strings attached? Wouldn't the french and swedes try to squeeze every penny from you for spares and upgrade the way french are doing it with IAF to upgrade their M2K? Please think a little before you react and while you are at it fix your spellings. I think you wanted to say imported and not important. I am very happy that we are importing machine tools from Sweden rather than fully built up planes.

I guess the PAF is dumb for Mastan Khan and Luftwaffe that they designed JF17 as their main fighter for their requirements and spent so much money on it...

 

[notorious_eagle]

My question is about the war with india starting tonite midnight----what does pak air force has to show for it.

Enough to deny them Air Superiority over our skies. PAF in its current form is capable enough to deliver the punch to IAF and ensure that they cannot carry out CAS for the IA Armour, which in my opinion is a bigger threat to Pakistan.

Last two times when war should have broke out, India barked but never bit. Why, because Pakistan's Armed Forces as a whole are capable enough to deny them a victory that is politically acceptable to their nation. Indians lack the strength that is needed to deliver a knock out punch.

All this B.S of Cold Start has died down. Reason for that being, Pakistan possessing the proper deterrent to thwart any aggression from the Indian side and India lacking the capability to pulling off something like that. Pakistan is buying exactly the right weapons it needs to counter India. If you look at the recent acquisitions by Pakistan, they have taken away pretty much all advantages the Indians held against us in a cost effective manner. Kudos to Pakistan Armed Forces for keeping the enemy at bay with such a small budget.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Did Pakistan kept them at bay or they didn't wanted to get engaged?
What deterrent? Do we have high altitude SAMs? Do you have intl on our jamming capabilities? We're lagging in many fields and If you have forgotten 22 years PAF had been wasting time and money though finally someone came to senses and started projects. The purpose to let you know is Pakistan has NOW started to fix things and its a long way down for us our enemy is still superior and "never underestimate your opponent", indians don't but you Pakistanis do.