Are Waziristan Soldiers Released Yet?

[Bull]

Another 12 are kidnapped, this time under gun point. Cant just imagine how soliders can be kidnapped like this, ill equipped police force yes they can kidnapped with just lathis, but PA soldiers!!!


BBC NEWS | South Asia | More Pakistani soldiers abducted

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Militants abduct 18 police officers in NWFP ISLAMABAD, Sept 12(AP): Militants attacked a security checkpoint near Bannu on Wednesday, abducting 18 police officers and injuring two others, officials said. The insurgents fired rockets at the post before overrunning the position, said an intelligence official who spoke on condition of anonymity. Army spokesman Major General Waheed Arshad said the militants abducted 18 police officers and left behind two others who were injured. He gave no more details. ( Updated @ 10:28 PST Posted @ 13:02 PST)

Bull,
Seems like it was policemen. Most police, I believe, are hired from area, so this may isolate the militants from the local population further.

Regarding why his keeps happening - The Govt. has set up these checkpoints in several places and manned them with a few dozen soldiers at the most. I am not sure how effectively such temporary "checkpoints" can be defended when under attack from 60 or 70 heavily armed militants, even if they were Army. Air support relatively soon after coming under attack might help, but not sure if "police" get that advantage.

 

[blain2]

Bull,
Seems like it was policemen.

Agnostic,

Not seems like , it is paramilitary FC. The folks from the local areas, as you said, are hired from the tribes. They are armed but when in trouble require the support of the Army.

The bottom line is that currently, this is no longer an issue of Taliban. We are talking about an entire Mehsud tribe going up against the FC and authorities. You could have an FC checkpoint in their area (which is one of their demands - remove the CPs)..and it could very easily be surrounded by a few hundred tribesmen who have been inspired by the tribal leaders (Baitullah Mehsud is essentially one of the more influential ones).

The FC are typically armed with small arms and at most with RPG-7s. The tribals can easily match this firepower plus they have numbers on their side.

 

[Bull]

Agnostic,

Not seems like , it is paramilitary FC. The folks from the local areas, as you said, are hired from the tribes. They are armed but when in trouble require the support of the Army.

The bottom line is that currently, this is no longer an issue of Taliban. We are talking about an entire Mehsud tribe going up against the FC and authorities. You could have an FC checkpoint in their area (which is one of their demands - remove the CPs)..and it could very easily be surrounded by a few hundred tribesmen who have been inspired by the tribal leaders (Baitullah Mehsud is essentially one of the more influential ones).

The FC are typically armed with small arms and at most with RPG-7s. The tribals can easily match this firepower plus they have numbers on their side.

So how can you stop these random attacks?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agnostic,

Not seems like , it is paramilitary FC. The folks from the local areas, as you said, are hired from the tribes. They are armed but when in trouble require the support of the Army.

The bottom line is that currently, this is no longer an issue of Taliban. We are talking about an entire Mehsud tribe going up against the FC and authorities. You could have an FC checkpoint in their area (which is one of their demands - remove the CPs)..and it could very easily be surrounded by a few hundred tribesmen who have been inspired by the tribal leaders (Abdullah Mehsud is essentially one of the more influential ones).

The FC are typically armed with small arms and at most with RPG-7s. The tribals can easily match this firepower plus they have numbers on their side.

Thx for clarification. I think I have read three different accounts of who it was that was kidnapped on three different news sites - Army, FC or police. The FC seems the most probable, FATA does not have police does it? Its Lashkars, political agents or the Para's. For that matter I have read about five different names for the "high level taliban commander killed yesterday".

Now keeping in mind what you said, and what little I can glean from the press reports, these checkpoints are of no major use and by virtue of being so vulnerable, a huge liability as well. So what was the rationale behind setting them up? How much search and seizure do they really undertake? Are they being persisted with solely to avoid the impression of caving into Baitullah's demands?

 

[blain2]

So how can you stop these random attacks?

You have to talk to them. There is no military solution as I said earlier. Pakistan Army and AF can go in there and bomb them but it will only lead to increased alienation and more violence. This is something that has been learned many times over by those who have dealt with the tribals of NW Pakistan and Afghanistan.

This is also the reason that the government is not going in with all guns blazing. Its a smart move, frustrating for all but even then a better call than going in and taking overwhelming military action.

 

[blain2]

Now keeping in mind what you said, and what little I can glean from the press reports, these checkpoints are of no major use and by virtue of being so vulnerable, a huge liability as well. So what was the rationale behind setting them up? How much search and seizure do they really undertake? Are they being persisted with solely to avoid the impression of caving into Baitullah's demands?

If you don't setup the checkpoints then militants control the area. The political agents and the GoP still want to stay in control of the areas. You have to have boots on the ground to do that.

People in FATA, as inclined towards Islam as they maybe, are still not comfortable with the Taliban's version of Islam...they'd rather have local levies and FC patrol the streets than the Taliban or lashkars from a different tribe. Not everyone is from the Mehsud tribe so there are very many other considerations for the FC to stay put.

The only way out for the government is to talk with these guys and on the side keep on sending a message that if things get worse then even the tribes (Mehsud etc.) have a bit to lose.

I say "talks" because to be very honest with you, currently USAF and NATO have their most expensive ISR assets tracking militant's movement around Afghanistan, they have RRF (Rapid Reaction Special Forces and air assault capabilities out of the wazoo)..and yet they have not been able to deal a decisive blow to these guys because there is support for them among certain sections of the population (these sections are not in the thousands, rather in hundreds of thousands).

Pakistan too would continue to expend resources militarily and things will not improve. The whole idea behind militarily defeating an insurgency which has local support is a fallacy. 4 years down the road, US and ISAF can't really say that there has been a massive change in Kandahar and other areas inhabited by the Pashtuns..to expect Pakistani FC and Army to mete out an *** kicking to the same pashtuns on this side of the border is to expect a bit too much.

Its an ill-considered and unrealistic expectation in my mind, regardless of how nutty and lawless things get there...the overall implications of going in with guns blazing will be far worse for Pakistan than the current situation which can be made better with negotiation s on both sides of the border.

 

[IceCold]

Why cant this abdullah mehsud be killed? Whats the problem.

 

[dabong1]

You have to talk to them. There is no military solution as I said earlier. Pakistan Army and AF can go in there and bomb them but it will only lead to increased alienation and more violence. This is something that has been learned many times over by those who have dealt with the tribals of NW Pakistan and Afghanistan.

This is also the reason that the government is not going in with all guns blazing. Its a smart move, frustrating for all but even then a better call than going in and taking overwhelming military action.

Well said

 

[blain2]

Why cant this abdullah mehsud be killed? Whats the problem.

We killed Abdullah Mehsud (before that Nek Muhammad) and now have to deal with Baitullah Mehsud...you kill him then you have to deal with Naimatullah Mehsud...it goes on and on...

In this area, you cannot expect to teach people "lessons" by killing them....the Pashtunwali/Pakthunwali code lives on and encourages people to take revenge for those killed.

Talk and talk...that is it...Americans may put pressure on GoP, but deft diplomacy (both with tribals and then with ISAF/US) is needed here. Not an easy task by any means, but it is the key to end this mess.

 

[karpov]

The soldiers kidnapped might have defected. I can not provide any link as yet but if its true then its shocking!

 

[karpov]

Why cant this abdullah mehsud be killed? Whats the problem.

Because as yet our army is not capable enough to kill him(i wish they do), a tough nut to crack. Yea if forces got a chance to kill him in easy way, like they killed Bugtti, who was cornered in cave and refused to surrender, then yea may be they will. There are many moles in our security forces who reveal information to terrorists.

 

[karpov]

We killed Abdullah Mehsud (before that Nek Muhammad) and now have to deal with Baitullah Mehsud...you kill him then you have to deal with Naimatullah Mehsud...it goes on and on...

Above mentioned dudes were not killed by "We". It was an american missile that killed Nek Muhammad. While Baitullah exploded a grenade and did favor to us.

 

[IceCold]

I am not the greastest fan of military action in the tribal areas but there are certain individuals mentioned above who dont know what diplomacy is, the only answer to them is bullet in the head. Two of them mentioned above were killed and i think one is in afghainstan to whom afghanistan is supporting and i heard the government criticizing the afghan government for letting him in afghanistan and if army is somehow unable to do the job then let airforce handle it, since PAF can bomb his out *** out of afghainstan straight to hell. Its time PAF must be brought into play and they should strike terrorists palces in afghanistan the ones used against pakistan.

 

[karpov]

I am not the greastest fan of military action in the tribal areas but there are certain individuals mentioned above who dont know what diplomacy is, the only answer to them is bullet in the head. Two of them mentioned above were killed and i think one is in afghainstan to whom afghanistan is supporting and i heard the government criticizing the afghan government for letting him in afghanistan and if army is somehow unable to do the job then let airforce handle it, since PAF can bomb his out *** out of afghainstan straight to hell. Its time PAF must be brought into play and they should strike terrorists palces in afghanistan the ones used against pakistan.

PAF???????i thought army was our strong point eventhough PAF is airborne. When USAF with all its might hasnt been able to take out those she wants to (unless given exact and accurate info), how do you expect PAF to deliver. Is our PAF capable enough to take targets outside our boundary?