Are The Afghan Taliban Different From The Pakistani Taliban?

[Ahmad]

Well, the way I understand it, Pakistan supported the Taliban not because of their Wahhabi ideology but for two reasons:
- they were fighting the Indian backed Northern Alliance, so it was effectively a proxy war
- they are a Pashtun nationalist movement and Pakistan has a significant Pashtun population

Where it all went wrong is when they got cozy with AQ and Pakistan did not appreciate the confluence of jihadist mentality and Wahhabi ideology. We nurtured the former while quietly ignoring the latter. It is even possible that Zia and his people, with their own conservative bent, tacitly supported the Wahhabi ideology, I don't know.

Like I said, supporting proxy fighters is something most governments do anyway. It has happened in the past, and will continue to happen in the future. Even religious fervor to fight wars is not unique to the Taliban. Israeli soldiers fight in the name of Judaism. Many Western soldiers are motivated by the belief that they are part of a new Crusade. The mistake in Pakistan's case was to allow the medieval Wahhabi ideology to take root in our neighborhood, let alone our house.

I am glad you mentioned this. What we see in Afghanistan is a proxy war, it was a proxy war and it has always been a proxy war for the last 30 years, it is not Afghans' war, but they are the only people who are paying the heavy price of this proxy war. So dont say that you care for the people of Afghanistan, it is the proxy war you care under the pretext of muslim brothers which is running out of steam now. The US is also engaging in a proxy war in Afghanistan and so are the indians and Pakistanis, considering these facts, all these countries are the same for the Afghans. By the way, dominance of Pashtoon nationalist parties is never good for Pakistan.

 

[Ahmad]

Gambit:

You Americans (myself being one...or in transition at the very least) need to understand that it is not in the Pakistan Army's core interests to see the US succeed in Afghanistan.

they see Afghanistan as their own playground, and any stable government there will become a friendly nation towards India, which they absolutely detest and will do anything to avoid.

If Pakistan deals with honesty in Afghanistan, there is no way Afghans would turn their face to India and their back to Pakistan.

 

[waraich66]

I am glad you mentioned this. What we see in Afghanistan is a proxy war, it was a proxy war and it has always been a proxy war for the last 30 years, it is not Afghans' war, but they are the only people who are paying the heavy price of this proxy war. So dont say that you care for the people of Afghanistan, it is the proxy war you care under the pretext of muslim brothers which is running out of steam now. The US is also engaging in a proxy war in Afghanistan and so are the indians and Pakistanis, considering these facts, all these countries are the same for the Afghans. By the way, dominance of Pashtoon nationalist parties is never good for Pakistan.

Afghans proved themself great nation by defeating two Super Powers without any Miltery by Gurrilla war.

To liberate country from invader is proxy war

 

[S-2]

"If Pakistan deals with honesty in Afghanistan, there is no way Afghans would turn their face to India and their back to Pakistan."

Honesty is a nice start but it'll take far more than honestly expressed intentions to repair the enmity created by proxy war on the afghan people.

Openly admitting such is only the first step. Reversing such with as much honesty as admitting it would be far the preferable in gaining the good will of Afghans.

 

[Ahmad]

Afghans proved themself great nation by defeating two Super Powers without any Miltery by Gurrilla war.

To liberate country from invader is proxy war

Look at my post and look your response, your reply doent match what i said, i speak about sky and you speak about earth.

I said that nobody cared for the people of afghanistan and afghans were used, their soil were used, they have been the only victim of this proxy war. It is a proxy war, it was a proxy war, it has always been a proxy war, it has nothing to do with the Afghans, freedome etc. Instead of having empty praises for them, try to have mercy on them and dont fuel the devastating war in their country even further, they deserve peace as much as the others. I lost my 3 brothers in battle against the russians in Afghanistan(one of them got arrested by the russians and was hanged, we never had his body back), and I feel that blood of those Shohada(my brothers and millions of others) was spilt for nothing because we never saw the freedom. There were soviets' puppets, then the mujaideen came who were also puppets of Pakistan, some of the Mujahideen groups became friend of India because they lost their hope from Pakistan, then the Taliban came who were/are the puppets of Pakistan and now the americans, if by witdrawing the american forces from afgahnistan that country becomes free and prosperous then why should I/We have any objection to it, sadly there wont be any freedom or peace if the americans leave afghanistan, we will still have puppet gov and more bloodshed. in such a situation why should the afghans prefer continuation of war? if puppets come and go then what is the point if they see their country destroyed even further and their kids killed? there will be fightings the same way as it was during the Taliban rule and Mujahideen rule. People of Afghanistan are not any fond of the americans, they are foreigners the same way Pakistanis, indians and others are, they eventuatlly want the americans to leave their country, but they dont want it now. they want the americans to finish the job and then they can go, if they leave afghanistan like this , that will be a death sentence for them. Although afghans complain about pakistan, but their complain is about the gov, not pakistani public. Pakistani public are really great people and a friend of people of afghanistan. they have always helped people of afghanistan whenever they could, the same thing goes to Iran.

 

[gambit]

There were soviets' puppets, then the mujaideen came who were also puppets of Pakistan, some of the Mujahideen groups became friend of India because they lost their hope from Pakistan, then the Taliban came who were/are the puppets of Pakistan and now the americans, if by witdrawing the american forces from afgahnistan that country becomes free and prosperous then why should I/We have any objection to it, sadly there wont be any freedom or peace if the americans leave afghanistan, we will still have puppet gov and more bloodshed.

The weaker the nation-state and its government, the more enticing it will be for more powerful and ambitious neighbors. So in order to remain independent, or to have some degrees of independence, said nation-state must have some kind of alliance with one of the more powerful neighbors. The weaker you are and the more dependent upon this alliance for protection, the less autonomy you have even though you are nominally independent. No society can advance if it is in constant low level conflicts, either to remain independent or as a pawn in proxy wars between rival powers. This is so far Afghanistan's lot.

The truth is that the Taliban and their backward mentality is no good for any society. But remove them and something must take their place. It is a fantasy that the US should wish for Afghanistan to be more like US and we know it. So the question for the Afghans should be -- Where are our fellow muslims to help us become less dependent upon our neighbors, have friendly relations with them, and become more prosperous in similar ways they have?

Any takers?

But of course...That Karzai-Unocal oil pipeline loony conspiracy again...

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

To be or Not to Be that is the Question...

Pakistan Faces Some Tough Choices

1. Leave the afghan taliban on thier own to fight their azz out at the same time Risk giving India Free Room to maneovour and harbour anti state actors within Pakistan across the Durand Line (they sure did that in the past with Mukti Bahani) .. India would not just develop Reagional supriority over Pakistan but would happily promote its area of interest deep with in the Central Asian Republics also....now people in Pakistan would allow this to happen or is their any posibility that Pakistani Establishement can be convinced to accept that ...

2 . Keep Playing with the good old afghan talibans to maintain a level of superiority over the Indians in Afghanistan thus guaranteeing the lookafter of all the future interests which this unfortunate land holds for the well being and might of Pakistan thus also Preventing India from opening up another Front inorder to have some kind of tactical or Diplomatic Room of advantage over the OutStanding Dispute of Kashmir .

If the US can seriously negotiate the solutions of the Long standing Disputes btw India and Pakistan acceptable to both then such a scenario of eliminating talibans and nationbuilding of Afghanistan under a so called UN mandate is possible .
Pakistan Army has been Breed to countour the Indians in almost any sphere using almost any resource there are no ifs and buts in this cruel reality ....

The whole idea of my argument is Pakistan India rivalary centered ....
I dont giv a s hi t to what the US cares . Pakistan must do whatever it takes utilizing anything within its power to make sure that our westren borders dont deteriate to a level where our Hostile and Adventurous neighbor could make use of any advantage in any sphere ....

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

If the US persues a policy which undermines Pakistans interests in Afghanistan and gives India an edge to creat a situation from across the durand line from which it could have any advantage over the standing disputes than Pakistan is bound retaliate and " the law of unintended Consequences Holds firmly "

 

[aakalim]

I think what pakistanis need to realise is that the idea of propping up the taliban in afghanistan to prevent indian dominance in the region has FAILED. The very taliban whome we supported are now being used by the indians against Pakistan.

Now i know many would say that it is only the TTP that is fighting against pakistan and the Afghan taliban do not approve these actions of TTP. But the fact is that this is only a tactical difference among them, the ideology of both pakistani and afghan taliban is the same. The afghan taliban think that fighting in pakistan is counterproductive to thier cause because it would deprive them of the moral support that they have among pakistani people. Now once they start beleiving that they no longer need the support of the pakistani people or that the people of pakistan have become too modern and westernised and hence "Kafir" then they would not hesitate a bit to launch attacks against the pakistani state and the poeple of pakistan.

So whats important is the ideology. The ideology that we must achieve our goals and impose our understanding of the religion on other people by force, no matter how many innocent people are killed in the process, is the same in both forms of taliban.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

I think what pakistanis need to realise is that the idea of propping up the taliban in afghanistan to prevent indian dominance in the region has FAILED. The very taliban whome we supported are now being used by the indians against Pakistan.

Now i know many would say that it is only the TTP that is fighting against pakistan and the Afghan taliban do not approve these actions of TTP. But the fact is that this is only a tactical difference among them, the ideology of both pakistani and afghan taliban is the same. The afghan taliban think that fighting in pakistan is counterproductive to thier cause because it would deprive them of the moral support that they have among pakistani people. Now once they start beleiving that they no longer need the support of the pakistani people or that the people of pakistan have become too modern and westernised and hence "Kafir" then they would not hesitate a bit to launch attacks against the pakistani state and the poeple of pakistan.

So whats important is the ideology. The ideology that we must achieve our goals and impose our understanding of the religion on other people by force, no matter how many innocent people are killed in the process, is the same in both forms of taliban.

I disagree that the afghan talibans have a simillar ideology to those fighting in our lands .

The Afghan Talibans are fighting against the Forign Occupants of their land . They are fighting for their independance from forign forces . Tell me any major incident that happened before the arrival of US in afghanistan which justifies your cause that they might declare Pakistanis as Followers of westren culture and on the basis of this they launch jehad against Pakistan .
Before US entered in Afghanistan there were Talibans and there were many secular groups in our society too but why didnt they attacked Pakistan that moment when they didnt even faced a threat from the US either...
At some times there were differences with the Taliban regime in Kabul but that didnt in any way support a cause that they would launch jihad against Pakistan .

 

[aakalim]

I disagree that the afghan talibans have a simillar ideology to those fighting in our lands .

The Afghan Talibans are fighting against the Forign Occupants of their land . They are fighting for their independance from forign forces . Tell me any major incident that happened before the arrival of US in afghanistan which justifies your cause that they might declare Pakistanis as Followers of westren culture and on the basis of this they launch jehad against Pakistan .
Before US entered in Afghanistan there were Talibans and there were many secular groups in our society too but why didnt they attacked Pakistan that moment when they didnt even faced a threat from the US either...
At some times there were differences with the Taliban regime in Kabul but that didnt in any way support a cause that they would launch jihad against Pakistan .

Yes they wont and have not launched a jihad against Pakistan, because at this piont they do not have any need to do so, they know thatt by doing so they would lose the support of people like you and others in Pakistan.

They may be fighting a legitimate war but they are using the same barbaric tactics as being used by the pakistani taliban. If a suicide bombing is wrong in pakistan then it is wrong in Afghanistan also as innocent people are killed in both cases.

If they are against fighting the pakistan army then why dont they openly oppose the TTPs actions. We havent seen any open condenmation of these actions by either Mullah umer or any other taliban leader. All we have are some isolated comments by some afghan taliban who try to expresses disassociation with TTP. But the fact is that the TTP still draws its ideological strenght from the Afghan Taliban and consider Mulla Umar as their leader. Just recently Mullah Fazlullah escaed to afghanistan and the same afghan taliban are harbouring him.

 

[oceanx]

Please...Stop...You are killing me...Afghanistan never had any 'country' to 'demolish' even when the Soviets were there. All roads lead to Rome in the Roman Empire. But does Afghanistan have enough roads to lead to Kabul? As Biden and others pointed out -- No. Afghanistan's already difficult terrain and lack of the amenities of civilizations that we take for granted encourages and enforces tribalism. Tribes do not create civilizations, only scratches in rocks to fascinate later and more advanced societies. What our bombs destroyed in Afghanistan affected only the immediate beneficiaries of those few amenities of civilizations, not the many tribal fiefdoms accessible only by dirt trails and pack animals. And we can easily rebuild what we destroyed.

Disgraceful rhetoric from a self-styled South Viet-merican"military professional". Some may see you in the company of "My lai" professionals.

If you can "easily rebuild what you destroyed" - then all the more shameful why you haven't.

It's high time putting your money where your mouth is.

Bottom line is...The Afghan muslims have lost equal faith in their muslim brothers, if not more, but at least they see who is trying in Afghanistan. The post WW II European Marshall Plan was a collaborative effort. So why are there so few muslims collaborating with US/NATO in Afghanistan? Why is this legitimate question considered to be 'anti-Muslim'? Fair minded people will see that it is the greater height of arrogance on YOUR part to advocate a policy that upon even cursory examination is inapplicable and that the muslims have no alternate solutions other than to sit back and criticize those who are trying to create a better Afghanistan.

I agree as an outsider that there is some validity to this perception. Sometimes one wonders about some Muslims seemingly fancying the return of the "C" or the "K" word. i.e., could see why someone would be interested in studying both sides of that coin. However, I also recall this thing being branded by NATO as a struggle between "medievalism"/tribalism vs "modernity"/prosperity ...

Afghanistan is currently not a "pan-Islamic" operation, but rather a NATO/secular/political multifaceted endeavor - with the goal being to win the "hearts and minds" of Central Asian Muslims and building a prosperous secular state hopefully non-hostile to the West.

For "better or worse", will the day come when it becomes a "pan-Islamic" project? At the rate things are going ...

From a purely tactical POV, how does blaming the co-religionists of Afghans serve any purposes at all to winning "hearts and minds" when it is NATO who is "entrusted" by "providence" to take charge of their Afghan subjects' earthly destiny at this point in time?

If 150,000 soliders are not enough to do the job, then how about 500,000?

Bottom line: stop making excuses for yourselves.

 

[oceanx]

Look at my post and look your response, your reply doent match what i said, i speak about sky and you speak about earth.

I said that nobody cared for the people of afghanistan and afghans were used, their soil were used, they have been the only victim of this proxy war. It is a proxy war, it was a proxy war, it has always been a proxy war, it has nothing to do with the Afghans, freedome etc. Instead of having empty praises for them, try to have mercy on them and dont fuel the devastating war in their country even further, they deserve peace as much as the others. I lost my 3 brothers in battle against the russians in Afghanistan(one of them got arrested by the russians and was hanged, we never had his body back), and I feel that blood of those Shohada(my brothers and millions of others) was spilt for nothing because we never saw the freedom. There were soviets' puppets, then the mujaideen came who were also puppets of Pakistan, some of the Mujahideen groups became friend of India because they lost their hope from Pakistan, then the Taliban came who were/are the puppets of Pakistan and now the americans, if by witdrawing the american forces from afgahnistan that country becomes free and prosperous then why should I/We have any objection to it, sadly there wont be any freedom or peace if the americans leave afghanistan, we will still have puppet gov and more bloodshed. in such a situation why should the afghans prefer continuation of war? if puppets come and go then what is the point if they see their country destroyed even further and their kids killed? there will be fightings the same way as it was during the Taliban rule and Mujahideen rule. People of Afghanistan are not any fond of the americans, they are foreigners the same way Pakistanis, indians and others are, they eventuatlly want the americans to leave their country, but they dont want it now. they want the americans to finish the job and then they can go, if they leave afghanistan like this , that will be a death sentence for them. Although afghans complain about pakistan, but their complain is about the gov, not pakistani public. Pakistani public are really great people and a friend of people of afghanistan. they have always helped people of afghanistan whenever they could, the same thing goes to Iran.

Yours reflects a typical, "educated"-expat view. I think deep down you'd agree that Afghans wouldn't have fought the way they did - if they thought they were mere "proxies" of someone else - all the time and every time. So clearly more than just "proxy struggles" were at stake, at least at one time.

But I do empathize with your feelings and thanks for your refreshing perspective.

Peace, and

 

[waraich66]

Look at my post and look your response, your reply doent match what i said, i speak about sky and you speak about earth.

I said that nobody cared for the people of afghanistan and afghans were used, their soil were used, they have been the only victim of this proxy war. It is a proxy war, it was a proxy war, it has always been a proxy war, it has nothing to do with the Afghans, freedome etc. Instead of having empty praises for them, try to have mercy on them and dont fuel the devastating war in their country even further, they deserve peace as much as the others. I lost my 3 brothers in battle against the russians in Afghanistan(one of them got arrested by the russians and was hanged, we never had his body back), and I feel that blood of those Shohada(my brothers and millions of others) was spilt for nothing because we never saw the freedom. There were soviets' puppets, then the mujaideen came who were also puppets of Pakistan, some of the Mujahideen groups became friend of India because they lost their hope from Pakistan, then the Taliban came who were/are the puppets of Pakistan and now the americans, if by witdrawing the american forces from afgahnistan that country becomes free and prosperous then why should I/We have any objection to it, sadly there wont be any freedom or peace if the americans leave afghanistan, we will still have puppet gov and more bloodshed. in such a situation why should the afghans prefer continuation of war? if puppets come and go then what is the point if they see their country destroyed even further and their kids killed? there will be fightings the same way as it was during the Taliban rule and Mujahideen rule. People of Afghanistan are not any fond of the americans, they are foreigners the same way Pakistanis, indians and others are, they eventuatlly want the americans to leave their country, but they dont want it now. they want the americans to finish the job and then they can go, if they leave afghanistan like this , that will be a death sentence for them. Although afghans complain about pakistan, but their complain is about the gov, not pakistani public. Pakistani public are really great people and a friend of people of afghanistan. they have always helped people of afghanistan whenever they could, the same thing goes to Iran.

No one used Afgans during Afghan Russian jehad and during present US Afghan jehad, always they fought their wars of freedom with their own people and determination.

For freedom every nation had to pay the price , we had paid price for independence of Pakistan also.

Read history of nations , the invader always try to gain their objective through few traitors but in the end no power could withstand against the will of nation.

 

[S-2]

"Before US entered in Afghanistan there were Talibans and there were many secular groups in our society too but why didnt they attacked Pakistan that moment when they didnt even faced a threat from the US either..."

Some might suggest that when Pakistan refused to stand up against America and, instead, choose to openly support the afghan taliban whom the GoP had recognized as the legitimate government of Afghanistan that the process of alienation was under way.

Others would contend that when the irhabists like Haqqani, Hekmatyar, Omar, and OBL were welcomed back upon your lands by the GoP in 2001/2002 that this constituted implicit recognition by the GoP of the righteousness of the radical islamist cause. In so doing, this admission by the GoP laid the framework for the future TTP to expect the same for Pakistani society. When instead the Musharraf government made abortive war in the tribal lands it 1.) angered these disaffected elements of your tribal society and, 2.) the defeat of those government forces and the subsequent negotiations confirmed the inherent weakness and vulnerability of the Musharraf government to the same.

Nothing in the normative behavior of either grouping where they've controlled lands and people sufficient to see through the implementation of their agenda has indicated any philosophical breach from one another. All that can be reasonably suggested is that Omar's failure to secure the near-term allegiance of B. Mehsud and deferring his objectives for Pakistan for the sake of a common alliance against Afghanistan compelled the radical islamists to fight on two fronts.

Omar, Haqqani, and Hekmatyar have not breached their rapport with the GoP in any meaningful way whatsoever. All fully realize their dependance upon Pakistani good-will to sustain the insurgency's sanctuary against the afghan people. Mehsud wasn't smart enough to defer his narrow anti-Pakistan ambitions for the near-term objective of Afghanistan. That objective aligns the afghan taliban with the GoP but Mehsud ignored this congruity. Had B. Mehsud chosen to accept Omar's anti-Afghan lashkar while corraling Faizullah in SWAT, both elements would have been treated by the GoP in exactly the same manner as we see Maulvi Nazir and Hafez Gul Bahadur's indigenous pro-afghan taliban militias today.

In so doing, you'd have peace in the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan but I doubt you'd wish your family to live there. Certainly not your mothers, aunts, and sisters. After all, that's why it was called the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan. All that was seen in SWAT and Buner WAS the reality of your tribal region and still is today.

Still, I did ask the question and seek all manner of views. I've only chosen here to express mine- such as they are.

Thanks.