Are The Afghan Taliban Different From The Pakistani Taliban?

[Ahmad]

No one used Afgans during Afghan Russian jehad and during present US Afghan jehad, always they fought their wars of freedom with their own people and determination.

For freedom every nation had to pay the price , we had paid price for independence of Pakistan also.

Read history of nations , the invader always try to gain their objective through few traitors but in the end no power could withstand against the will of nation.

Off course people of Afghanistan fought the war for their freedom. But they never calculated and never thought that their most trusted friends would betray them and take advantage of them for their own purposes, thats the whole point.

 

[Ahmad]

Yours reflects a typical, "educated"-expat view. I think deep down you'd agree that Afghans wouldn't have fought the way they did - if they thought they were mere "proxies" of someone else - all the time and every time. So clearly more than just "proxy struggles" were at stake, at least at one time.

But I do empathize with your feelings and thanks for your refreshing perspective.

Peace, and

Thanks alot and you got it right.

 

[gambit]

Disgraceful rhetoric from a self-styled South Viet-merican"military professional". Some may see you in the company of "My lai" professionals.

I expect no less from a bigoted Chinese.

If you can "easily rebuild what you destroyed" - then all the more shameful why you haven't.

I take it the NGO source I presented was too difficult to read? Or do I need to present more information on construction, finance and logistics to make it easier for you?

It's high time putting your money where your mouth is.

Sure...But not just US...

United Nations Radio: Japan to increase aid to Afghanistan

The Government of Japan informed the Secretary General of its intention to contribute a total of 5 billion US dollars in aid to Afghanistan over the next five years.

At least we have money to put in our mouths whereas you have only your foot.

From a purely tactical POV, how does blaming the co-religionists of Afghans serve any purposes at all to winning "hearts and minds" when it is NATO who is "entrusted" by "providence" to take charge of their Afghan subjects' earthly destiny at this point in time?

If 150,000 soliders are not enough to do the job, then how about 500,000?

Bottom line: stop making excuses for yourselves.

Do you even know the actual meanings of the words 'tactical' or 'blame'? Probably not.

blame - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

to blame : at fault : responsible

Nowhere have I 'blame' or place the persistent backwardness of Afghanistan at the foot of the muslims. I am pointing out the incongruency of criticizing without contribution, or very little contribution.

 

[Ahmad]

Nowhere have I 'blame' or place the persistent backwardness of Afghanistan at the foot of the muslims. I am pointing out the incongruency of criticizing without contribution, or very little contribution.

People of Afghanistan are at the bottom of everything, illiteracy is very very high , or whatever you can think of - there is no doubt about it, but for the sake of diplomacy people use the word Developing rather than Backwardness.

 

[gambit]

Nowhere have I 'blame' or place the persistent backwardness of Afghanistan at the foot of the muslims. I am pointing out the incongruency of criticizing without contribution, or very little contribution.

People of Afghanistan are at the bottom of everything, illiteracy is very very high , or whatever you can think of - there is no doubt about it, but for the sake of diplomacy people use the word Developing rather than Backwardness.

And who would be the best people to lift Afghanistan out of the 'developing' stage and into the 21st century? Even we Americans say -- the muslims. The West can provide the money and the corporate leadership if necessary. But at 'the people' level, meaning the day to day interaction with ordinary Afghans, the muslims themselves are the appropriate ones to persuade, sweet talk, bribe, threatened or whatever is needed. Where are they? Oh...Of course...They are sitting on the sidelines criticizing the infidels who are trying, everything from our politics to how we mismanaged the funds.

Inshallah.

 

[waraich66]

What's more important- a true islamic state in every respect as envisioned, for instance, if the taliban were able to gain control of Afghanistan by the power of their gun, or Pakistan regardless of whether it remains governed by Zardari with democratic elections regularly scheduled?

If the afghan taliban conquered Afghanistan, how many here would emigrate to Afghanistan and live under taliban sharia?

These are two serious questions of which I'd like to know the answer from all those whom I've not yet placed on "ignore".

Thanks.

S2,

Can you tell us who is not in your ignore list in senior members except mods and think tankers ?

Afghan talaban winning due to Afghans tribes support not with weapons , infact super power is facing defeat against civilians of Afghanistan.

If Afghan talaban establish shariah government every muslim wanted residency of Afghanistan because of tax free zone same as Saudi Arabia.

I think you will be first American like to work their because tax evasion .I know majority of westerns professionals love to work in oil rich countries becuase of no tax .

 

[waraich66]

Off course people of Afghanistan fought the war for their freedom. But they never calculated and never thought that their most trusted friends would betray them and take advantage of them for their own purposes, thats the whole point.

Again blame game.

If you are pointing finger towards Pakistan then again you are wrong except Musharaf who has distructive agenda against muslim Ummah.

That is reason no muslim country is ready to give asylum.

 

[Ahmad]

And who would be the best people to lift Afghanistan out of the 'developing' stage and into the 21st century? Even we Americans say -- the muslims. The West can provide the money and the corporate leadership if necessary. But at 'the people' level, meaning the day to day interaction with ordinary Afghans, the muslims themselves are the appropriate ones to persuade, sweet talk, bribe, threatened or whatever is needed. Where are they? Oh...Of course...They are sitting on the sidelines criticizing the infidels who are trying, everything from our politics to how we mismanaged the funds.

Inshallah.

I think you didnt get my point, read my post once again and you will realize what I said.

By the way, it is never helpful to be sarcastic by using the word inshallah.

 

[Ahmad]

Again blame game.

If you are pointing finger towards Pakistan then again you are wrong except Musharaf who has distructive agenda against muslim Ummah.

That is reason no muslim country is ready to give asylum.

It is not a blame and it is not a game. this is the truth, deep down you agree with me but cant say it in the public. What has Zia Ul Haq did except making fructures among afghan resistance to use them for his own purposes. please dont bring this muslim umah because it has been mixed up with politics and has lost its meaning except in relation between people with people.

 

[Ahmad]

.

Afghan talaban winning due to Afghans tribes support not with weapons , infact super power is facing defeat against civilians of Afghanistan.

their support is limited to some areas, not all afghanistan. and they have got all the necessary weapons to fight, they are not short of any weapon or amunitions. the only party who is facing defeat is afghan people.


If Afghan talaban establish shariah government every muslim wanted residency of Afghanistan because of tax free zone same as Saudi Arabia.

Oh really? what a logic!! you must be a master of economics!! What will their gov be like without a tax system? How will they deliver the services to people, you have already said that they(taliban) didnt want the help of world bank, NGOs etc, so how can they manage all these? the armed forces, police, healthcare, education, social services, justice and alot more? as a matter of fact they didnt care about all these during their rule, and they will do it again. they closed dwon schools, there was no healthcare and nothing. And regarding saudi arabia, they have got that vast amount of oil, thats why they dont bother taxing people.


I think you will be first American like to work their because tax evasion .I know majority of westerns professionals love to work in oil rich countries becuase of no tax

yes, thats why the westerners are clever and we are not. they have got their proper system and we dont. what if Saudi's oil runs out or the world dont need their oil because of some other alternatives?

 

[Developereo]

Ah, yes...The old tried and true 'anti-Muslim' bigotry charge again. I have to admit to a wee bit amount of envy that you have something to fall back upon when faced with a teaspoonful of your own medicine.

Yawn.
The standard refuge of the bigot. Accuse the other person of bigotry

YOU are the one who sees the world in stark terms as Muslims v/s the rest.
YOU are the ony who falls back on his prepackaged, anti-Muslim tirade when you can't address the issues themselves.

If you can't face the reality that NATO failed abysmally in its objectives to bring stability to Afghanistan, no worries, we can move on. But don't expect anybody to buy your attempt to derail the discussion with anti-Muslim rants.

Anything else I missed?

How about finishing the job you were assigned? You know, stabilizing Afghanistan.

But it is telling that it was YOU who criticized US for not doing more with an Afghanistan version of a 'Marshall Plan' and when I pointed out how flawed that argument really is, it is YOU who have no answers to your own argument.

It is the US (and NATO) who invaded Afghanistan. It is their responsibility to deliver governance to the occupied territories.

So why are there so few muslims collaborating with US/NATO in Afghanistan? Why is this legitimate question considered to be 'anti-Muslim'?

Because it was NATO, not the Muslims, who invaded Afghanistan. It's really not that complicated if you stop looking for excuses.

You Americans (myself being one...or in transition at the very least) need to understand that it is not in the Pakistan Army's core interests to see the US succeed in Afghanistan.

they see Afghanistan as their own playground, and any stable government there will become a friendly nation towards India, which they absolutely detest and will do anything to avoid.

It is in Pakistan's national interest to deny India a puppet government in Afghanistan. The fact that Uncle is helping India as part of its anti-China policy is a new wrinkle.

So dont say that you care for the people of Afghanistan, it is the proxy war you care under the pretext of muslim brothers which is running out of steam now.

Spare me the Muslim generalization!

You have swallowed gambit's medication of viewing everything as a Muslim/non-Muslim issue. I care for Afghanistan because its people deserve to live a normal life like everyone else, regardless of their religion. Whether they are Muslim or Buddhist has nothing to do with it.

If Pakistan deals with honesty in Afghanistan, there is no way Afghans would turn their face to India and their back to Pakistan.

Wrong. Reality is a lot more complicated than facile simplifications. Neither India, nor Pakistan (or Iran), will leave Afghanistan alone for historical reasons.

You have implied on a number of occasions that the Afghans only turned to India after being betrayed by Pakistan. That is simply false and betrays your bias in the debate. The fact is that India has been meddling in Afghanistan since 1947, trying to exploit and ignite Afghan resentment of the Durand line and their claims upon NWFP. Pakistan can not, and will not, let India foment trouble at our backs.

And who would be the best people to lift Afghanistan out of the 'developing' stage and into the 21st century? Even we Americans say -- the muslims.

The Muslims have not undertaken a contract to clean up NATO's messes around the world.

You invade a country, You clean it up.

And do try to set your bigotry aside for a while and see people as human beings instead of as Muslims or non-Muslims.

If you feel like bloviating against Muslims, just open a new thread titled 'I hate Muslims' and vent your venom. You will surely get plenty of company from many posters here, and will do us a favor by not derailing other threads.

 

[Ahmad]

It is in Pakistan's national interest to deny India a puppet government in Afghanistan. The fact that Uncle is helping India as part of its anti-China policy is a new wrinkle.

In other words proxy situation. Never claim freedom and care for Afghans, cuz they will be under pakistan(Taliban), if they are not under another country, so no difference for people of that country.


I care for Afghanistan because its people deserve to live a normal life like everyone else, regardless of their religion. Whether they are Muslim or Buddhist has nothing to do with it.

If that is true then dont wish them further war, death and destruction.


Wrong. Reality is a lot more complicated than facile simplifications. Neither India, nor Pakistan (or Iran), will leave Afghanistan alone for historical reasons.


Very true what you said, proxy proxy proxy and proxy.


You have implied on a number of occasions that the Afghans only turned to India after being betrayed by Pakistan. That is simply false and betrays your bias in the debate. The fact is that India has been meddling in Afghanistan since 1947, trying to exploit and ignite Afghan resentment of the Durand line and their claims upon NWFP. Pakistan can not, and will not, let India foment trouble at our backs.


it is not false, you simply dont accept the truth. India and Pakistan have had this problem since their independance, regarding the issue of durand line( i am completely surprised that you used this term, for me as an Afghan, there is not this so called line between afghanistan and paksitan, it is a properly internationally recognized border between us). This issue of NWFP was soley the policy and desire of Afghan governments that time(zahir shah, and then his cousin Mohammad Daud), india might have been happy to see them insist on territorial despute with Pakistan, but they never had anything imposed on them to engage in such a dispute with pakistan. Since you and others are quite keen on ethnic composition of afghanistan, you need to know that anybody who puts claim on NWFP are nobody but hardcore pashtoon nationalists, you will never see this among the majority of Afghans especially the non pashtoons. One more thing, never be that much happy about the Taliban, cuz they are the religious version of Zahir and Daud. Time will show that they wont be a worthy puppet, they will bite you back.

 

[waraich66]

It is not a blame and it is not a game. this is the truth, deep down you agree with me but cant say it in the public. What has Zia Ul Haq did except making fructures among afghan resistance to use them for his own purposes. please dont bring this muslim umah because it has been mixed up with politics and has lost its meaning except in relation between people with people.

Zia unite all Afghans and trained them , what else he should do ?????? ahsan faramushi achi bat nahi

Why your are allergic with ummah

Well said Iqbal

Fard hai milat se tanha kuch nahi
Moug hai darya me berune darya kuch nahi


Better read muslim history and grow man

 

[Ahmad]

Zia unite all Afghans and trained them , what else he should do ?????? ahsan faramushi achi bat nahi

Why your are allergic with ummah

Well said Iqbal

Fard hai milat se tanha kuch nahi
Moug hai darya me berune darya kuch nahi


Better read muslim history and grow man

you are the master of twisting the truth. Zia united all of them? He made 7 different groups, although in the begining there was only one. He supported them and funded them differently, he ecouraged one against the other(for example Rabbani and Gulbudin), then after the mujahideen took over afghanistan it was pakistan which fuled more fighting between different groups. please dont mix up people of pakistan with gov of pakistan. Muslim Umeh is correct in terms of pakistani and afghanistani public, not Sharif, Zardar or Ul Haq, they were playing politics and thats it. And please dont bring Great Alama Iqbal in the middle of such a messy and dis honest situation. He was great and people of Afghanistan have special honour for him.

 

[waraich66]

their support is limited to some areas, not all afghanistan. and they have got all the necessary weapons to fight, they are not short of any weapon or amunitions. the only party who is facing defeat is afghan people.

That is why ISAF is confined to few cities only under siege and now offering 6 provinces to talaban .

Kasiane bili Khamba nuchi

Oh really? what a logic!! you must be a master of economics!! What will their gov be like without a tax system? How will they deliver the services to people, you have already said that they(taliban) didnt want the help of world bank, NGOs etc, so how can they manage all these? the armed forces, police, healthcare, education, social services, justice and alot more? as a matter of fact they didnt care about all these during their rule, and they will do it again. they closed dwon schools, there was no healthcare and nothing. And regarding saudi arabia, they have got that vast amount of oil, thats why they dont bother taxing people.

Talaban are giving tough resistance to ISAF (US and NATO ) , they can generate money and resources through their network all over the world.

Infact two different idealogies are in war with each other , track record of winning the battles of Talaban is better than US , let me clear your Battle fought and won by morale not with weapons.

yes, thats why the westerners are clever and we are not. they have got their proper system and we dont. what if Saudi's oil runs out or the world dont need their oil because of some other alternatives?

Dont forget Arab defeated Roman and Perisian super power with out oil money with divine power.