Are Muslims Better Off in Quaid-e-Azam M.A. Jinnah's Pakistan Today?

[Sashan]

The OP is nothing but a cherry picking of few indicators where Pakistan has been doing well compared to India and a subjective interpretation of Sachar committee report to project the muslim conditions in India.

1. First the Sachar committee report itself - Not sure whether the OP has read the 425 page Sachar report.

Just repeating what I posted in another thread few weeks back -

"I have been through most of it including the methodology used by Sachar Committee. Many of the discriminations quoted above - if you look at his report, he does not come to conclusion. Rather he used the word "alleged" everywhere when talking about discrimination.

He points out the reason as for the low literacy among muslims it is lack of private schools in muslim majority regions and quality government schools in those areas(and this is the case not specific to muslim majority regions alone) - And one more reason is the low returns on education as perceived by the muslims. I can point out numerous issues quoted in the Sachar report - female discrimination and so low literacy rate among muslim women, Ghettoism and slams the government for not doing much(but mind it - government can't do something specifically for a particular community alone as it is a violation of Indian constitution)"


- So the conditions of the muslims are self imposed mostly while other minorities - sikhs, jains,buddhists,parsis, christians flourish in India.


2. As for the indicators that OP has chosen to project his view - if one looks at the worldbank data, there are some 50-100 indicators and if one looks at different indicators, there are some where India has better nos while Pakistan has better nos in others. So the OP has clearly done some cherry picking.


As a sample, for his indicator related to education, I can post my own cherry picked indicator as well to show India is better off -

So at the end of the day, India or Pakistan is nowhere near the levels of developed countries and benchmarking themselves with the developed countries and strive to achieve those levels would be the appropriate way.

 

[Pakistanisage]

We have relatives in India.

We all were at the same level in 1947.

Now we are miles ahead of them (and I am not being pompous here). And No Indian can convince us that Muslims get equal opportunities in India. They do not. They face HUGE amounts of discrimination.

If it was not for the mota bhatta Khor Altaf, we would have progressed even more.

But too bad many of the Urdu speakers still carry this angry-Bihari mentality and they refused to accept Sindhis as their new brothers. And thus still caught in the Bihari-ism Mohajir-ism.peace

The mota bhatta khor was never the Prime Minister or the President of Pakistan.

But the Ganja Haram Khor was Prime Minister of Pakistan - Twice.

And the theives from the Bhutto clan were - four times ( including the Ghar Damad Chor).

And Pakistan has gone from bad to worse.

So you can't blame Urdu Speakers for the Fcuked up economy and the deteriorating security situation of Pakistan. It is the Punjabis who elected Asif Ali Zardari Chor as the President considering that you guys are the majority voters of Pakistan.

I have had enough of you ignorant fools blaming Urdu speaking people for all your screw ups ( I am not a fan of Altaf Hussain and very small percentage of Urdu speaking people support him),

 

[KRAIT]

@Pakistanisage This is he problem. They are too much occupied in proving they have done better than Indian Muslims while ignoring that their own politicians have created such a mess. They bring religion in everything to compare but the reality is that the conditions of each population depends on other major factors.

Its typical blame game that happens in our sub-continent. Its the internal problem of both our countries for this mess while we have fun in showing each other a weird sense of superiority.

 

[Rana4pak]

The mota bhatta khor was never the Prime Minister or the President of Pakistan.

But the Ganja Haram Khor was Prime Minister of Pakistan - Twice.

And the theives from the Bhutto clan were - four times ( including the Ghar Damad Chor).

And Pakistan has gone from bad to worse.

So you can't blame Urdu Speakers for the F***ed economy and the deteriorating security situation of Pakistan. It is the Punjabis who elected Asif Ali Zardari Chor as the President considering that you guys are the majority voters of Pakistan.

I have had enough of you ignorant fools blaming Urdu speaking people for all your screw ups ( I am not a fan of Altaf Hussain and very small percentage of Urdu speaking people support him),

why so much hate for punjabi is some one fcuk u

 

[RazPaK]

You need to be more specific.

You are saying there is no census in Pakistan?

Use common sense. If we didn't have a census our nation would be over run with foreigners and any other criminal through out the world.

Our census bureau stops you on the street and asks you for id and full statement of history. It has happened to me as well.

Also many Afghan illegals have been counted this way at truck stops, bazaars and other places.

Official count may or may not be disclosed, but to think Pakistan does not conduct a census is retarded.

 

[Doctor Death]

Just in Today:
IMF warns Pakistan economy deteriorating

Only 3% growth!!!!

Pakistan's economy shows no signs of improvement: Experts

Videos – The Express Tribune

 

[Icewolf]

Of course Muslims are doing better in Pakistan. Indian Muslims receive so much hate, discrimination, bias, prejudice, and torture from the Hindus. No one can deny that.

IMF warns Pakistan economy deteriorating


Pakistan's economy shows no signs of improvement: Experts

Videos – The Express Tribune

http://www.icra.in/Files/ticker/ICRA Eco Outlook.pdf

 

[Pakistanisage]

why so much hate for punjabi is some one fcuk u

No you moron, read the post I am responding to you idiot.

Give me some evidence that you have any brains in that thick skull of yours.

 

[Doctor Death]

http://www.icra.in/Files/ticker/ICRA Eco Outlook.pdf

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324024004578174401375299468.html

 

[Rana4pak]

No you moron, read the post I am responding to you idiot.

chawal insan u put blame (punjabi) on us regarding zardari as u didnot know ppp dont have so many seats 4rm punjab its bcz of anp plus mqm plus pmlq not bcz of punjab

 

[Zarvan]

Then why you guys give this idea that Indian Muslims are in bad condition due to oppression by Hindus whereas the reality is that they are in bad condition because of lack of education, large family sizes, past poor conditions and many other factors that also resulted in over 450 million poor people in India including Hindus too. Still Indian minorities have more say in the govt. than Pakistani minorities have in theirs.

Its so selective of you guys when you put your bad position on governance whereas lecture us on so called religious intolerance for Indian Muslims' condition.

By the way same Jinnah's Pakistan lost in Asian Champions Hockey semi-final yesterday. Again selective of your wins and ignoring losses. How typical ?

Sir because that is the reality Sir Muslims of India are in far worse condition than Muslims around the world only few % Bollywood style Muslims are in worse conditions we still have a chance if we change our leaders but Indian Muslims until they are part of India they can't progress and also will not be able to follow many orders of Islam and the slaughter they face and those who slaughter them gets support of their fellow countrymen I mean Modi Thackrey and others like them Indian Muslims are living in far worse conditions than many shuders

 

[RazPaK]

chawal insan u put blame (punjabi) on us regarding zardari as u didnot know ppp dont have so many seats 4rm punjab its bcz of anp plus mqm plus pmlq not bcz of punjab

Oy tanda ho jaa.

Yeh Pakistanage jo bhi galaat baat kar ra hain, humara bezurg hain.

 

[Azazel]

1. Muslims, the New Untouchables in India:

While India maintains its facade of religious tolerance, democracy and secularism through a few high-profile Muslim tokens among its high officials and celebrities, the ground reality for the vast majority of ordinary Muslims is much harsher.

An Indian government commission headed by former India Chief Justice Rajendar Sachar confirms that Muslims are the new untouchables in caste-ridden and communal India. Indian Muslims suffer heavy discrimination in almost every field from education and housing to jobs. Their incarceration rates are also much higher than their Hindu counterparts.

According to Sachar Commission report, Muslims are now worse off than the Dalit caste, or those called untouchables. Some 52% of Muslim men are unemployed, compared with 47% of Dalit men. Among Muslim women, 91% are unemployed, compared with 77% of Dalit women. Almost half of Muslims over the age of 46 ca not read or write. While making up 11% of the population, Muslims account for 40% of India’s prison population. Meanwhile, they hold less than 5% of government jobs

Majority of Muslims lives in underdeveloped provinces of India,its been like that for centuries.Pakistan got the most prosperous province in British empire.Indian Muslims are comparatively backward to other population.this is a sad reality.

2. Upward Economic Mobility in Pakistan:

In spite of all of its problems, Pakistan has continued to offer higher upward economic and social mobility to its citizens over the last two decades than India. Since 1990, Pakistan's middle class had expanded by 36.5% and India's by only 12.8%, according to an ADB report titled "Asia's Emerging Middle Class: Past, Present And Future".

Miles Corak of University of Ottawa calculates that the intergenerational earnings elasticity in Pakistan is 0.46, the same as in Switzerland. It means that a difference of 100% between the incomes of a rich father and a poor father is reduced to 46% difference between their sons' incomes. Among the 22 countries studied, Peru, China and Brazil have the lowest economic mobility with inter-generational elasticity of 0.67, 0.60 and 0.58 respectively. The highest economic mobility is offered by Denmark (0.15), Norway (0.17) and Finland (0.18).

The author also looked at Gini coefficient of each country and found reasonably good correlation between Gini and intergenerational income elasticity.

More evidence of upward mobility is offered by recent Euromonitor market research indicating that Pakistanis are seeing rising disposable incomes. It says that there were 1.8 million Pakistani households (7.55% of all households) and 7.9 million Indian households (3.61% of all households) in 2009 with disposable incomes of $10,001 or more. This translates into 282% increase (vs 232% in India) from 1995-2009 in households with disposable incomes of $10,001 or more. Consumer spending in Pakistan has increased at a 26 percent average pace the past three years, compared with 7.7 percent for Asia, according to Bloomberg.

Definition of middle class varies from each country.Especially in a developing country.intergenerational earnings elasticity is not a index to measure economic progress for devoping country like India.Datas are unavialable.About disposable income we have higher income taxes compared to Pakistan much much higher and more people in India pay taxes compared to Pakistan.So why don't you talk about total personal income.And Why don't compare increase consumer spending of Pakistan to India and Bangladesh here Mr Haq???

3. East Pakistan Debacle:

Critics love to point out Pakistan's break-up in 1971 as evidence of failure of Jinnah's Pakistan.
They lavish praise on Bangladesh and scold Pakistan as part of the annual ritual a few days before Quaid-e-Azam's birthday every year.

Economic gap between East and West Pakistan in 1960s is often cited as a key reason for the secessionist movement led by Shaikh Mujib's Awami League and the creation of Bangladesh in 1971. This disparity has grown over the last 40 years, and the per capita income in Pakistan now stands at more than twice Bangladesh's in 2012 in nominal dollar terms, higher than 1.6 in 1971.

Here are some figures from Economist magazine's EIU 2013:

Bangladesh GDP per head: $695 (PPP: $1,830)

Pakistan GDP per head: $1,410 (PPP: $2,960)

Pakistan-Bangladesh GDP per head Ratio: 2.03 ( PPP: 1.62)

Of course no mention of India here though.Why is that Mr Haq???

4. Poverty, Hunger, Other Socioeconomic Indicators:

Pakistan's employment growth has been the highest in South Asia region since 2000, followed by Nepal, Bangladesh, India, and Sri Lanka in that order, according to a recent World Bank report titled "More and Better Jobs in South Asia".


Total employment in South Asia (excluding Afghanistan and Bhutan) rose from 473 million in 2000 to 568 million in 2010, creating an average of just under 800,000 new jobs a month. In all countries except Maldives and Sri Lanka, the largest share of the employed are the low‐end self-employed.

Only talks about quantity of jobs,no one knows what kind of job we are talking about.And Pakistan also had the highest percentage increase in working age population in South Asia.These people have to do some kind of jobs to make the living.This is just a result of population explosion of Pakistan.No miracle

Pakistanis have higher graduation rates in education and suffer lower levels of hunger and poverty than Indians and Bangladeshis.

Pakistanis spend more time in schools and colleges and graduate at a higher rate than their Indian counterparts in 15+ age group, according to a report on educational achievement by Harvard University researchers Robert Barro and Jong-Wha Lee.

Here is a summary of Barro-Lee's 2010 data in percentage of 15+ age group students who have enrolled in and-or completed primary, secondary and tertiary education:

Education Level.......India........Pakistan

Primary (Total)........20.9..........21.8

Primary (Completed)....18.9..........19.3

Secondary(Total).......40.7..........34.6

Secondary(Completed)...0.9...........22.5

College(Total).........5.8...........5.5

College(Completed).....3.1...........3.9

Why don't you talk about Pakistan's stagnated literacy rates.Or anything about Pakistans school education now.After all Your 35% of population is below 15 years.Why such dishonesty.
If you look at youth and adult literacy Pakistan lags much behind other South Asian countries

According to the latest world hunger index rankings, Pakistan ranks 57 while India and Bangladesh are worse at 65 and 68 among 79 countries ranked by International Food Policy Research Institute in 2012.

World Hunger Index 2012

The latest World Bank data shows that India's poverty rate of 27.5%, based on India's current poverty line of $1.03 per person per day, is more than 10 percentage points higher than Pakistan's 17.2%. Assam (urban), Punjab and Himachal Pradesh are the only three Indian states with similar or lower poverty rates than Pakistan's.

This is some where you have done really well.Congratulations.

Clearly, Pakistanis have not lived up to Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah's vision of a tolerant and democratic Pakistan where the basic rights of all of its citizens, including religious and ethnic minorities, are fully respected. Popular Pakistani columnist Ardeshir Cowasjee put it well when he wrote: "Fortunately for him, Jinnah did not live long enough to see his dream betrayed by men unworthy even to utter his name. He died before total disillusionment could set in (though he had his suspicions that it was on its way) and broke his heart. From what we know of him, he was that rare being, an incorruptible man in all the many varied meanings of the word corruption, purchasable by no other, swayed by no other, perverted by no other; a man of honor, integrity and high ideals. That the majority of his countrymen have been found wanting in these qualities is this country's tragedy."

I do think, however, that all of the available and credible data and indicators confirm the fact that Muslims in Pakistan are not only much better off than they are elsewhere in South Asia, they also enjoy higher economic and social mobility than their counterparts in India and Bangladesh.

Haq's Musings: Are Muslims Worse Off in Jinnah's Pakistan?

If you wanna do compare all South Asian countries.Why don't you do an compare it with a level playing field.Why be such a weasel.This dishonesty and lies only shows your deep rooted insecurity.

 

[Rana4pak]

Oy tanda ho jaa.

Yeh Pakistanage jo bhi galaat baat kar ra hain, humara bezurg hain.

dude now its a national duty to put every blame on punjab

 

[Azazel]

Sir because that is the reality Sir Muslims of India are in far worse condition than Muslims around the world only few % Bollywood style Muslims are in worse conditions we still have a chance if we change our leaders but Indian Muslims until they are part of India they can't progress and also will not be able to follow many orders of Islam and the slaughter they face and those who slaughter them gets support of their fellow countrymen I mean Modi Thackrey and others like them Indian Muslims are living in far worse conditions than many shuders

Oh Boy.Muslims in Pakistan are following all orders in Islam and making tremendous progress.
You some times are really funny.BTW,How many Pakistanis died this year from terrorists attacks.