Anti Maoist Squadron are being trained by Israeli now

[jha]

Dont know how much will this help. Both forces fight entirely different kind of insurgencies... Planning of Maoists is much better than what Israelis face..

 

[trinity]

Firstly, the Mumbai incident was a failure not because of the training but because of the logistics.

Had NSG been present in Mumbai the situation wont have taken this long to get over with.Now this has been changed by having NSG units all around the country plus them having aircrafts whenever they require.

Secondly,talking of Urban Warfare..I think the forces only take a decision when they face that situation.We didnt face urban combat situation till recently.Most of our operations are in mountainous or jungle terrain and that is why the Western Armies were better than us in Urban Combat while the same cannot be said for Mountainous and Jungle warfare.



Israelis criticsed Mumbai Police guys or the Force 1 recruits who went to them for training and their comments were like "these guys dont even know to run and fire"...These guys lacked basic training also and thatswhy i said had they undertaken training under NSG or Marcos atleast the criticism part could have been avoided.

And whats the benefit afterall??...Delhi Police SWAT are trained by NSG and they are as lethal as force 1 if not better.

I disagree. There were many problems evident, logistics being just one. YOU DONT HAVE TO BE NSG TO ESTABLISH A BLOODY PERIMETER AROUND THE ENTIRE HOTEL. SECONDLY, WHERE WAS THE AUTHORITY TO FORCE A MEDIA BLACKOUT? I can point out so many holes in operational procedures, it will look like swiss cheese.

About the Urban Warfare comment. You proved why our thinking has not changed. You just like many other ppl think in order to train for such scenario's, we had to have such experiences. Wrong! We need to learn what other forces around the world are doing and what are the weak points they are encountering, so that we can apply to our own doctrine. Waiting and sitting around for such an "experience" will teach us a lesson out of countless lessons. Our planning is in dire need of change. Ample proof is all around us yet we make so many excuses. Time to cut it out, and confess we have some major problems. Only then can we rectify it.



Dude you cant be upset with the Israeli assessment. I stated the same thing before. Many of our ppl have not seen the world, and only see what they are shown or taught. Cops in other nations are taught this at a basic level.


All I hear are excuses and that;s what upsets me the most. When will I hear, one person say you are correct desperate times call for desperate measures? Tell me is there any way, we can contact ppl who actually care in the govt or forces? Every country adapts to present situations. But the ones that prepare for future conflict have a distinct advantage.

Dont know how much will this help. Both forces fight entirely different kind of insurgencies... Planning of Maoists is much better than what Israelis face..

No its not that the planning is better. We have given the Maoists the best opportunities to use their devastating tactics. Israel counters any weakness and nips it ASAP. So, the planning the Palestinians use, has one disadvantage. It is terrorism that relies heavily on a moment of opportunity.

 

[MilSpec]

Shouldn't Anti-Moist Squadron be called DRY SQUADRON

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I disagree. There were many problems evident, logistics being just one. YOU DONT HAVE TO BE NSG TO ESTABLISH A BLOODY PERIMETER AROUND THE ENTIRE HOTEL. SECONDLY, WHERE WAS THE AUTHORITY TO FORCE A MEDIA BLACKOUT? I can point out so many holes in operational procedures, it will look like swiss cheese.

Who said there was no outer cordon laid?The Police had laid a outer cordon and they were even involved in the inner ring..You need to read more about the operation.

Media Blackout is a Govt decision...I hope you are not blamming the NSG for it.

About the Urban Warfare comment. You proved why our thinking has not changed. You just like many other ppl think in order to train for such scenario's, we had to have such experiences. Wrong! We need to learn what other forces around the world are doing and what are the weak points they are encountering, so that we can apply to our own doctrine. Waiting and sitting around for such an "experience" will teach us a lesson out of countless lessons. Our planning is in dire need of change. Ample proof is all around us yet we make so many excuses. Time to cut it out, and confess we have some major problems. Only then can we rectify it.

I hope you realise you belong to India..There was a scarcity of budget in the 90s..We dont have 600 billion $ otherwise we could have anything we wanted.

Dude you cant be upset with the Israeli assessment. I stated the same thing before. Many of our ppl have not seen the world, and only see what they are shown or taught. Cops in other nations are taught this at a basic level.

I am not upset..I am only amazed at the stupidity of Mumbai Police.

There is NOTHING that the Force 1 guys learnt which Delhi SWAT doesnt know about "despite being trained in India"...Hope you get my point.

Infact,NSG guys can do 100 times better room intervention drills than what i saw in the video.

All I hear are excuses and that;s what upsets me the most. When will I hear, one person say you are correct desperate times call for desperate measures? Tell me is there any way, we can contact ppl who actually care in the govt or forces?

Why dont you become the difference..Its easy to criticise and tuff to do something about it in real world.

 

[Sergi]

That shows how pathetic decisions Mumbai police takes....sending recruits who dont even know to handle a weapon for advanced training.

And sorry you are mistaken here...The thing is Force 1 will go first but will eventually end up forming the outer cordon..nothing else...Only NSG will handle the inner operation...There is a HUGE difference between NSG and Force 1 even after Israeli/Russian training.

NSG guys are Army guys who have "been there done that" in military operations from North East to Kashmir...The training facilities in Manesar is "incomparable" to what Force 1 would have...The experience,The stratergy,The weapons etc is simply incomparable to any other Police unit in India.



Its not the fault of Israelis..Its the fault of Mumbai Police sending beginners for advanced training...They could have sent these Police guys for 3 months training under NSG where they would have learnt a lot and then it would have made sense training under Israeli Border Guards...atleast would have avoided the embaressment.

....By the way its not their fault...I bet not many Mumbai Police guys would even know what NSG/Marcos/Garuds are before 26/11

hahaaha I didn't expect anything like this from atleast from you . "Mumbai Police" didn't came from caves recruitment of Maharashtra police is though competitive Exam even for constables. For officers apart from IPS everybody came from MPSC which conduct competitive exams for state.
and what do you think how Marcos show up in 26/11 ???
1. Pathetic decision ??? Serving age for force one is 28 and for officers it's 32. Maharashtra already running on worst police to population ratio. Sending beginners for "Training" NOT ADVANCE TRAING" was the right Choise as these guies fresh from Acadamy with better physical fittness and younger from rest of force.
Maharashtra govt has old and bad habit to go for best. Israeli forces are better in Arban warfare than anybody. This is because there trainning and experience of such situations. NSG is good no doubt but if we compare the experience of NSG It is on lower side as compare to Israelis.

2. And sorry you are mistaken here...The thing is Force 1 will go first but will eventually end up forming the outer cordon..nothing else...Only NSG will handle the inner operation...There is a HUGE difference between NSG and Force 1 even after Israeli/Russian training:
It's not me who said that. Its what "Home Minister of Maharashatra" Mr. R.R. Patil say in the interviews to media while opening FORCE ONE station in Mumbai. NSG will be called if and only if State can't handle the situation. ( it's a standard protocol. Centre can't send NSG without states request and state definatly will make it matter of pride )
I am feeling like you are thinking Force One as regular police and inferior. Kindly change your opinion. These guies are not less than NSG. And yes "Russian and Isareli trainning" is definatly something that all SWAT like forces should get.

3. NSG guys are Army guys who have "been there done that" in military operations from North East to Kashmir...The training facilities in Manesar is "incomparable" to what Force 1 would have...The experience,The stratergy,The weapons etc is simply incomparable to any other Police unit in India
Nobody is arguing NSGs supremacy over Indian police. But how Much experience NSG has in Arban warfare if you compare it will say Isareli or Russian experience ??? And supremacy change with "time,TRAING and experience" and Mumbai will be home ground for force one

4. Its not the fault of Israelis..Its the fault of Mumbai Police sending beginners for advanced training...They could have sent these Police guys for 3 months training under NSG where they would have learnt a lot and then it would have made sense training under Israeli Border Guards...atleast would have avoided the embaressment.
You are forgetting time pressure here. Maharashtra government was under very much pressure after 26/11 and they plan "Force One" in very hurried manner with the promise of making F1 operational before two years. So may be they decide for one and all training with iisraeli BGs.
I don't understand what embarrassment you are talking about ??? It was truth. Nothing to be ashamed of. Even those Israeli guies were aware of the fact that Force oNe was beginner force. Trainning schedule start from basics. Please correct your term "ADVANCED TRAINNING". Those guies were sent to plain training from BIG ZERO with basic acadmy trainning of Law and primary weapons and if you don't know Israeli investigation team that came to Mumbai after 26/11 put a question mark on NSGs abilities to handle such situation too.
If you think I am a fan of Maharashatra Police I know M.P. is same as remaining India police. But these Force One guies are 100 times better than M.P.

 

[Sergi]

Surprise surprise I was wrong about the first batch of Force One
The Hindu : Front Page : A smart anti-terror force for Mumbai now

 

[trinity]

Who said there was no outer cordon laid?The Police had laid a outer cordon and they were even involved in the inner ring..You need to read more about the operation.

Media Blackout is a Govt decision...I hope you are not blamming the NSG for it.





I hope you realise you belong to India..There was a scarcity of budget in the 90s..We dont have 600 billion $ otherwise we could have anything we wanted.



I am not upset..I am only amazed at the stupidity of Mumbai Police.

There is NOTHING that the Force 1 guys learnt which Delhi SWAT doesnt know about "despite being trained in India"...Hope you get my point.

Infact,NSG guys can do 100 times better room intervention drills than what i saw in the video.




Why dont you become the difference..Its easy to criticise and tuff to do something about it in real world.

The cordon you mention did not stop any media and crowds from standing right next to the hotel. Govt blackout, well in such cases where ppl are being held hostage, the local police forces should have the ability to ontact local media to block it. Look at Wisconsin, US where the local police chief asked the media for a black out till they figured out what was going on. The problem is govt should not be in charge of tactical operations. They are not on the scene to make such calls. Im not blaming NSG, but there are glaring operational failures.

Dude, as for budgeting...listen I know quite well the lack of budget we had especially when we UP chief minister telling ministers "to work hard, steal little." That statement alone should wake us all UP!!! It doesn;t take much to train. Soldiers can easily put up a few buulding with brick and mortar. The main thing is thinking up such scenarios and allowing our ppl to evolve tactics around it.


I also understand your point about the caliber of NSG and Force 1 but being based in Delhi, I kind of expect it. But to be quite honest, they lacked even the most fundamental gear till recently. Videos are choregraphed bro, so I wouldn;t pay too much attention to it.

I have no problem helping India but being an American Citizen, the Indian govt wont allow me to help as much as I can. YOu have to understand when it comes to matters of defence, the Indian govt doensn;t want ppl with a broader outlook to get involved coz we will expose how backward our govt is and how they do everything possible to maintain this status quo. All Im asking for is one contact person to communicate to. Its tough no doubt about it. But its worse when govt apathy prevents progress. I dont blame the common soldier but everyone else is guilty for letting it get this bad.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

hahaaha I didn't expect anything like this from atleast from you . "Mumbai Police" didn't came from caves recruitment of Maharashtra police is though competitive Exam even for constables. For officers apart from IPS everybody came from MPSC which conduct competitive exams for state.
and what do you think how Marcos show up in 26/11 ???
.

Dude..Cmon..I am not a Diplomat i speak what i see...I will be very surprised if now also Mumbai Police inspectors and constable know what Garud is and what its role is...Competitive exams dont teach you about the Armed forces in the country...I know people in good respectable positions who dont know about the Special Forces in our country.

What i think how Marcos showed up...Simple coz the Mumbai Police was unable to control the situation and then they contacted the GOC of the IA stationed there...The GOC told them that they dont have PARA commandos in mumbai but they can contact the Navy for MARCOS...Hence the Marcos came in.

1. Pathetic decision ??? Serving age for force one is 28 and for officers it's 32. Maharashtra already running on worst police to population ratio. Sending beginners for "Training" NOT ADVANCE TRAING" was the right Choise as these guies fresh from Acadamy with better physical fittness and younger from rest of force.
Maharashtra govt has old and bad habit to go for best. Israeli forces are better in Arban warfare than anybody. This is because there trainning and experience of such situations. NSG is good no doubt but if we compare the experience of NSG It is on lower side as compare to Israelis.

Sending recruits who dont even know the basics of combat is a stupid decision to say the least..Would have been better had they approached the NSG for initial training and then went on for Israeli instructors.

Maharastra govt has a habit of going for the best?... ...Lets compare SWAT with Force 1..On one hand we have a force which is fully trained in India by NSG and fully operational...and on the other we have a Super Duper Force trained by Super Elite Israelis yet we get to read this..

Is Force 1 good enough? - Hindustan Times

It's not me who said that. Its what "Home Minister of Maharashatra" Mr. R.R. Patil say in the interviews to media while opening FORCE ONE station in Mumbai. NSG will be called if and only if State can't handle the situation. ( it's a standard protocol. Centre can't send NSG without states request and state definatly will make it matter of pride )
I am feeling like you are thinking Force One as regular police and inferior. Kindly change your opinion. These guies are not less than NSG. And yes "Russian and Isareli trainning" is definatly something that all SWAT like forces should get.

Sorry..For me they are way behind NSG..These make shift Commandos can never match NSG guys who have vast experience fighting terrorism across the country.NSG guys are 100 times more well trained,better equipped than these guys and you know what the biggest diffference is..Its the Leadership...NSG has Army officers belonging to PARA or various Infantry units in the country who "know it all" about Anti terrorism and Hostage situations.

BTW here is what the WIKI says about the role of FORCE 1

It was recently announced that one of their primary tasks will be to protect the Maharashtra Legislature as well as several politicians within the state.

In case of any "large scale attack"...Have no doubt in your mind that NSG Mumbai base guys are going to be operational.

Nobody is arguing NSGs supremacy over Indian police. But how Much experience NSG has in Arban warfare if you compare it will say Isareli or Russian experience ??? And supremacy change with "time,TRAING and experience" and Mumbai will be home ground for force on

NSG guys are Ex Para or Infantry guys who have done all kinds of anti terror operations across the country.Their base in Manesar is the best equipped base for a Commando Unit in India and lastly NSG guys train with GSG.. who are the elites in Urban Warfare.

Comparing a elite soldier of the IA to a Policeman who has only undergon advanced training for a few months under a foreign instructor and has NO experience whatsoever is laughable for me.

You are forgetting time pressure here. Maharashtra government was under very much pressure after 26/11 and they plan "Force One" in very hurried manner with the promise of making F1 operational before two years. So may be they decide for one and all training with iisraeli BGs.
I don't understand what embarrassment you are talking about ??? It was truth. Nothing to be ashamed of. Even those Israeli guies were aware of the fact that Force oNe was beginner force. Trainning schedule start from basics. Please correct your term "ADVANCED TRAINNING". Those guies were sent to plain training from BIG ZERO with basic acadmy trainning of Law and primary weapons and if you don't know Israeli investigation team that came to Mumbai after 26/11 put a question mark on NSGs abilities to handle such situation too.
If you think I am a fan of Maharashatra Police I know M.P. is same as remaining India police. But these Force One guies are 100 times better than M.P.

Yet the Force got operational after 1 year..They could have trained under NSG and become operational much earlier.Those guys who took the decision would have no knowledge about anything..they would have no combat experience..Hence the criticism from israeli media and watching Discovery channel would have made them to believe that they are going for the best...Sometimes going for the best option is not the right option...SWAT even after being trained in India is as lethal if not better than Force 1...What do you have to say about that??

NSG did the best it could..I dont need a Gore ki stamp unlike you guys to appreciate their effort...Those who were commenting have never faced similar situations before..Hence doing commentary is too easy,BTW i also have a Gora's comments for you to know what 26/11 was like...When American Police Officials came to Mumbai to investigate they said that it would be very difficult for even them to handle such situation and have since made a few changes in their response.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

The cordon you mention did not stop any media and crowds from standing right next to the hotel. Govt blackout, well in such cases where ppl are being held hostage, the local police forces should have the ability to ontact local media to block it. Look at Wisconsin, US where the local police chief asked the media for a black out till they figured out what was going on. The problem is govt should not be in charge of tactical operations. They are not on the scene to make such calls. Im not blaming NSG, but there are glaring operational failures.

Dude, as for budgeting...listen I know quite well the lack of budget we had especially when we UP chief minister telling ministers "to work hard, steal little." That statement alone should wake us all UP!!! It doesn;t take much to train. Soldiers can easily put up a few buulding with brick and mortar. The main thing is thinking up such scenarios and allowing our ppl to evolve tactics around it.


I also understand your point about the caliber of NSG and Force 1 but being based in Delhi, I kind of expect it. But to be quite honest, they lacked even the most fundamental gear till recently. Videos are choregraphed bro, so I wouldn;t pay too much attention to it.

I have no problem helping India but being an American Citizen, the Indian govt wont allow me to help as much as I can. YOu have to understand when it comes to matters of defence, the Indian govt doensn;t want ppl with a broader outlook to get involved coz we will expose how backward our govt is and how they do everything possible to maintain this status quo. All Im asking for is one contact person to communicate to. Its tough no doubt about it. But its worse when govt apathy prevents progress. I dont blame the common soldier but everyone else is guilty for letting it get this bad.

You have such a wrong image of our country..i hope its not China you are talking about.Choreographed video??...kIndly show me any such video and lastly the Govt needs people who will do their job and remain secretive..They dont want people to go on Facebook or PDF and share all secret..

 

[Abingdonboy]

^^ tbf the MP's ignorance to the armed forces and SOF units is purely a reflection on the ignorance to such things by the wider general population. I doubt an average guy on the street in Mumbai could tell you what a MARCOs or Garud was but more than likely could tell you all about USN SEALS. Similarly it is hard to criticise a police force for not being aware of such units when no part of their training curriculum will ever be "Indian SOFs 101"!!

 

[ajtr]

Either you bring Israelis or the even the Americans ...the movement which is lead by the people at grassroot level shall never be defeated by any force and history is witness to it when people rise they sink all forces opposing them.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

^^ tbf the MP's ignorance to the armed forces and SOF units is purely a reflection on the ignorance to such things by the wider general population. I doubt an average guy on the street in Mumbai could tell you what a MARCOs or Garud was but more than likely could tell you all about USN SEALS. Similarly it is hard to criticise a police force for not being aware of such units when no part of their training curriculum will ever be "Indian SOFs 101"!!

My point was..had they known they wont have contacted Israeli first.Whats the need of asking for foreigners help when such things exist in the country...Do you know how much money these sessions with Israelis costed us?

Either you bring Israelis or the even the Americans ...the movement which is lead by the people at grassroot level shall never be defeated by any force and history is witness to it when people rise they sink all forces opposing them.

Do you even know that Force 1 is not even involved in Maoist operations...I bet you dont coz you would have read the title and without bothering to analyse the comments by other members you would have done what you are good at...Posting BS ie.


_______________________________________________________________________________________





Most of us seriously need to watch these videos before commenting on NSG...

 

[trinity]

^^ tbf the MP's ignorance to the armed forces and SOF units is purely a reflection on the ignorance to such things by the wider general population. I doubt an average guy on the street in Mumbai could tell you what a MARCOs or Garud was but more than likely could tell you all about USN SEALS. Similarly it is hard to criticise a police force for not being aware of such units when no part of their training curriculum will ever be "Indian SOFs 101"!!

Do you have an idea as the number of Marco we have? Garud is brand spanking new and their numbers are not nearly enough. Nobody is blaming the cops. We are blaming the folks behind the training curriculum and why haven;t they implemented such. The lack of firing guns was brought to the media attention. Isn;t that an area that needs improvement?


You point our ignorance but its you who is ignorant. You fail to see the shortcomings and instead of addressing it, make 101 excuses without providing any solutions.


Listen, when 26/11 happened it highlighted a lot of problems we have. But so did Kargil, and we are yet to take proactive steps. This is a very disturbing trend.

You have such a wrong image of our country..i hope its not China you are talking about.Choreographed video??...kIndly show me any such video and lastly the Govt needs people who will do their job and remain secretive..They dont want people to go on Facebook or PDF and share all secret..

I agree secrecy is crucial in all aspects. But when corruption permeates throughout our country, the rots spreads. Its common knowledge that all these videos are edited. There is nothing wrong with that, its just a fact. Every country does it. The police should be trained to complement our armed forces. They can be used as a complementary force in times of need.

My point was..had they known they wont have contacted Israeli first.Whats the need of asking for foreigners help when such things exist in the country...Do you know how much money these sessions with Israelis costed us?



Do you even know that Force 1 is not even involved in Maoist operations...I bet you dont coz you would have read the title and without bothering to analyse the comments by other members you would have done what you are good at...Posting BS ie.


_______________________________________________________________________________________





Most of us seriously need to watch these videos before commenting on NSG...

Hey I think you should youtube American football training. YOu woud see that the NSG training is just regular training....not a big deal. But I understand the significance of it, since most of our ppl don;t even see such concepts. Have you watched how other nations train. YOu can tell just by watching NSG vid's there is a lack of familiarity with the guns. The way folks grasp, blink, respond to gunfire.....are indicators of lack of experience. Were these folks the first batch? Did they just start? Like I said, the biggest problem is lack of practice with firearms. I have even heard folks on this site post how its expensive and crap, but tell me is the value of human life priceless? Tell what is the value of an Indian citizen to you? Obviously, those in charge don;t plave much value on it. Take a look at Kiran Bedi, she really cleaned up the city when she was employed. Now ask yourself, why does she march with Anna Hazara? Seriously, ask yourself. There are things wrong with India at high levels that cannot be corrected coz those very same corrupt folks are in positions of power and they wont allow change. Like I siad before ask yourself why a highly decorated officier like Kiran Bedi who respects the law and order would choose sides with Hazara? The media is a govt tool don;t ever forget. It will spin the sotry anyway it see fit, in the govt interest. Ask yourself why is it taking so long to enforce black money laws? Dude, you know the answers ........

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I agree secrecy is crucial in all aspects. But when corruption permeates throughout our country, the rots spreads. Its common knowledge that all these videos are edited. There is nothing wrong with that, its just a fact. Every country does it. The police should be trained to complement our armed forces. They can be used as a complementary force in times of need.

Look editing is done by the News Channel..They show what they want to.If there is something else you are pointing to then i dont see a point..If the Govt wants to hide something why would it aloow TV Crews to come in a Military station?

I agree with the rest of your points...Most of the times we are learning from our mistakes but the thing is its not easy to predict things.We hardly respect the security forces when they foil an attempt by the enemies.Even a country like USA which spends so much on security could not predict 9/11.

 

[trinity]

Look editing is done by the News Channel..They show what they want to.If there is something else you are pointing to then i dont see a point..If the Govt wants to hide something why would it aloow TV Crews to come in a Military station?

I agree with the rest of your points...Most of the times we are learning from our mistakes but the thing is its not easy to predict things.We hardly respect the security forces when they foil an attempt by the enemies.Even a country like USA which spends so much on security could not predict 9/11.

Actually the US could have predicted 9/11. There was input of a big plot underway but before 9/11 inter agency cooperation was not good at all. There was a lot of rivalry. As for the media, I agree it not the military editing it. This exercise was an opportunity to show the INdian ppl look at what we are doing. The govt is doing it best to show the efforts its making. Nothing wrong with it.

Its never easy to predict scenarios but look at what the US defence does. It employs the use of futurists to develop hypothetical scenarios. We dont take planning seriously enough, or it seems if we do, then the way we do it seems to be completely compartmentalized which is stifling our progress.