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Anti-headscarf Adana school principal suspended

Conservative families raise conservative childeren, i've come to accept that. Problem arises when conservatives run the government and want to raise a "conservative generation" there is no islam's so-called tolerance in this. You can't shape people's minds as they were some sculptures.

Education system serves to make the childeren all alike, according to one ideology's ideals. Be it religious or nationalistic, doesn't matter.
 
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Of course, it is the (general) perception that matters. Your point of view is your perception on the matter, and me, mine.



Europe insists on "assimilation"?

First of all, sharia law and forced headcover/hijab inherently clashes with European values of freedom and human rights, from their perspective. You cannot tolerate anything and everything when they contradict with your basic values. The Islamic conditioning and relating piety with headcover as I explained before would not be tolerable to European society in general.

If Europe insisted on assimilation "fervently", how can extremist Muslim scholars go around the UK calling for imposing Sharia law for Muslims and Non muslims alike? How can they establish exclusive "sharia zones" where sharia law is imposed even on non muslims? How are they not arrested yet?

"Assimilation" is always relative. When I say Europe is far more welcoming to foreign cultures, I am comparing it to rival countries, not the absolute meaning of "assimilate". Islamic countries are not even prepared to assimilate a rival sect, let alone a different religion. Try being a Shia scholar and preach Shia beliefs in public in Saudi Arabia and see how quickly you are arrested for being an "infidel Shia" who is "misguiding" people. We also know the treatment of minorities in Pakistan - Very few (if any) non muslim who holds upper positions in the government. Leave Europe. How many churches and synagogues are there in Saudi Arabia compared to the no. of mosques in the little country of Israel? Yet you blame Europe for your perceived lack of assimilation of foreign cultures/religion?



When legislating, of course, the general values of the state will be taken into account. For Turkey, this is the ideal of freedom and secularism. For Pakistan, this may be Islamism being an "islamic republic". Secularism and Islamism, theoretically, clash very little but this is a different debate.

And who gives the 'State' the right to speculate on what is or isn't going through the mind of the said person ? Ans: The voters. The state is there to speculate what is right and what is wrong and it is the representative of the majority. For example, theft is a "wrong action". However, for thieves, it may be perceived as a necessary or right action. The values of theft may go against the basic values of "equity" of a state and be made illegal. Similarly:



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Throughout this debate, not once have I blamed "Islam" for this headscarf issue because I know very well Islam neither mandates nor advises any such thing as headscarf, hijab or veil.

The debate is about the "islamic culture", or Islam as it is generally practiced or perceived as "should be practiced" by majority of Muslims. More accurately, you can say we are debating whether "Arab cultural imperialism in the garb of Islam" should be assimilated/allowed by other cultures or not, especially by a secular society like Turkey and Europe.

I am at a short of time and will reply to the rest of your post as I get the opportunity.

The term "secularism" was first used by the British writer George Jacob Holyoake in 1851. secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief

This gentleman has given all of us a word that is widely used and abused with out knowing the definition completely another question arises from the same that why the so called European or western values are rated higher than eastern value system?
 
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The term "secularism" was first used by the British writer George Jacob Holyoake in 1851. secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief

This gentleman has given all of us a word that is widely used and abused with out knowing the definition completely another question arises from the same that why the so called European or western values are rated higher than eastern value system?

Western values will obviously be rated higher because they have actually made Europe and West into the developed and civilized society as they are now, as opposed to eastern values (which values?) which have failed to do so for the most part.

Those who adopted superior western values such as Turkey have progressed more than the rest of the Islamic world, for example. This proves Western basic values, as outlined by Ebenstein and Fogelman, are far superior to Eastern values. They are at least superior to the values, morals and ideals practiced in Islamic countries.

Why come to it when China is violataing Muslims religious right to fast during Ramadan?
How many muslim nations have gone against China on this issue?

Chinese Muslims banned from fasting in Ramadan - MuslimVillage.com | MuslimVillage.com

So please dont shed no crocodial tears on this....

This is obvious hypocrisy. Many people here shed crocodile tears for Chechen and Palestinian terrorists but never do so for Pakistan's taliban terrorists. The same people will support Afghan taliban but cover up China by saying ETIM militants are "CIA sponsored" because they are the national ally of their country at a time when they are pretty much isolated by the rest of the world.

If you agree that terrorism is not nice, then condemn all terrorist groups or condemn none if you support terrorism. Don't be partial in your judgment.
 
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Let's raise our children naked. When they're 18 they can decide if they want to wear these oppressive clothes or not :rofl:

I can make you a logical explanation why you shouldn't raise your children naked. But can you (any of you) please explain me, what is logical or moral about forcing 10 year old kid to wear like a nun in the middle of summer. Why would you want to make her isolated from her friends. Why would you want to pump 'fear of Allah' in minds of 10 year old children?

You keep saying the same thing: "it is up to their parents to decide how to raise their children according to their cultures"... But you can not raise your children as a child-worker, state will not let you, even it is part of your culture. They are both abusement for children, simple as that.
 
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Of course, it is the (general) perception that matters. Your point of view is your perception on the matter, and me, mine.



Europe insists on "assimilation"?

First of all, sharia law and forced headcover/hijab inherently clashes with European values of freedom and human rights, from their perspective. You cannot tolerate anything and everything when they contradict with your basic values. The Islamic conditioning and relating piety with headcover as I explained before would not be tolerable to European society in general.

If Europe insisted on assimilation "fervently", how can extremist Muslim scholars go around the UK calling for imposing Sharia law for Muslims and Non muslims alike? How can they establish exclusive "sharia zones" where sharia law is imposed even on non muslims? How are they not arrested yet?

"Assimilation" is always relative. When I say Europe is far more welcoming to foreign cultures, I am comparing it to rival countries, not the absolute meaning of "assimilate". Islamic countries are not even prepared to assimilate a rival sect, let alone a different religion. Try being a Shia scholar and preach Shia beliefs in public in Saudi Arabia and see how quickly you are arrested for being an "infidel Shia" who is "misguiding" people. We also know the treatment of minorities in Pakistan - Very few (if any) non muslim who holds upper positions in the government. Leave Europe. How many churches and synagogues are there in Saudi Arabia compared to the no. of mosques in the little country of Israel? Yet you blame Europe for your perceived lack of assimilation of foreign cultures/religion?

Where are you taking this discussion to ? When did I make this a d*ck measuring contest between what the 'West allows and what we allow' ? What has the number of mosques in Israel or the number of synagogues in Pakistan got to do with one's personal choice to teach 'x,y,z' values to their children, to dress as they see fit and define 'modesty' and 'immodesty' as they see it fit !

My only contention was that 'why should the Western perspective on what is modest and what isn't ?, 'what is normal and what isn't ?' should be the barometer that everyone else should be measured by ? How is wrapping your head with a 'scarf' for a Muslim any more in contravention with the values of 'freedom and human rights' that the West espouses as its own, as it is for a Non-Muslim to do the same thing ? What is inherently 'abusive' of teaching your kid to wear a headscarf ? Why is 'that piece of clothing' anymore offensive to their delicate sensibilities as a pair of shorts would be to mine ? What doesn't the same 'State' cry 'immodesty' when the same parents were to ask their children to wear skimpy dresses ? And why does this stop at the 'head-scarf' of all things....surely those 'ringlets' that the Orthodox Jews keep, the un-cut hair that the Sikh Children keep or the 'right to have your children circumsized' in accordance with one's belief, are as intrusive for the first two and quite a bit more intrusive for the last ?

Besides where does the 'right of the parent's' to raise their kids as per their belief systems end and 'its being forced upon them begins' ? Why is it that the buck always stops at the 'Muslim Headscarf' and not at a 'bikini' ? Why can't one argue that whilst taking your children to the beach whilst wearing a 'skimpy swimsuit' one is teaching promiscuity ? Why is it that one always argues that just because you've taught your kid that 'covering your head' with a scarf is a good thing, that you're imposing your beliefs or them or are violating their fundamental rights whereas one doesn't argue that asking your kid to wear clothes to begin with is a ludicrous, unnatural thing to begin with, as a Nudist would argue ? What is that threshold on which a said amount of 'cloth' is alright but cross it and it becomes 'transgression against the highest human ideals of freedom and liberty' ? And what kind of a precedent does this really set ?

When legislating, of course, the general values of the state will be taken into account. For Turkey, this is the ideal of freedom and secularism. For Pakistan, this may be Islamism being an "islamic republic". Secularism and Islamism, theoretically, clash very little but this is a different debate.

And who gives the 'State' the right to speculate on what is or isn't going through the mind of the said person ? Ans: The voters. The state is there to speculate what is right and what is wrong and it is the representative of the majority. For example, theft is a "wrong action". However, for thieves, it may be perceived as a necessary or right action. The values of theft may go against the basic values of "equity" of a state and be made illegal. Similarly:
'Why is that that right doesn't extend the other way around ?' Why is it that 'peer-pressure' to give up the hijab, to go from a said dress to another, a said hair-cut to another etc., not considered equally intrusive and hence socially unacceptable ? Why is that such exceptions are made in the case of the 'Headscarf' and the 'Headscarf' alone ?

And besides your assertion that 'its the voters who decide that' raises another question : Where does the democratic right of the People to set standards of propriety transgress the same 'freedom of choice' that the society proclaims as fundamental to their polity ? If it starts at the 'headscarf' then where does it end ? What kind of a precedent does it set for the future ?



Throughout this debate, not once have I blamed "Islam" for this headscarf issue because I know very well Islam neither mandates nor advises any such thing as headscarf, hijab or veil.

The debate is about the "islamic culture", or Islam as it is generally practiced or perceived as "should be practiced" by majority of Muslims. More accurately, you can say we are debating whether "Arab cultural imperialism in the garb of Islam" should be assimilated/allowed by other cultures or not, especially by a secular society like Turkey and Europe.

I am at a short of time and will reply to the rest of your post as I get the opportunity.

If there was a legislation saying that anyone who doesn't wear a headscarf will be penalized...I'd call that imperialism and I'd appose that vociferously as well. If, however, the export of the idea that the 'headscarf' is a good thing or it looks good on you, is 'imperialism' then what would one call all the 'suits and ties', the 'shirts and pants', the 'p-caps and t-shirts' as ?
 
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Western values will obviously be rated higher because they have actually made Europe and West into the developed and civilized society as they are now, as opposed to eastern values (which values?) which have failed to do so for the most part.

Those who adopted superior western values such as Turkey have progressed more than the rest of the Islamic world, for example. This proves Western basic values, as outlined by Ebenstein and Fogelman, are far superior to Eastern values. They are at least superior to the values, morals and ideals practiced in Islamic countries.

I think Turkey till the last century was a sick man of Europe Survived only on IMF bailouts, the total IMF lending was around 26 Billion USD and still to payback 1.6 B-$Turkey started to progress both in economy and science& tech under the Islamic leaning AKP rule of Erdogan isn't it ?. How would you rate Malaysia ? on most of the economic indicators whether its better or at par with Turkey .
 
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If you agree that terrorism is not nice, then condemn all terrorist groups or condemn none if you support terrorism. Don't be partial in your judgment.


I do denounce the acts of terrorism. Period.
Where did you smell the partiality factor in my response.
Look what Brevik did to Norway...
He became anti muslim based on what he saw was happening in his country....
And i was there in Oslo at that time....its first for Norway...

I think Turkey till the last century was a sick man of Europe Survived only on IMF bailouts, the total IMF lending was around 26 Billion USD and still to payback 1.6 B-$Turkey started to progress both in economy and science& tech under the Islamic leaning AKP rule of Erdogan isn't it ?. How would you rate Malaysia ? on most of the economic indicators whether its better or at par with Turkey .

Turkey never was, never is , and never will be a european state.
Unless it solves outstanding border issues with Greece - EEU member who can veto - on Cyprus.....
 
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I am all about that but unfourtanately religions have a big, huge, gargantuan problems with what you wrote...

Not religion but 'religious extremism' ! Any 'ism' whether its Islamism, Nationalism, Secularism or Communism when taken to the extreme i.e becomes totalitarian, that problem manifests itself ! Fascism began with two 'isms' - Socialism and Nationalism and it metamorphed into something completely unpalatable till we had to fight it to stop it. Similarly the Kingdom of Andalusia began as 'Islamism' with its Laws and Caliphate and gave to the wold 300 years of unprecedented intellectual development !
 
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I think Turkey till the last century was a sick man of Europe Survived only on IMF bailouts, the total IMF lending was around 26 Billion USD and still to payback 1.6 B-$Turkey started to progress both in economy and science& tech under the Islamic leaning AKP rule of Erdogan isn't it ?. How would you rate Malaysia ? on most of the economic indicators whether its better or at par with Turkey .

When thinking that AKP used Kemal Dervish, a secularist world renown economist plan is kinda explains your questions... Privitazation is western value so yea... Islamists who fallowed secularists and western plans is responsible for Turkey's current stuation but to add that Turkey now faces with +100 billion trade deficit every year and inflation of %9-10 is also consequences of the same Islamists...
 
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Conservative families raise conservative childeren, i've come to accept that. Problem arises when conservatives run the government and want to raise a "conservative generation" there is no islam's so-called tolerance in this. You can't shape people's minds as they were some sculptures.

Education system serves to make the childeren all alike, according to one ideology's ideals. Be it religious or nationalistic, doesn't matter.

They have another word for it 'indoctrination' ! Education is anything but making everyone alike; at best, it allows everyone to express themselves and at worst it churns out 'Hitler Youth' ! What you're suggesting lies somewhere in between, though with an eerie disposition for the latter, at least intellectually.

When thinking that AKP used Kemal Dervish, a secularist world renown economist plan is kinda explains your questions... Privitazation is western value so yea... Islamists who fallowed secularists and western plans is responsible for Turkey's current stuation but to add that Turkey now faces with +100 billion trade deficit every year and inflation of %9-10 is also consequences of the same Islamists...

Ever heard of 'Mushariqa' ? Its Venture Capitalism with an tinge of ethics ! So I would dispute the bold part.
 
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Not religion but 'religious extremism' ! Any 'ism' whether its Islamism, Nationalism, Secularism or Communism when taken to the extreme i.e becomes totalitarian, that problem manifests itself ! Fascism began with two 'isms' - Socialism and Nationalism and it metamorphed into something completely unpalatable till we had to fight it to stop it. Similarly the Kingdom of Andalusia began as 'Islamism' with its Laws and Caliphate and gave to the wold 300 years of unprecedented intellectual development !

If you are going with that argument religion loses its ''holy'' statue... According to books, religion is god made system that is perfect and someone who does everything in quran should be able to reach the highest state of hmanity but they cannot...

When you compere religion with communism, secularism or capitalism and some of them have end up better than religion even in one concept that means book is lie... as a muslim you shouldn't go there beucase like I said, even one mistake or one weakness will deselve its holy statues. It cannot be the gods book if there are mistakes.

They have another word for it 'indoctrination' ! Education is anything but making everyone alike; at best, it allows everyone to express themselves and at worst it churns out 'Hitler Youth' ! What you're suggesting lies somewhere in between, though with an eerie disposition for the latter, at least intellectually.



Ever heard of 'Mushariqa' ? Its Venture Capitalism with an tinge of ethics ! So I would dispute the bold part.

Musjariqa? What is hat couldn't find anything about it on net. Can yu please explain it to me?
 
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If you agree that terrorism is not nice, then condemn all terrorist groups or condemn none if you support terrorism. Don't be partial in your judgment.


I do denounce the acts of terrorism. Period.
Where did you smell the partiality factor in my response.
Look what Brevik did to Norway...
He became anti muslim based on what he saw was happening in his country....
And i was there in Oslo at that time....its first for Norway...



Turkey never was, never is , and never will be a european state.
Unless it solves outstanding border issues with Greece - EEU member who can veto - on Cyprus.....

My post was not related to Turkey's EU accession process .
 
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Banning headscarf is dumb . Niqab or Burka is understandable but headscarf ? Doesn't make sense .

I do hope that Turkey remains secular though .

It is banned by none other than A muslim state....so lets let them fight it within their sharia laws if any....why would world cry over it?
 
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