Another ‘blasphemy’ case

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Which country today is closest to 100% pure Islamic state? is it Saudi Arabia? Iran? Libya? Any of the gulf/arab country?

None...

but we will have one within less than five years time God willing...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

As I said in my post that you have quoted, that it is always the implementation of democracy that would be at fault and not democracy itself.

But in the end, whatever system you incorporate, it is the people who would be the driving force and if they have low morals, then no system would work. Democracy is the most accurate representation of the state of mind of the general populace. If people are not contributing positively, then they themselves are responsible for it and not a single person or a single institution.

Democracy, hence, is the best form of governance in this modern world. The flaws again, are to be attributed to the way (or how effectively) it is implemented.

I actually agree with you... except the point about democracy being the best (actually it is the best in application AT PRESENT dont doubt that)... but there are better alternatives for us... which presently remain in books...

 

[shuntmaster]

None...

but we will have one within less than five years time God willing...

Which country are you alluding to? Pakistan?
Was Afghanistan under taliban control a pure Islamic state?
Come on friend. Give us some idea about what you feel a pure Islamic state is.
Most Pakistani members want a Islamic state, but no one defines what is a islamic state.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

This is wrong assertion.

When we talk about implementing a system which can pave way for progress, we need to figure out its level of compatibility with the fundamental beliefs of a society. Only than a system can work.

If you want to base the fundamentals of a nation on a set of beliefs, then I am afraid the future of the nation can never be good. There is a very good reason to keep religion out of governance, and this is that very reason. No system of governance should ever be based upon beliefs, because beliefs incites extreme sentiments and suppresses rationality. Beliefs are good for personal use, not for governance.

Shariah based system can work wonders for a society which strongly adheres to Islamic beliefs. However, its implementation should be impartial and 100% according to teachings of Islam.

Can you list the basic requirements for Shariah?

 

[Ahmad]

None...

but we will have one within less than five years time God willing...

we didnt have it in this many years, how come now in 5?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Will Non-muslims in a pure Islamic state live as Dhimmis?
Will there be be difference between people of the Book ( Christians, Jews) and others (Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists)??

U are asking so many questions... well I brought it upon myself... lol...

I ll do my best to answer as much as I can... so bear with me...

There will be absolutely no difference between the citizens of the Islamic state... All jobs and posts are open to Muslims as well as non Muslims (except those of leadership and higher judges obviously... because certain judges have the power of removing the Caliph... so only Muslims will be allowed to take those seats)...

Non Muslims pay a single tax the Jizya which is lower than what Muslims pay...

Non Muslims have their life, dignity, livelihood, property protected by Muslims...

Muhammad saw our master said... (translation below)

Whoever harms a tax paying non Muslim citizen... its as if he has harmed Muhammad saw himself!!!!

I forgot to add... non Muslims will be allowed into the military also... Our history depicts that the coptic christians were part of Salahuddin's Army against the crusaders!!!!

The Crusaders actually got shocked when they captured some prisoners who were wearing crosses around their necks...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

we didnt have it in this many years, how come now in 5?

because tremendous amount of work is being put into the idea... people have given their lives for the cause... One of the scholars who first started working on the idea in the 1950s was brutally tortured by the goons of Saddam Hussain and as a result of that torture passed away... all those years Muslims were stuck in ideas like Arab Nationalism, Socialism, Capitalism... today Muslims are reviving through out the world... Once we have the support of the influentials in the Muslim world... we will deliver this change inshaAllah

The internet has certainly helped but most work happens behind the scenes...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

If you want to base the fundamentals of a nation on a set of beliefs, then I am afraid the future of the nation can never be good. There is a very good reason to keep religion out of governance, and this is that very reason. No system of governance should ever be based upon beliefs, because beliefs incites extreme sentiments and suppresses rationality. Beliefs are good for personal use, not for governance.



Can you list the basic requirements for Shariah?

Totally disagree my friend...

Capitalism, Communism are all beliefs and ideas... The ideological states have the most weight in the world... Look at how powerful USSR and USA have been... It was because they had extreme sentiments (and at times they suppressed rationality also)... We have no problem with rationality... but extremism in purity of ideas and dedication to a good cause is actually a good thing...

As for requirements of Shariah...

I have already requested you to study the Quran with translation...

That goes for you also shuntmaster my friend... A lot of your questions get answered there... feel free to pose questions about it on the forum... i m sure myself or any other Muslim would be willing to help you if we can...

 

[GentlemanObserver]

Indeed, if you suppress voice that is not democracy. But freedom to express yourself should not be taken for granted. For example, by mere expressing yourself, you may be inciting violence, and in that case the more bigger right of people (suppression of violence) will prevail over the lesser right (expression of opinion).

Well consider it empirically:
Islam is Practised by 95% of the 170 million people living in Pakistan..

Christians make up approx. 2,800,000 people
Hindus make up approx approx. 2,443,614 people
Bahá'ís are around 79,000 [18]
Sikhs are estimated at 20,000 [7]
Zoroastrian/Parsis are within the range of 20,000

So you see it is the larger populace that his the "wider" say... Now consider the minorities are "guaranteed" their constitutional and fundamental human rights, it is a fair argument to say their voice is also heard and respected.

But consider the mere maths of it... It's a very delicate balancing act... And denying that it is anything but a "balancing" act is a LIE and fallacy.

---
If you consider the American Oath and one particular line:
Liberty and justice for all

Ask someone what liberty means and they will respond: Freedom... No, liberty has a much deeper meaning one that goes beyond mere notion for freedom...

Freedom is, at best, the license to do what you want as long as you do not hurt others. At worst, it is license to do what you want without considering the rights of others.

Freedom exercised by the masses, without good character, will result in anarchy or tyranny.

Freedom without responsibility is dangerous, costly, and ultimately restrictive on individuals and society. In terms of ability to act freely without consequences, Somalia, with little working internal government, is a ‘freer’ society than the United States.

The ramifications of freedom without character are disorder, chaos, injustice, and poverty.


Societies with a small notion of Liberty are ultimately better off than societies based only on ideas of freedom. Liberty is the opportunity to make a choice to assume responsibility and accept the consequences.

The fruit of liberty are order, justice, wisdom, and prosperity. When people’s actions are determined and tempered by the obligation to assume responsibility and accept the consequences (be they good or bad), those actions will ultimately work towards the advancement and progress of all, rather than the profit of one at the expense of many.

Liberty is not won easily, and is not preserved complacently. In fact, liberty is under assault everyday by those who make others pay for their actions.

Today, do you see people accepting responsibility, or are they blaming somebody else? Are they – or you – looking for a bailout? Are they looking for someone else to take over and pay for their actions? Or did they step up to the plate and say, “I’m responsible, the buck stops here”?

Thomas Jefferson said, “Educate and inform the whole mass of people. They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our Liberty.”

So you see sir/madam.... There is a massive difference in the "freedom" to do what you want to do and how you want to do and having the "liberty" to play a responsible part in the building of your communities and your nation.

What Pakistan needs is Liberty for all... Not "Fundamental Freedoms"...

 

[shuntmaster]

U are asking so many questions... well I brought it upon myself... lol...

I ll do my best to answer as much as I can... so bear with me...

Thanks for being patient with me, but my curiosity is genuine and not to antagonize anyone. Everyone speaks of islamic state and implementation of sharia, without defining clearly what it is.

There will be absolutely no difference between the citizens of the Islamic state... All jobs and posts are open to Muslims as well as non Muslims (except those of leadership and higher judges obviously... because certain judges have the power of removing the Caliph... so only Muslims will be allowed to take those seats)...

Does this mean that the Caliph will be decided by senior judge/Quazi?
How are Quazi's selected?

Non Muslims pay a single tax the Jizya which is lower than what Muslims pay...

Will Zakat and Jaziya replace income tax in an islamic state? What happens to other taxes and duties, will they be abolished?

Non Muslims have their life, dignity, livelihood, property protected by Muslims...

Does it mean non-muslims have no right to defend their dignity, life, livelihood and property? Will they be permitted to bear arms like muslims?

Muhammad saw our master said... (translation below)

Whoever harms a tax paying non Muslim citizen... its as if he has harmed Muhammad saw himself!!!!

Is a non-tax/Jazia paying citizen fair game? What is the punishment for not paying Zakat/Jaziya?

 

[Ahmad]

because tremendous amount of work is being put into the idea... people have given their lives for the cause... One of the scholars who first started working on the idea in the 1950s was brutally tortured by the goons of Saddam Hussain and as a result of that torture passed away... all those years Muslims were stuck in ideas like Arab Nationalism, Socialism, Capitalism... today Muslims are reviving through out the world... Once we have the support of the influentials in the Muslim world... we will deliver this change inshaAllah

The internet has certainly helped but most work happens behind the scenes...

can you give more details of it as it was very general answer? what do you think about the masses and practicality of this idea?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Saf and TFaz... I ll resume the discussion later... I need a cigarette now I ve written so much... LOL

 

[shuntmaster]

Saf and TFaz... I ll resume the discussion later... I need a cigarette now I ve written so much... LOL

Isn't cigarette smoking (or taking any intoxicant) haram in Islam?

 

[GentlemanObserver]

Isn't cigarette smoking (or taking any intoxicant) haram in Islam?

Please don't get personal it will lead to flames... Lets just keep it about the topic and not about an individual members practices, it's very rude and also AGAINST the rules of the house.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Capitalism, Communism are all beliefs and ideas... The ideological states have the most weight in the world... Look at how powerful USSR and USA have been... It was because they had extreme sentiments (and at times they suppressed rationality also)...

How did they had extreme sentiments? What you are favoring (and I think that is Shariah) is a closed system from the very beginning. Democracy is flexible, the laws can be changed/formulated based on the will of the people. The system should be implemented on the society and the society, in turn, must have the power to reform/change/formulate the system. Not a system which once defined becomes unchangeable - that surely is then extremism and irrational extremism rather.

We have no problem with rationality... but extremism in purity of ideas and dedication to a good cause is actually a good thing...

Yes, it is, but the cause you are after may not be proper for everyone or may not be harmonious with the thinking of others. And if your cause is proper, then you should never have the necessity of having people abide by it forcibly, as is the basic requirement of Shariah.