Ancient Pakistan - 500Bc

[PlanetWarrior]

I take it that is Tornado. Spanked ? That will be the day. Mister the only reason you managed to get anywhere was you had dozens of your monkeys jumping on my back. I should have just focussed on you but I got sucked into rest of Hindutwa fanatics. On top of that you hid behind the Mods.

Like a cry baby you reported me all the time. On a fair one to one against me I will rip another a*sShole for you and you won't be able to tick on on the male/female box because won't belong to either.

Now get of this thread. You want to take me on go open another thread. Go open one in South Asia forum. I am going to get some of our lads into this so they can balance the Hindutwa Army you have supporting you.

and the lay people I can easily win over to my argument. I already opened many minds. You see it takes time. Even in the short time I was there I made impact although too much of my time was wasted fending of Hindu internet warriors.

Tornado I have lived and travelled all over I wherever I went by the time I finished I changed most people's perception of Pakistan. That is why you and your Hindu friends went berserk after me. Even on this forum your shatting and this can be seen in this forum.

MODS can you please get rid of the garbage on this thread. I don't have time to waste on you. Furthermore can somebody block him from here.

Tornado I am going to also nurture a team here.

and Tornado don't kid yourself into thinking you won anything over me. I faced decades of Pakistan government failure at having got our history sorted out. On top of this decafe of war on terror has done lot of damage to Pakistan's reputation in the world especially in the west. On top of that you Indian's hide under Westerners skirts and egg them on.


I took that on alone myself. I never wavered and I know I made a impact on most. The reality is truth is on our side. All we have to do now is cut through the smoke screen you Hindu's have created. That we will. I am going to get at least 10 boys from here upto speed with our, yes Pakistani history and then we are going to start spreading the word.

It will take time and I know I am on the right path when I see your Hindu brigade going crazy Ha Ha ha

You really need to maintain your composure when responding to criticism. You posted some good stuff (which I don't agree with) but ended up trolling your own thread. And wtf is "Tornado" ?

 

[anonymus]

I take it that is Tornado. Spanked ?That will be the day.

Wrong Answer . Try again.

Mister the only reason you managed to get anywhere was you had dozens of your monkeys jumping on my back. I should have just focussed on you but I got sucked into rest of Hindutwa fanatics. On top of that you hid behind the Mods.

There is not a single poster supporting that guy in most of your third rate threads; and that forum is a Western forum with zero Indian moderator. You were banned for attacking Indians on that forum with your favorite "poverty posts" in Chamber.

You are just acting like a crybaby because you simply could not refute mountain of evidence posted from historians who coined the term India and described it in detail.

You would not have run away from that forum and opened thread after thread ,even though you were proved wrong in preceding thread, if you could have justified your PoV.

Like a cry baby you reported me all the time. On a fair one to one against me I will rip another a*sShole for you and you won't be able to tick on on the male/female box because won't belong to either.

Now get of this thread. You want to take me on go open another thread. Go open one in South Asia forum. I am going to get some of our lads into this so they can balance the Hindutwa Army you have supporting you.

and the lay people I can easily win over to my argument. I already opened many minds. You see it takes time. Even in the short time I was there I made impact although too much of my time was wasted fending of Hindu internet warriors.

Tornado I have lived and travelled all over I wherever I went by the time I finished I changed most people's perception of Pakistan. That is why you and your Hindu friends went berserk after me. Even on this forum your shatting and this can be seen in this forum.

MODS can you please get rid of the garbage on this thread. I don't have time to waste on you. Furthermore can somebody block him from here.

Tornado I am going to also nurture a team here.

and Tornado don't kid yourself into thinking you won anything over me. I faced decades of Pakistan government failure at having got our history sorted out. On top of this decafe of war on terror has done lot of damage to Pakistan's reputation in the world especially in the west. On top of that you Indian's hide under Westerners skirts and egg them on.


I took that on alone myself. I never wavered and I know I made a impact on most. The reality is truth is on our side. All we have to do now is cut through the smoke screen you Hindu's have created. That we will. I am going to get at least 10 boys from here upto speed with our, yes Pakistani history and then we are going to start spreading the word.

It will take time and I know I am on the right path when I see your Hindu brigade going crazy Ha Ha ha

As for creating your ideological slave army, best of luck with that.This is not the first time a Pakistani has tried to lay claim on the name and history of India, and would not be the last time. Even your beloved Jinnah tried and failed, and people who would come after you would fail again.

Unless some loon in Indian government change India's name to something else, Indian history and culture would solely be associated with India, both in popular and academic discourse. You could cry till kingdom comes.

As I have stated earlier, no one gives a damn about whether Pakistanis believe that Ancient India was Pakistan or not. Actually Indian do not need to even defend this kind of fakery. You have to prove Herodotus,Megesthanes, Plutarch, Arrian, and Strabo wrong; people who coined the term India.


I have only posted on this thread to lay bare your intellectual dishonesty for all those who are interested to see.I would not even pester you with further posts as I have no problem with Pakistanis believing in fairytales to their own detriment.Your side does not have facts on its side, therefore they will always lose irrespective of number.I wish you best of luck in your endeavor to create a propaganda army.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

anonymous - if what your saying has any truth why are you here than - get lost. I am not saying the moderation was not fair. What happened is the army of Indian's kept making subtle but disparaging comments about Pakistan. The problem was no single Indian alone did anything sufficient to come within the 'radar' of the Mods. but as I was the only one there to give the Pakistani perspective the aggregate of the tangles I had led to me going into the attention of the Mods. If you took a step back you could see the Indian's were operating like a wolf pack tearing away at me bit by bit and when I reacted I got into trouble.

Trust me I will be back at that forum and this time I will also come with more than myself.

* To all Pakistani's here: Let me know if your interested in taking part as contributors to the new forum that I hope the admin. sets up.

Ps. To Indian's - Just to clarify this we DO NOT WANT YOUR name. I have no idea where that came from. We just want to our history. Label's are not what we are concerned about. You can have the brand name. We have the product. We intend to celebrate the product we have.

Just look at the reaction this thread has drawn. Some vulgar posts have been deleted by Mods. What crime haveI commited. All I was talking about was history of my country and just have a look at the reaction this has drawn?

The moment you mention 'Pakistan' and 'Ancient' the Indian's for some reason into paroxysms.

This makes me more determined because I know I must be doing something right otherwise why am I getting the privilage of this 'extra' Indian attention. I am now going to ask for bright, well read lads to join me. I have already seen some good lads here.

I love it .....

And annonymous whoever the hell you are spare your 'good luck' for your starving countrymen so that they can grab a bite to eat tonight.

 

[Dubious]

* For the purposes of this thread take the meaning of 'Pakistan' to be coterminous with the Indus basin.

So if there were a time machine and you could go back to about 500BC the first surprise would be that most of our Pakistan was in the Persian Achaemenid Empire. The mighty Persian Empire stretched from Greece to Pakistan, from Egypt to Kazakistan. It was divided into Satrapies like we have provinces in Pakistan today.

Have a look at the map below. You will notice the Satrapy of Hindush [India] is modern day Sindh, Satrapy of Gedrosia modern day Balochistan, Satrapy of Sattagydia modern day Punjab and parts of Arachosia and Gandhara modern day Khyber Pak province. Is that not interesting?

I will be doing series of historical articles but I thought I would just give a taster of what I intend to do. I do not want the typical 'but Pakistan created in 1947' childish rubbish I get so often. First and foremost do please read the first line of this post. It makes everything quite explicable but just in case any of you fail to understand what that caveat means let me explain in detail.

When we go back in time we run into many problems. For a start words or names that mean one thing today will mean something else then. If you go back 5,000 years ago there was nothing. No nation, no landmass had name yet. We use words or names invented today to apply backwards. Example we say 'Harappan civilization'. You realise that name did not exist 5,000 years ago.

Drift (linguistics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sometimes even if a name existed it might have meant something else. A fine example is 'Asia' That name was coined by Greeks for what is now the Aegean coast of Turkey. Soon it came to mean all of modern Turkey [ Anatolia ] then it came to mean our part of the world. Then in time it drifted even more east and it came to mean even include Japan.

Etymology of Asia : List of continent name etymologies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So a name that meant the Aegean coast of Anatolia today is even used for Japan. This sort of change of meaning is called 'linquistic drift' and is quite common.Thus in 500BC when Persians said 'Hindush' it meant Sindh. It had no religious or other meaning that you think of today. In history you have to contextulize words or names. You can't hear a 500Bc name and then attach the modern meaning as used today. You must translate according to context that is the time, 500BC.

Anyway here it is.

Sindh - Hindush [India]
Punjab - Sattagydia
Balochistan - Gedrosia
Khyber Pak- Arachosia/Gandhara

* Of course 2,500 years ago they din't match the precise modern boundaries of Pakistan provinces but they are pretty close.

* The English translations are given. There is a table underneath the map where you will find in parenthesis the Persian names for the Satrapies.

Modern Provincial map of Pakistan.

* The Persian Empire included modern Greece, part of Bulgaria, Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Isreal, Palestine, Egypt, Libyia, Kuwait, part of Saudia Arabia ,Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Chechnia, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, parts of Kazakistan, Kirghiztan, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Interesting information....

Thanks for the information...I had a vague idea and of course this geography bit at the bottom was what I knew...Just didnt link the Persians to the geography

Yes, indeed I am glad you brought that up. There is always geographic forces informing history. Imagine if you spilled water on the floor. Ever observed how it spreads out? It tends to follow path of least resistance. The limits of where it spreads upto where it's gravitational impetus runs out which of course is determined by the floor uneveness.

In the same way I want you to look at the satelite image of the Indus Basin that Pakistan occupies. You will notice we are part of South Asia. However what most people do not appreciate is the Indus Basin is a sub unit of the bigger whole. Think of Scandanavia and Europe. The former is a geographic sub unit of the latter.

1. Sky Blue Line.

First look at the sky blue line at the bottom of the map on right side of Sindh. That is Rann of Kutch. A marshy, salty plain which is barren and represents a barrier to movement. Do go to Google Earth and get close up and you will see what I mean. This is a natural divider.

2. Green Line.

This runs from Rann of Kutch up toward Punjab. It marks the approx centre of the Thar Desert. Thar Desert effectively divides Sindh and South Punjab from most of India. You have almost 200 miles of sand, semi to arid desert that represents a major barrier between Pakistan and India. This is visible on the map as the colour is sandy. The sandy colour of Thar separates the fertile Indus basin from most of India.

3. The Broken Yellow Line.

Only at the top running through old Punjab where I marked broken yellow line is there a 'bridge' between Ganges/Peninsular India and the Indus Basin. It will be of no surprise then that this is the only part that had to be partitioned in 1947 as it is the only 'bridge' connecting Indus and Ganges Basins.

Anyway what I am saying is between 1 and 2 that is Sky Blue line and Green line most of Indus Basin is distinct and separated by salt marsh or deserts. Even the old Persian Empire chose that as approx. limit because of course there was dry desert there. So the boundary is not accidental but geography is defining it. As you will see later this line has come up frequently in history as a physical divider between Indus Basin and the Ganges Basin/Peninsular India

At any rate look at the map and everything I am saying is visible to the eye. By the way this dividing line has been called the Kathiwar-Gurdaspur Salient.

The blue lines are River Indus and the smaller Punjab rivers. These are significant in history as most of the Indus Basin would have been desert in history. Only since British started massive irrigation projects in 1890s onwards that Pakistan has continued by building dams and canals that we have the farms and green fertile strip running north south. In history only the very narrow strip adjacent to the rivers would have supported most of the population. Rest would have been desert with tiny population.

From the map it is clear that the Indus Basin is distinct from Ganges Basin. It is no wonder therefore that Pakistan border is proximate to the Kathiwar-Gurdaspur Salient as marked by me in coloured lines. The salty Rann of Kutch and the Thar Desert mark it out as barrier and most empires from the west used that as their boundary. You will ses this this pattern repeated in history.

Also do look at the Persian Empire Map. People say Pakistan was created. Out of curiousity how many other countries do you see there? Afghanistan? Turkey? Jordan? Uzbekistan? Bulgaria. Do yousee my point? All countries are creations.

Those of you who are serious about reading our history should read up on Prof. Hasan Ahmad Dani who is a world class archaeologist and has written many books on Pakistan.

Ahmad Hassan Dani Interview Contents

Ahmad Hasan Dani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Interesting information....

Thanks for the information...I had a vague idea and of course this geography bit at the bottom was what I knew...Just didnt link the Persians to the geography

No need to thank me. It is Pakistani like you that I am depending. Once we get the history forum we build a quality resource and then I need each of you to spread the word around. Spread your knowledge of our history. The indian's have for too long been helping themselves to the fruit of our land.

 

[DesiGuy]

No need to thank me. It is Pakistani like you that I am depending. Once we get the history forum we build a quality resource and then I need each of you to spread the word around. Spread your knowledge of our history. The indian's have for too long been helping themselves to the fruit of our land.

@MBI Munshi : be careful...you got a little competition now..!

 

[Aepsilons]

Excellent piece of writing , @Atanz

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Etymology of Asia: The Origin of the Names of the Continents

"Asia derives from the Ancient Greek “Ἀσία”, which was used as early as 440 B.C. by Herodotus in his Histories. However, it is likely that the name was in use long before then, though not referring to a whole continent, but rather originally just the name for the land on the east bank of the Aegean Sea, and then later the Anatolia (part of modern Turkey).

 

[DRaisinHerald]

Yea but Indo-Aryans are indigenous to the IVC while Dravidian negroid Australiods like you are not

Bro, you are disgustingly racist.

 

[A1Kaid]

Another attempt by a frustrated Pakistani to justify creation of Pakistan.

All your ifs and butts will be completely shattered when its pointed out that assuming facts of 5000 yr old by showing facts of tomorrow is utter nonsense. For knowing ancient truths our research and analysis shud also be more scientific.

A very in detailed explanation of all the theories and counter theories.

Indo-Aryan migration theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Simply shows how theories were made by studying an alien culture for merely 3 years by the British after discovery of Harappa sites.

Today, many theories have popped up and also the counter theories.

Point remains the same. Civilizations and migrations are integral part of human DNA. Associating one type against other is mere foolishness.

Pakistanis claim to be different from Indians coz they were subject to maximum migrations invasions mix-ups as part of sub continent. But so were the North Indians to some extent.

So are e really different?

And the theory of Indus people and Gangetic people been divided by a permanent barrier is laughable. C'mon, dint lose sanity just for some justification of a half century old country. Civilizations are much greater than some country's existence.

He is right though, much of India's population and people are descendants of Ganges river civilization. You don't have anything to do with Indus Valley civilization as your ethnic groups are not descendants of IVC but Ganges civilization people.

"For several hundred years after the decline of the Indus civilization life in Indian was structured around small villages. A second period of urbanization, known as the Ganges civilization, began about 1500 BC.

Shortly before that time a nomadic people, the Aryans, entered India from the Iranian region. Being cattle herders, the Aryans learned to make use of the fertile river valleys from the remaining Harappans and settled down, either mingling with and absorbing the Harappans or making them subservient to them.

The arrival of the Aryans coincided with the introduction of Vedic, an early form of Sanskrit, the first Indian script. The earliest examples of Indian literature, the Vedas, originate from this time, and the Ganges civilization is therefore often called the Vedic period."

...

Towards the end of the Ganges civilization period the clans had settled permanently and staked out their territories. Clan identification was replaced by identification with a territory, and the major clans developed into kingdoms. [How central and southern India got populated]

Science, civilization and society

 

[haviZsultan]

* For the purposes of this thread take the meaning of 'Pakistan' to be coterminous with the Indus basin.

So if there were a time machine and you could go back to about 500BC the first surprise would be that most of our Pakistan was in the Persian Achaemenid Empire. The mighty Persian Empire stretched from Greece to Pakistan, from Egypt to Kazakistan. It was divided into Satrapies like we have provinces in Pakistan today.

Have a look at the map below. You will notice the Satrapy of Hindush [India] is modern day Sindh, Satrapy of Gedrosia modern day Balochistan, Satrapy of Sattagydia modern day Punjab and parts of Arachosia and Gandhara modern day Khyber Pak province. Is that not interesting?

I will be doing series of historical articles but I thought I would just give a taster of what I intend to do. I do not want the typical 'but Pakistan created in 1947' childish rubbish I get so often. First and foremost do please read the first line of this post. It makes everything quite explicable but just in case any of you fail to understand what that caveat means let me explain in detail.

When we go back in time we run into many problems. For a start words or names that mean one thing today will mean something else then. If you go back 5,000 years ago there was nothing. No nation, no landmass had name yet. We use words or names invented today to apply backwards. Example we say 'Harappan civilization'. You realise that name did not exist 5,000 years ago.

Drift (linguistics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sometimes even if a name existed it might have meant something else. A fine example is 'Asia' That name was coined by Greeks for what is now the Aegean coast of Turkey. Soon it came to mean all of modern Turkey [ Anatolia ] then it came to mean our part of the world. Then in time it drifted even more east and it came to mean even include Japan.

Etymology of Asia : List of continent name etymologies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So a name that meant the Aegean coast of Anatolia today is even used for Japan. This sort of change of meaning is called 'linquistic drift' and is quite common.Thus in 500BC when Persians said 'Hindush' it meant Sindh. It had no religious or other meaning that you think of today. In history you have to contextulize words or names. You can't hear a 500Bc name and then attach the modern meaning as used today. You must translate according to context that is the time, 500BC.

Anyway here it is.

Sindh - Hindush [India]
Punjab - Sattagydia
Balochistan - Gedrosia
Khyber Pak- Arachosia/Gandhara

* Of course 2,500 years ago they din't match the precise modern boundaries of Pakistan provinces but they are pretty close.

* The English translations are given. There is a table underneath the map where you will find in parenthesis the Persian names for the Satrapies.

Modern Provincial map of Pakistan.

* The Persian Empire included modern Greece, part of Bulgaria, Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Isreal, Palestine, Egypt, Libyia, Kuwait, part of Saudia Arabia ,Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Chechnia, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, parts of Kazakistan, Kirghiztan, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

A strategy game, chariots of war covers this region well. Pakhtunkwa during the period was ruled by hill tribes.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

To all Pakistani.

I have wasted too much of my time with Indian's who of course go crazy at very notion of Pakistan and Ancient Pakistan. My only interest is with my fellow countrymen. In fact I have been a fool. Not only did I waste my energy on Hindutwa fanatics but in a sense I validated their position.

I should not have to get a outsiders approval over my own forefathers legacy. Who the hell are the Indians? It is my homeland and it is my business. The only people I need to discuss this is with my own brothers and sisters. I have indeed been a idiot. You don't go and talk with your neighbour about your own families affairs or need to convince them about your own families matters. You don't need and should seek their approval.

So I ask my fellow Pakistani's to begin the journey to our past. A glorious past that very few countries on EARTH can match. Forget about the British, forget about the Germans, forget about even the Turks, we were shaping and making civilization when most of the world was running around like savages.

The reason I am investing so much energy into this is we Pakistani's have to 'own' our past. If we do not own our own past and ttake pride in it the world is not going to do it for us. When we own our past we must walk with pride and tell the world. In my dealing with many people I have noticed once they even get a inkling of our glorious past they walk away impressed. Pakistan is suddenly not Somalia, not another Third World country with problems. It is a country at par with Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Mosoptomia.

I kid you not most become all apologetic about Pakistan and then will say " Oh I wish your country the best". Or things like "all countries go through through difficult times but with a history like yours you shall prevail" or " I would love one day to visit your country with it's archeological treasures" or "It would be lovely to to take a tour along the world famous battles sites like Hydaspes [Jhelum] where Porus and Alexander fought.

To begin this change of our countries perception, we, only we Pakistani can do it. Like I said if I can get 10 Pakistani motivated towards this goal I would consider it a success. Also our history is blind. It is inclusive. It belongs to all. It matters not if you are Sunni, Shia, Wahabi, Sikh, Hindu, Christian or immigrant.

If you are Pakistani and you either through birth or choice now consider yourself as belonging to this land, in short you are Pakistani, you should take pride in this. It brings us all togather under that green and crescent flag despite what ethnic group you belong to for you are now resident of the mighty Indus Basin - Pakistan. Then your destiny is intertwined with the Indus Basin. Then you can say proudly "Je suis Pakistani".

Now before I move forward I need to start with the basics. Everything begins with a base. To write or draw you need paper. To cook you need ingredients. To build a house you need LAND. You can have the best blueprint prepared by best architects in the world, have the best builders and civil engineers in the world but your not going to even lay one brick down without LAND. Land is a factor in everything. It plays a hand in your looks, in the food you eat, even in deciding your history. If our land had been in Central Africa we would today look differant, eat differant and have a differant history.

Probably more blood has been shed for land than anything else. Countries go to war over land. Armies fight to death to hold on to LAND. So clearly land is decisive factor in human history. Look at Saudia Arabia. Had Saudi's been not on land that had oil they still would be riding camels instead of having Pakistani's and others doing work for them. So in short let us agree most peoples are not going to go anywhere without LAND. Ask the Palestinians about that and they will tell you.

So before we look at our history we need to look at our land and see what is is exactly about it that makes us. We need to look at our geography. I also happen to have deep interest in geography because there is alsways synergy between land, people and history. The land we are on is in geograhic terms described as the Indus Basin. Political units and geograhic units are not by definition the same always. Anyway do please read my thread on 'Indus Basin' and it's geography because that is the canvas or paper that our history is drawn on. If you understand our geography properly it will help in explaining so many things as to who we are, how we got here and where our future is.

A strategy game, chariots of war covers this region well. Pakhtunkwa during the period was ruled by hill tribes.

Yes. Indeed your right.

 

[kaku1]

Excellent piece of writing , @Atanz

Actually there is no one in now whole South Asia who is directly connected IVC and Caucasian. Caucasian invaded the IVC, defeated them, expanded further in India.

But actually there is no race now exist which directly connected to IVC or to Caucasian. In 4000 years of inter racial sex all those races are lost.

Now, one cant say India is offspring of Caucasian and Pakistan is of IVC. Actually the whole South Asia including Bangladesh is offspring of IVC and Caucasians.

Pakistan is as much as connected to Aryan theory and IVC, as much as India is.

 

[SrNair]

It is quite sad when we see the current state of affairs of Persians.
Achamenid Empire was one of thegreatest empire ever created in history .Stretching from border of China to Mediteranian sea it was once a pinnacle of human civilization.

 

[SrNair]

Excellent piece of writing , @Atanz

Well that is your opinion.But I disagree with OP in a neutral perspective.IVC was divided between India and Pakistan .Of Course at that time there was no geographical India or Pakistan.And Pakistan has more IVC sites than us.
But there was an Indian Civilization and that is all about that civilization and its existence and after thousands of years of evolution it is now known as Sanathana Dharma or Hinduism.
At that time the world population was just a few lakhs spreading in major civilization including Egyptian,Mesapatomian,IVC etc.Means at the time of IVC majority of the population in the subcontinent was around of the Indus basin.
Invasion that continued for thousands of years expanded the reach of subcontinental population.
Physical sites /graveyards of ancient civilization might be spreaded in different regions in subcobtinent.
But more than 1 billion people still follow that civilization.
Perhaps that is why some revolutionary thinkers cant convince the world about their theory.