Ancient History not Appreciated by Pakistanis?

[Flintlock]

The Arya Samaj are not Hindus. From their website.

"Arya Samaj was founded in the pre-independence era of India. The purpose was to move the Hindu Dharma away from all the fictitious beliefs, and go back to the teachings of Vedas."

This suggests that the modern day Hinduism is based on fictitious beliefs, and is not the same as the Rig Veda.

A follower of Judaism might say exactly the same things about Islam. Or a follower of Islam might say exactly the same things about Judaism. Two different relgions.

Lol...why don't you ask the members of Arya Samaj themselves whether they are Hindus?

Your problem is that you've defined hinduism in a very narrow way, and you are oversimplifying the issue by saying that those people who don't follow your definition of Hinduism aren't Hindus.

The followers of Arya Samaj believe that the Hindu Dharma has moved away from its original teachings, i.e. those in the Rigveda.
They are just one among the innumerable sects in Hinduism.

 

[roadrunner]

another lie .
You clearly said verses have been Banned

"Also Vedism was a monotheistic religion, Hinduism isn't. There are verses from the Rig Veda that prove these are part of Vedism, but Hinduism has banned these"

Look, I said Hinduism has banned what the Rig Veda made acceptable. Nothing else. Stop interpreting what I said to suit your ridiculous denial.

Mistranslation ? is this your perception??

Aghnya is an adjective in Sanskrit which means ‘one who does not deserve to be killed’
why do you add this "cow that yields milk" ????
Seems you are stuck with your own perception and cant see truth

Aghnya refers to milk cows. Milk cows are not to be killed. Barren cows are meant to be killed. The Rig Vedic people were pragmatic people, and dis not worship cows for being cows. They used cows for food, and when they were finished giving, they slaughtered them. This is clear from the Rig Veda.

"HYMN CLXIX. COWS.
1. MAY the wind blow upon our Cows with healing: may they eat herbage full of vigorous juices.

2 Like-coloured, various-hued, or single-coloured, whose names through sacrifice are known to Agni,

Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CLXIX. COWS.

I have now given you a clear reference that cows were slaughtered to please the Gods of the Rig Veda. These were barren cows of course, not the milk cows.

LOL , where does it say , it should be or could be eaten?
As I told you Aghnya is an Adjective, which means ‘one who does not deserve to be killed’
I have given you the link of Rig veda . Plz read it properly before you start forcing your biased views on anything.

Agnhya refers to milk cows in the Rig Veda.

I gave you the Link of Rigveda .. and showed you what it says about the sacredness of cow . now you show me which verse , which Page of Rigveda .. dont just quote from thin air .

I have given you one quote proving cows were slaughtered by the Rig Vedic people, who were not Hindu. I shall now give you a second quote, though I could give you many more if I wanted to..

11 Let us serve Agni with our hymns, Disposer, fed on ox and cow,
Who bears the Soma on his back.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 8: HYMN XLIII. Agni.

Proof that cows were slaughtered by the Rig Vedic people has been presented. I have presented proof that the Mahbharata BANNED the practise of cow slaughter.

"All that kill, eat and permit the killing of cows rot in hell for as many years as there are hairs on the body of the cow so slain"
"Ahimsa Paramo Dharmah"

Two different rules, and two different religions..Rig Vedism (based on the Rig Veda), and Hinduism.

For the meaning of Aghnaya, just read some of Jha's work, or the majority of scholars that agree with him.

 

[Vinod2070]

Two different rules, and two different religions..Rig Vedism (based on the Rig Veda), and Hinduism

Didn't know we had such big theological scholar here who will tell the Indians the meaning of Vedas.

Is this theory (Hinduism being different from the Vedic religion) your own great invention or you have an iota of proof from any respected theological scholar to back it up.

If Hinduism is not the Vedic religion then which religion is the Vedic religion?

If you mean that the religion as it is practiced now after all these thousands of years has certain differences with as it was practiced back then, it could well be true. But to say that it is a different religion is taking it a bit too far IMHO.

 

[Logic note]

Look, I said Hinduism has banned what the Rig Veda made acceptable. Nothing else. Stop interpreting what I said to suit your ridiculous denial.

Firstly, you have said verses have been banned . but lets accept that it was a mistake .
I have made it very clear there is nothing banned because In Hindusim the individuals freedom to find his truth is the most important .
Can you show which verses or where it has been Banned ? Please give me the authentic source .

Aghnya refers to milk cows.

Please , read Sanskrit dictionary before blabbering –
Aghnya means- “ not to be killed or violated “

Barren cows are meant to be killed. The Rig Vedic people were pragmatic people, and dis not worship cows for being cows. They used cows for food, and when they were finished giving, they slaughtered them. This is clear from the Rig Veda.

LOL , Don’t force your narrow perceptiveness .kindly show me the verse which says Cow can be eaten . I have shown you verses which says Cows are Aghnya ( not to be killed or violated )
Lets see the Verse you have quoted


“whose names through sacrifice are known to Agni,”

In Rig Veda, the word 'bali' means offering, not killing, as in Balivaishvadev which is a Vedic ritual observed to offer food to celestial gods. You seems to be unfamiliar with Vedic grammar. Even Panini has defined 'goghn' as the receiver, not the killer, of the cow.

Secondly it is true that animals were sacrificed to honour gods in the Vedic era, or even in todays time, by certain Hindu Sects this was usually the male ox, buffalo or goat. The sacrifice was a special communit event and not an act of individual consumerist eating.

Agnhya refers to milk cows in the Rig Veda.

Please it’s a request , Read Sanskrik dictionary before you blabber
Aghnya means- “ not to be killed or violated “

Proof that cows were slaughtered by the Rig Vedic people has been presented. I have presented proof that the Mahbharata BANNED the practise of cow slaughter

LOL, There is no banning in Hindusim , There can be opinions ,Ramanuja must have propogated Vegetarianism but its his view . there are millions of hindus who eat Non veg and beef .

For the meaning of Aghnaya, just read some of Jha's work, or the majority of scholars that agree with him.

LOl Jha's work has been proved Wrong. so Dont blabber By saying Majority of scholars agree with him .
Please Use Facts not biased Imagination. I am posting the facts on which Jha's Work has been disproved .

 

[Logic note]

Jha's Wrong Facts .

Some Bull
D.N. JHA (Paradox of the Indian cow, December 17) referred to a sentence from the Rig Veda which means " Indra has special liking for bulls". 'Bull' is the wrong meaning for the word vrishabh used here. Its actual meaning in this context is 'cloud'. So the actual sentence is; " Indra has special liking of clouds". In the Puranas, Indra is also known as the god of rain. - AMIT DUA, DELHI
Overkill
THE ARTICLE Paradox of the Indian cow by D.N. Jha reveals his prejudices. In Rig Veda, the word 'bali' means offering, not killing, as in Balivaishvadev which is a Vedic ritual observed to offer food to celestial gods. Jha seems to be unfamiliar with Vedic grammar. Even Panini has defined 'goghn' as the receiver, not the killer, of the cow. J.K. BENIWAL, DELHI
A perennial paradox
WHILE DIGGING into the Vedas for beef, D.N. Jha (Paradox of the Indian cow, December 17) seems to be oblivious of the intricacies of Vedic language which is an esoteric field. Wherever one finds gau in Vedas, it does not invariably stand for cow. If the author things cows were sacrificed in gomedh, will he say that pitars were sacrificed in pitrimedh?
Two thousand years from now, scholars of Jha's caliber might find the mention of hotdogs in 'ancient' books and jump to the conclusion that dog meat was the staple food of Americans and Europeans in the 20th Century. We know Bombay duck is fish. But if at some point of time, someone insists on translating Bombay duck as a kind of duck, truth will be casualty.

He has stated that various varieties of meat, particularly of cows and bulls, were a part of the cuisine of early Indians and further indicated textual evidence of beef-eating. He has said that the Sangh parivar has turned its guns at historians, instead of at Indian scholars. This is a misconception since we Aryans believe in the Mundokupnishad (3.1.6) - Satyamev Jayate nanritam - that is, only the truth triumphs and not the false hood. We are willing to argue and counter the contrary opinion on the textual evidence.
I mention the word rishibh which means bull. But it is also the name of an aushdhi (medicine). It also means surya (sun) the Sanskrit word mahisha means an animal and also denotes padarth (substance) and vighn (obstacle). The word Soma, besides an aushadhi, also means aishvara (an elevated position).
The conclusions based on literal meanings have misled the early commentators and because of this we should be open to correcting these misgivings. In the light of correct meanings, the thesis in the article will collapse under its own weight.
Jha has singled out some hymns of the Vedas whose misinterpretation has led to wrong conclusions. I have come across ample textual evidence in the Vedas where the cow has been glorified saying it needs to be worshipped. The Vedas prescribe punishment for the cow's butcher.
The entire Sukta 28 of Mandal VI (eight hymns) of Rig Veda is devoted to the glorification of the cow; 28.3 states amitrah assam vyathih n aaddharshti - enemy may not use any astra (weapon) on cows; 28.4 states n sanskritam upayanti to abhi - nobody should take them to the slaughterhouse to kill them; 28.5 states - gavah somyasaya prathamasya bhakhshah - in the first ahuti (offering) of Somras, only cow's milk is used.
The glory of the domestic cow is revealed in the Rig Veda hymn II. 35.7. It is also emphasised in Atharv Veda (AV) hymns V.28.3; IV.21.6; IV.21.7; also in the hymn XIX. 48.5 which directs us to protect all animals. Refer the book Swadhyaya Sandoh by Swami Vedanand Teerth, (pg 25-26 and 296, besides referring to the Vedic texts.
AV in its hymn I. 16.4 prescribes punishment to the killer of the cow. Vedic rishis never allowed such killings which Jha tries to prove b singling out solitary references in Taittirya Brahmana, Satapatha Brahmana. Even the name of Ajnavalk and Valmiki Ramayana is referred to fortify his claim. The entire thesis is based on misinterpretations.

 

[rrs]

The Vedic religion (Rig Vedic religion it should be) is all but extinct now. But it used to exist. These temples are Vedic temples, not Hindu temples

Denial Denial denial
Typical Islamic response.

Islamic rulers used to destroy the other cultures, religion and civilization.
This trend still continues, erase or change the damn history of Hindus

 

[Vinod2070]

Rig Veda formed the religion of the Vedic people. This isn't the same as Hinduism. Beef eating was permitted for example in the Rig Veda, cows were slaughtered, but later books forbade the killing of cows..which is why it's been banned in several Indian states today. Also Vedism was a monotheistic religion, Hinduism isn't. There are verses from the Rig Veda that prove these are part of Vedism, but Hinduism has banned these. Therefore they're not the same religion. The Gangetic people have evolved the Vedic religion into something completely unrecognizeable.

RR, due to some reason, you feel that you can authoritatively comment on other religions. You can tell the Hindus what their religion is and how its not the Vedic religion. You can even claim that Budhdhism is not an Indian religion! You claim with not a shred of proof that Bhama Gupta was probably Budhdhist, when all the links prove otherwise!

All this is to somehow convince yourself of some imaginary points based on which you have built some imaginary case in your own mind.

When the reverse happens and someone quotes you Quranic verses to support their contentions, you claim that they don't know Islam and context and so on.

Do I see a big hypocricy going on here?

 

[solid snake]

I don't understand why the history curriculum is so flawed in Pakistan. Year after year after year students are made to cram the same dull facts and dates and then recreate them on paper. What can be expected with this kind of education? It all starts with the arrival of the Brits, mentions the Mughals, but is mostly focussed on on post 1900 history.

Why aren't our students taught the rich history before that time? Our history textbooks should start from as far back as Mehrgarh (7000 BC). The Indo-Greek empire was a very interesting as well, but I had never heard of it until I stumbled upon the article on Wikipedia.

Also, why are little kids who haven't even procured proper reading/writing skills made to study history? Kids do not understand the political, social and economic factors that one must understand in order to fully grasp history. Most of the major historical topics should be introduced for the first time during high school so that the meterial is new and interesting to the students instead of the same thing they've been spweing like robots for years without appreciating it.

 

[Flintlock]

Well Katasraj is a Vedic temple from around 800 BC, not a Hindu temple.

Well, here is wikipedia for a start:

Jump to: navigation, search

Katasraj temple is a Hindu temple situated in Chakwal district of Punjab in Pakistan. Dedicated to Lord Shiva, the temple has existed since the days of Mahabharata and the Pandava brothers spent a substantial part of their exile at the site. The Pakistan Government is considering nominating the temple complex for World Heritage Site status. It also proposes to spend about Rs 20 million in three phases for the restoration of the complex.

Architecture

The Katas site houses the Satgraha, a group of seven ancient temples, remains of a Buddhist stupa, a few medieval temples, havelis and some recently constructed temples, scattered around a pond considered holy by Hindus. The temples at Katas are mostly constructed on square platforms. The elevation of the sub shrines seems to form a series of cornices with small rows of pillars, crowned by a ribbed dome.

The Ramachandra temple is situated to the east of the Hari Singh Haveli and is closed from all sides except for an entrance on the east. The double-storied structure has eight rooms of various dimensions on the ground floor and a staircase at the south leading to the first floor. The temple has two jharokas (balconies) that have been severely damaged.

The Hanuman temple is on the western extreme of a high rectangular enclosure with entrances on the south and the north. The temple's ceiling is undecorated, and lime-plastered. The Shiva temple is also built on a square platform. Its entrance is a recessed round arch with faint cusps and a rectangular opening to the north. Katas Raj temple complex is believed to date back to the Mahabharata era. There are stories about the Pandavas spending time there during their long exile. The lake in the complex is believed to have magical powers and supposed to be where Yudhishtir defeated the Yaksha with his wisdom to bring his brothers back to life.

Legends

Many legends are associated with it, some of them involving Shiva himself. Legend says that the five Pandava brothers, heroes of the Sanskrit epic Mahabharata, stayed here for four out of the 14 years that they spent in exile.

Another legend involves the death of Shiva's wife Satti, so the story goes that when she died he cried so much and for so long, that his tears created two holy ponds - one at Pushkara in Ajmer and the other at Ketaksha, which literally means raining eyes, in Sanskrit. It is from this name that the word Ketas is derived. Another version of the legend mentions the two pools at Katasraj and Nainital.

Here is a nice article on its recent restoration:

SPECIAL STORY

 

[Flintlock]

I don't understand why the history curriculum is so flawed in Pakistan. Year after year after year students are made to cram the same dull facts and dates and then recreate them on paper. What can be expected with this kind of education? It all starts with the arrival of the Brits, mentions the Mughals, but is mostly focussed on on post 1900 history.

Why aren't our students taught the rich history before that time? Our history textbooks should start from as far back as Mehrgarh (7000 BC). The Indo-Greek empire was a very interesting as well, but I had never heard of it until I stumbled upon the article on Wikipedia.

Also, why are little kids who haven't even procured proper reading/writing skills made to study history? Kids do not understand the political, social and economic factors that one must understand in order to fully grasp history. Most of the major historical topics should be introduced for the first time during high school so that the meterial is new and interesting to the students instead of the same thing they've been spweing like robots for years without appreciating it.

I completely agree.

Students must be presented with a comprehensive and deep history syllabus that doesn't try to glorify one particular historical period over another.

They must be taught more about the nature of history as change and progress, rather than the triumph of their favourite king over the other one.

Only then will society develop a good understanding of the dynamics of society...and not hark back to the "golden age" every time there is a crisis.

I think Indian history books offer a much more comprehensive view of history, by including everything from the Aryan migration to the Independence movement.

However, the books present a very "marxist" view, for the lack of a better word.
They should give a better look at history that enables students to understand the conditions in modern india better, rather than talk about each empire in glowing terms, thus presenting us with a paradox when we look at the conditions in present day India.

 

[roadrunner]

Well, here is wikipedia for a start:

Wikipedia is not a credible reference.

 

[Flintlock]

Wikipedia is not a credible reference.

Dude, I know what wikipedia is credible for and what it isn't

While describing a famous site like the Katasraj temples, it obviously won't make any errors.
If the author says that there is a hanuman temple, then there probably is one.

Anyways, why don't you check the news article below?

SPECIAL STORY

 

[Flintlock]

Fine, here's a Pakistani site:

Katasraj Temples grandeur to be restored
Written by Shoaib Ahmed, The Daily Times Pakistan
Tuesday, 27 June 2006

LAHORE: Three-phased restoration work on the Katasraj Temples will begin next month and Rs 30 million is expected to be spent on the first phase, sources in the Punjab Archeology Department (PAD) told Daily Times on Monday. The Katasraj Temples were transferred to the PAD recently.

Sources said a list of recommendations had been finalised for the restoration suggested by Pakistani and Indian officials from the archeology departments of both countries. They said that a comprehensive study had been made in this regard. The ponds at the temples would be cleaned and enlarged, they said, adding that the ponds would also be fenced. They said the Shiva Temple and the adjacent area would be restored and debris would be removed. The missing staircase would be rebuilt and the walls would be plastered, they added.


Sources said that proper pathways leading to the pools, Shiva Temple, Hanuman Temple, Ramachandra Temple, Stupa and Hari Singh’s Haveli would be built.

They said that the flight of steps to the haveli’s eastern entrance and the damaged wooden doors would also be repaired.

New benches would be set there and new changing rooms for male and female pilgrims would be built, they said, adding that the youth hostels would be upgraded and proper facilities for toilets and drinking water would be provided. A website on Katasraj Temples and a publicity camping of the area will also be launched.

In phase two of the plan the Satghara Temples, Hanuman Temples and Ramchandara Temples will be restored. All paintings in the Hanuman and Ramchandra temples will be treated chemically, and lodging facilities for tourists will also be provided.

In phase three, a site museum will be established, and the Satghara Temples, Stupa and the slopes of the hillock overlooking the pond will be landscaped.

An open-area with parking facilities on the eastern road leading to Kallar Kahar will be established, and a road leading to the site from various locations will also be built. Sources said the government would fund the project to be completed at an estimated cost of $25 million.

The restoration of Katasraj Temples was planned during LK Advani’s (a Lok Sabha leader) visit to Pakistan in 2005. The leader laid the foundation stone for the restoration of the temples and assured his assistance for this purpose.

On September 1, 2005, a meeting was held on Katasraj Temples between Chauhdry Shujaat Hussain and Shiv Shankar Menon (the Indian high commissioner to Pakistan).

Sources said that Pakistani and Indian politicians had agreed that once the Katasraj Temples were restored, Babri mosque in India would be rebuilt.

Katas, famous for the Katasraj Temples dedicated to Lord Shiva, is an important site for Hindu pilgrims in Pakistan. The Katasraj shrine stands on a site believed to be visited by the Pandava Brothers of the great Indian epic Mahabharta. Katas is located on River Jhelum’s right bank, 26 kilometres away from Pind Dadan Khan and 30 km from Chakwal. There are several myths associated wit the Katasraj Temples.

Punjab Heritage - Katasraj Temples grandeur to be restored

 

[roadrunner]

The Katsaraj Temples were built around 600 BC in Pakistan. This means they could not have been Hindu temples, since Hinduism originated elsewhere much later. Hamayun, the monkey God, is not mentioned in the Rig Veda. He is mentioned in poetry much later than 600 BC. If there is a "Hamayun Temple", then it was added on later to this clearly Vedic temple (it would have to be Vedic if it was built in 600 BC. ) It must have started out Vedic, then some of the Punjabi Hindu worshippers must have extended it and renamed it. So yes, it might have been re-structured into a Hindu temple, but it wasn't one originally.

 

[Flintlock]

The Katsaraj Temples were built around 600 BC in Pakistan. This means they could not have been Hindu temples, since Hinduism originated elsewhere much later. Hamayun, the monkey God, is not mentioned in the Rig Veda. He is mentioned in poetry much later than 600 BC. If there is a "Hamayun Temple", then it was added on later to this clearly Vedic temple (it would have to be Vedic if it was built in 600 BC. ) It must have started out Vedic, then some of the Punjabi Hindu worshippers must have extended it and renamed it. So yes, it might have been re-structured into a Hindu temple, but it wasn't one originally.

Man, your hinduism theories are hilarious.

Hinduism evolved from Vedic religion into the present one. There is no clear boundary line that says "This is where Vedism ends and hinduism begins"

All you are trying to do is brand Vedic religion as "anything but hinduism", in order to dissociate Pakistan's history from hindus.

Also, it doesn't matter what the site was in 600 BC. At the time of partition, the site contained hindu and buddhist temples, which were abandoned.

P.S>. Its Hanuman, not Hamayun.