Anatomy of the Hatf-VIII Ra’ad Air Launched Cruise Missile

[Muhammad Omar]

But JF-17 will Carry 2 ra'ad Missile under wings or hard points which was actually planned... ??? a drop tank tank under the belly for additional range..

 

[MastanKhan]

@JamD

Great job my man---. That was an excellent effort---and a great post.

I think the paf will pull out another rabbit out of the hat---and we will be left scratching our heads saying ' what happened'. Some how or the other---Raad will get integrated with JF17---. Would it be with a folded tail---it is yet to be seen.

But as the paf has gone into a secretive mode---we may not find out too many details about it---specially when this item is not for sale.

How can you claim it as indigenous when it cannot be launched from more than one type of fighter plane in PaF inventory. Had it been our complete design, we would had kept atleast JF17s in mind as JF17 project was started in early 2000s. Either JF17 team was complete oblivion to this missile or the Pakistani engineers of Raad.

HJi,

If you have a .308 bullet---you only need one rifle to fire it---and we already have that rifle---.

Due to known reasons---it cannot be launched from the F16's and we don't want it to---.

The primary goal of the JF17 was not the launching of a Raad missile but air superiority and ground strike thru other munitions---. Most of that stuff is done and some of it is getting the last touches---.

When the size of the JF17 was finalized---a lots of compromises were also made as well---and one of them was the location where the wheels assembly would retract and what length of struts could we use given the space---.

 

[war&peace]

Solutions:

On Ra'ad's side

1. Retractable Ventral Fins
2. Dorsal Fins instead of ventral fins
3. X-fins instead of TVT and Ventral Fins with complex controls
4. Overall size and weight reduction through MDO
5. Reducing the size of TVT for under the wing configuration

On Carrier side

1. Redesign of JF-17 airframe to accommodate for larger landing gears
2. Procure JH7-B, Su-35 or any platform with tall legs and good carrying capacity
3. Keep flying Rose updated Mirages (Allah ka naam le kar)

 

[Arsalan]

Good work @JamD . You did went into details to explain the system but i would just like for you to add two things and add them prominently in the post if possible. First, the dimensions you quoted are mostly not official figures but you have deduced them using pixel count. There is easily a margin of error, 10 to 15% ? Please make it clear that this is what will be required to make RAAD clear for center hard point. The other thing i would request you is to further work out comparison with fuel tank that we see JF17 carries on center hard point. What are the dimensional differences there? This will help people understand the problem better. I know you have covered the first part in your post already but i see this post being quoted as "reference" in some future discussion so i would love it you can stress on the fact that these are geometrical comparisons with a considerable margin of error, enough to change the conclusion completely.

One thing that i would like to add from my side is that RAAD is not for export so whether JF17 can carry one under fuselage or not is something that we might not know about for sure. (we are mostly publicizing thing that will help its export potential)

Thank you again and great work with this detailed article.

Best regards!
Arsalan

 

[Blue Marlin]

@Oscar @Quwa @Blue Marlin

so quwa mentioned above its for a nuclear strike and thats it. so when it was being designed the designers knew it would only have to fit on the mirage aircraft and thats it. so they had quiet a lot of space to work with.
if i were to have some critisisms it would be the design its self more to the rear of the alcm in regards to the intake and the rear control/stabilise surfaces.

below is the raad on the ground and its clear the intake scoop is retracted

but newer missiles have ther intakes built in example being the agm-158 series

also the same applies to the controll surfacesthe agm-158 has its control surface retracted

whilst the raads are out there and static

one can argue that im comparing it to a brand new western missile but these features are on many other differant types of cruise missiles out there.
but all of these critisism can be deflected by that of "who cares..... it can do the job"

 

[Arsalan]

The above argument begs the question why is the Ra’ad such a heavy system for the capability it provides.

Ra’ad
1100 kg
350 km range
4.88 m length
450 kg payload

JASSM
1021 kg
1000 km range (ER version)
4.27 m length
450 kg payload

The reasons for this can be only speculated but I suspect that:

1. The Powerplant being used is heavy and inefficient compared to JASSM (definitely true).

2. The subsystems are not evolved enough to be compact and light. These include INS systems, hydraulics/pneumatics/electric actuators.

3. The subsystems are not designed or modified for the Ra’ad to save costs and therefore pack poorly inside the missile.

Sorry i forgot to add to this one point earlier,

4. They just felt more comfortable stating the range is 350 Km. We know this can happen in our military forces.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@JamD @Tempest II @Windjammer @MastanKhan @Arsalan @Quwa

We are using JF-17's ground clearance data which is inclusive of the external fuel tanks. This indicates that the landing gears are lower than they can actually be without the fuel tanks. We know that RA'AD would not weigh as much as the fully loaded fuel tanks making this picture very different.

@Windjammer Sir, if you may be kind enough to help in this regards.

Even a modification in the dimensions of RA'AD may not be required...

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Pakistan is a funny country, where the SLCMs, ALCMs are designed for various WMD roles, and later conventional and precision W/H are developed. Needless to say, both capabilities are well in place, details of which will never see the light of day.

 

[Arsalan]

@JamD @Tempest II @Windjammer @MastanKhan @Arsalan @Quwa

We are using JF-17's ground clearance data which is inclusive of the external fuel tanks. This indicates that the landing gears are lower than they can actually be without the fuel tanks. We know that RA'AD would not weigh as much as the fully loaded fuel tanks making this picture very different.
View attachment 314032
@Windjammer Sir, if you may be kind enough to help in this regards.

Even a modification in the dimensions of RA'AD may not be required...
View attachment 314033

I do not think one should base an argument on such little difference. If so, there are so many other important parameters you must bring into account. The weight difference wont create that much of a difference in clearance.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I do not think one should base an argument on such little difference. If so, there are so many other important parameters you must bring into account. The weight difference wont create that much of a difference in clearance.

Sir, if you see the first picture the missile will touch the ground as soon as the pilot rotates causing damage to the missile directional stability.

This difference can indicate mission failure as well as loss of aircraft at the time of liftoff causing nuclear contamination at the airbase. Hope you understand why this is important.

@Bilal Khan 777 Sir your thoughts are every valuable.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Sir, if you see the first picture the missile will touch the ground as soon as the pilot rotates causing damage to the missile directional stability.

This difference can indicate mission failure as well as loss of aircraft at the time of liftoff causing nuclear contamination at the airbase. Hope you understand why this is important.

@Bilal Khan 777 Sir your thoughts are every valuable.

JF17 is strictly a conventional weapons aircraft, designed to replace A5, F6, F7, Mirage 3and Block 15 F16. It is not a long range strategic strike aircraft, and is not design or destined to replace Mirage 5 or ROSE Mirage V. In short or long run, JFT will not employ any weapon that has strategic implications.

Arguing whether Ra'ad ALCM can be integrated or not is not relevant to JFT. Ra'ad, in its land attack, sea attack, and other strategic roles is in-production, and accepted and inducted weapon. Anything for JFT would either be developed or acquired.

 

[Windjammer]

@JamD @Tempest II @Windjammer @MastanKhan @Arsalan @Quwa

We are using JF-17's ground clearance data which is inclusive of the external fuel tanks. This indicates that the landing gears are lower than they can actually be without the fuel tanks. We know that RA'AD would not weigh as much as the fully loaded fuel tanks making this picture very different.
View attachment 314032
@Windjammer Sir, if you may be kind enough to help in this regards.

Even a modification in the dimensions of RA'AD may not be required...
View attachment 314033

May be this image would help, the centre line is cleared for a 1000 Kg load.

 

[Windjammer]

Just out of interest, instead of focusing on a single projectile on the centre line pylon, why wouldn't the PAF adopt the following mission profile. It can even do away with say the SD-10s to save weight.

 

[nomi007]

redesigning RA'AD can solve this issue
2nd PAF need some bigger platforms for air launch cruise missile
like su-34/35 or H-6K
other option is find mirage 2000/5 fighters to replace mirages

 

[shah1398]

Just out of interest, instead of focusing on a single projectile on the centre line pylon, why wouldn't the PAF adopt the following mission profile. It can even do away with say the SD-10s to save weight.

You are very right Sir and we can even remove all other missiles from that very bird carrying Raad and provide ESCORT esp if its carrying non conventional warhead.