Analysis: PAF's Fighter Modernization Roadmap (Part-1)

[Quwa]

If we want to buy used F-16's from another country like EU or Jordan , do we have take NOC from US ?or in any way US can block the sell ? ask the seller to stop the sell ? or the selling rights is in complete control of the Operating country ?



Availability of used F-16 always remain a unanswered question for PAF , the price and performance wise, F-16 can be a good addition cause we have a required setup to add more fighters without extra training or other cost .
but Europe and Pakistan relations were never been so good , recently as per Zarvans posts, Belgium is looking for a new fighter to replace old F-16's , they have 150+ F-16 A/B , block 10-15 .. we can get our hands on 18-36 , but again , US wont let that happen .

@Oscar @Quwa how will you guy rate Mig-35 ? quality and cost wise ? thrust , payload , maneuverability , and other factors ? will it be wise for PAF to look into Mig-35 ?

The MiG-35 is a good platform. The fact that it has engine commonality with the JF-17 makes it a particularly attractive option. However, we have to answer the same question, is the added improvement worth the added cost? Remember, we are dealing with a financial situation where every decision made can affect the PAF in the long-term.

Unfortunately, even the MiG-35 - while a welcome addition - wouldn't add enough to justify the cost of inducting a new fighter platform that is in the same general area of an existing fighter, i.e. F-16. The PAF should focus on securing a platform that would meet its medium-weight fighter needs of the future, i.e. replace the F-16. For that, I recommend looking at the FC-31.

If you want an interim platform that can offer a significant capability boost, i.e. justify the added cost, then a heavyweight fighter, such as the Su-35 and Su-34, would be a good start. At least there the PAF is building out a credible presence in terms of its maritime operations and long-range strike needs.

 

[litman]

PAF should go on with the induction of F-16s and JFTs. Then they should directly go for a fifth gen jet from china.It is only a matter of few years when the chinese stealth jets will be fully operational. As a stop gap measure J10 seems to be a better choice then Su-35 due to it's cost effectiveness and maintenance.

 

[Tipu7]

@Quwa

 

[rockstar08]

The MiG-35 is a good platform. The fact that it has engine commonality with the JF-17 makes it a particularly attractive option. However, we have to answer the same question, is the added improvement worth the added cost? Remember, we are dealing with a financial situation where every decision made can affect the PAF in the long-term.

Unfortunately, even the MiG-35 - while a welcome addition - wouldn't add enough to justify the cost of inducting a new fighter platform that is in the same general area of an existing fighter, i.e. F-16. The PAF should focus on securing a platform that would meet its medium-weight fighter needs of the future, i.e. replace the F-16. For that, I recommend looking at the FC-31.

If you want an interim platform that can offer a significant capability boost, i.e. justify the added cost, then a heavyweight fighter, such as the Su-35 and Su-34, would be a good start. At least there the PAF is building out a credible presence in terms of its maritime operations and long-range strike needs.

Last i heard Russian planned on opening a over-hauling facility in PAC karma for RD-93 Engines , it will reduce a bit of cost in term of operating a new Platform as you mentioned Mig-35 use the same Engine .
training cost , assembly , maintenance , and spare part cost will still be there , so yeah it make sense .

we can make a long term planned budget, and distribute our resources into few Projects as equal , apart from the slight rise in Budget every year, by mid 2018, we can see some export orders of JF that will bring some cash .

Mig-35 cost is unknown , but good thing is that its not a old platform , first flight was in 2007, if it comes in cost of F-16 block 52's , than we can at least planned to have 1 sq by 2020 ..

Mig's can give us a good experience to operate twin engine jets as PAF last twin engine jets retired decades ago .
FC-31 is a good option , but still have to wait till 2020 to come up with a final and modified Prototype , even before we see a full scale Serial production starts .

US wont be selling F-15 or F-18's to us , they might be good additions too, EF is too expensive but with that all these three platforms multiply our capabilities .. every Capable machine is expensive these days, so don't you think we have to keep the financial hurdles and for once look for a future in which the war is always on our door steps .

look at for NAVY, after years of struggle at least now they get some FUNDS to buy 8 Subs .. and if we believe in other senior members here, Navy is also looking for a credible Frigate option .. so you just have to make some room .

 

[Quwa]

@Quwa

View attachment 295340

A-Darter would be a tremendously welcome addition to the JF-17. In fact, with HMD/S it would give the JF-17 a major leg-up against PAF's F-16s, which are not equipped with a HOBS AAM. It would also make the Thunder a much more credible threat to all enemies in WVR.

 

[Super Falcon]

Instead of wasting funds on F 16 which wont do any difference better we buy SU 35 as russia also want to sell it maintanance etc wont be headache due to china already ordered them too so we can share help in maintanance etc we always beat drums of downed economy when in 2005 our economy was better we ordered initial 72 new F 16 end up canceling all and buy only 18

One way or the other we have to start as our options are limited we better start today other option is J 10 yes it might be new but these type of risk u have to take as we took with JF 17

IFyou keep crying for funds keep crying for logistics etc keep crying for not taking risk of new jets than PAF future is dark

If we go by thinking of PAF it cant take risk with new jets

Jets like F 15 SU 35 F 18 F 16 EF 2000 RAFALE never existed all of these plane owners took that risk

 

[Basel]

Last i heard Russian planned on opening a over-hauling facility in PAC karma for RD-93 Engines , it will reduce a bit of cost in term of operating a new Platform as you mentioned Mig-35 use the same Engine .
training cost , assembly , maintenance , and spare part cost will still be there , so yeah it make sense .

we can make a long term planned budget, and distribute our resources into few Projects as equal , apart from the slight rise in Budget every year, by mid 2018, we can see some export orders of JF that will bring some cash .

Mig-35 cost is unknown , but good thing is that its not a old platform , first flight was in 2007, if it comes in cost of F-16 block 52's , than we can at least planned to have 1 sq by 2020 ..

Mig's can give us a good experience to operate twin engine jets as PAF last twin engine jets retired decades ago .
FC-31 is a good option , but still have to wait till 2020 to come up with a final and modified Prototype , even before we see a full scale Serial production starts .

US wont be selling F-15 or F-18's to us , they might be good additions too, EF is too expensive but with that all these three platforms multiply our capabilities .. every Capable machine is expensive these days, so don't you think we have to keep the financial hurdles and for once look for a future in which the war is always on our door steps .

look at for NAVY, after years of struggle at least now they get some FUNDS to buy 8 Subs .. and if we believe in other senior members here, Navy is also looking for a credible Frigate option .. so you just have to make some room .

The questions are, is it cost effective in purchasing and lifecycle cost? What benefit it offer over F-16, JFT or J10B/C?

Only thing it offer big is that Pakistan may be able to purchase MIG-35K for ACC in future if China lease its Liaoning in future to Pakistan.

 

[rockstar08]

@Quwa @Chinese-Dragon @Deino @araz @MastanKhan @Blue Marlin @Basel

I was looking at J-10C , and this image pop up ... can anyone confirm that this is really a real plane or some fanboy stuff ?

 

[Deino]

Unclear to admit, it seems as if the one in the first image was indeed a true project - some say CAC's concurring design to the first carrier aircraft, which was won by SAC with the J-15 - but the one below is pure fan boy and not even a good one !

 

[Blue Marlin]

@Quwa @Chinese-Dragon @Deino @araz @MastanKhan @Blue Marlin @Basel

I was looking at J-10C , and this image pop up ... can anyone confirm that this is really a real plane or some fanboy stuff ?

fanboy stuff, the j10c is already out there. cant beleve you did this. it like saying the image below is the jf-17 block 3

 

[rockstar08]

fanboy stuff, the j10c is already out there. cant beleve you did this. it like saying the image below is the jf-17 block 3

i posted it here cause the Air frame is exactly as J-10's but with two engines ..
the JF pictures is of course fake cause every one knows we don't have multiple projects running which people know off .. we can expect it from China ..
by the way, what you do you think of that J-10 model with twin engine ? seem impressive to me ..

Unclear to admit, it seems as if the one in the first image was indeed a true project - some say CAC's concurring design to the first carrier aircraft, which was won by SAC with the J-15 - but the one below is pure fan boy and not even a good one !

it was posted back in 2012 ..
Stealthy J-10C confirmed | Page 5
Post # 75

 

[Deino]

...
it was posted back in 2012 ..
Stealthy J-10C confirmed | Page 5
Post # 75

Yes, but if I edit something at Wikipedia and then quote my own edited text a "Source: Wiki" ... is it then correct ??

As far as i know this Russian report did nothing more than picking up these reports about a "stealthy J-10C", drew a nice drawing based on CG's circling thru the net during these days ... but again is or was it ever real ??

At least I won't take a Russian Aviation magaine's report as a confirmation....

 

[Blue Marlin]

i posted it here cause the Air frame is exactly as J-10's but with two engines ..
the JF pictures is of course fake cause every one knows we don't have multiple projects running which people know off .. we can expect it from China ..
by the way, what you do you think of that J-10 model with twin engine ? seem impressive to me ..



it was posted back in 2012 ..
Stealthy J-10C confirmed | Page 5
Post # 75

why? though? they have the j11 as a twin engined fighter. the j10 was made as a single engined fighter so its best if it stayed a single engined fighter

 

[Basel]

why? though? they have the j11 as a twin engined fighter. the j10 was made as a single engined fighter so its best if it stayed a single engined fighter

Few years ago twin engine J-10 concept specially for ACC was there but then I think it lost to J-15/16, but in my opinion twin engine J-10 will be as good as MIG-29K, Liaoning will be able to accommodate more birds too.

@Blue Marlin @rockstar08 @Quwa @Deino

 

[Zarvan]

Few years ago twin engine J-10 concept specially for ACC was there but then I think it lost to J-15/16, but in my opinion twin engine J-10 will be as good as MIG-29K, Liaoning will be able to accommodate more birds too.

@Blue Marlin @rockstar08 @Quwa @Deino

The problem is Russia raising objection to J series to Pakistan except for J-10 other wise Pakistan should look for J-11 D or new up coming J-16