An open letter to Hamas

[valkyr_96]

just putting this out there....

"You are naive, peacefan. This war is not about land, it never was. It is about ideologies.
The same Hamas you are trying to help, the same Arabs you are trying to help, would cut your throat open on a whim if you insulted their way of life.
Your life means nothing to them. To them you are nothing more than a foolish white european man who doesn't understand that the war is of ideologies, one of tyranny and oppression and the other of freedom and justice."

"The Israelis are notorious for not allowing anyone to disagree with
them. I found that out firsthand by getting an IP-ban on their
israelmilitary.net forum (which I can bypass when I want),
when I criticised their "asymmetrical warfare" during operation cast lead,
which I found way too harsh and having created way too many innocent
Palestinian victims."

 

[PeaceGen]

Can you try to convince Israel for a change to stop this terrorism? Only if you could get out of that 'right to defend itself' baloney.

All I can really do on the Israeli side until Muslims everywhere stop with terrorism is to call for them to make less civilian casualties. And I'll continue to do that, as I have done since 2008.

 

[Developereo]

peacefan,

Do you support colonialism?
Do you support the actions of religious bigots to invade a foreign land, throw out the natives, and claim that land as their divine right?

 

[JayAtl]

peacefan,

Do you support colonialism?
Do you support the actions of religious bigots to invade a foreign land, throw out the natives, and claim that land as their divine right?

do you not find the irony that you ask him that - while living yourself in an ex colony out of choice, one's who took over the land from the indigenous population. did not seem to bother you to go live off it's welfare. then yourself coming from a previous colonized nation and one whose history of it's people is stooped in their religious bigots taking over foreign lands and converting people through centuries.

such naivete in not understanding that no one people(s) hands are clean ... to go lecture others.

 

[Developereo]

do you not find the irony that you ask him that - while living yourself in an ex colony out of choice, one's who took over the land from the indigenous population. did not seem to bother you to go live off it's welfare. then yourself coming from a previous colonized nation and one whose history of it's people is stooped in their religious bigots taking over foreign lands and converting people through centuries.

such naivete in not understanding that no one people(s) hands are clean ... to go lecture others.

It's hilarious when you try to sound intellectual.

I especially like the 'welfare' jab -- it showcases your level of desperation.

P.S. As for your midget intellectualism about 'religious conversions', I don't want to waste any time educating you. I suggest you look at recent threads, especially about 'turning point of Indian subcontinent', to educate yourself about the subject. Eminent Indians like Joe Shearer ripped apart the Hindutva brainwashing that you seem to have absorbed.

 

[JayAtl]

It's hilarious when you try to sound intellectual.

I especially like the 'welfare' jab -- it showcases your level of desperation.

P.S. As for your midget intellectualism about 'religious conversions', I don't want to waste any time educating you. I suggest you look at recent threads, especially about 'turning point of Indian subcontinent', to educate yourself about the subject. Eminent Indians like Joe Shearer ripped apart the Hindutva brainwashing that you seem to have absorbed.

There you go again on your " I see Hinduvata people in my sleep". You are a noun verb and a bigoted statement away from every conversation . I know you are a bit slow on the uptake I know that. But when I speak of centuries of conversion it is a historical perspective and not an handful of incidents being discussed. When I say welfare- it does not mean to say you are ON welfare ( even if you were that is not something I would make fun of- hard times perhaps?) rather as an example our constitution says that its the responsibility of the country to provide for it's citizens "welfare". Keep that cap shining red

 

[Developereo]

There you go again on your " I see Hinduvata people in my sleep". You are a noun verb and a bigoted statement away from every conversation . I know you are a bit slow on the uptake I know that. But when I speak of centuries of conversion it is a historical perspective and not an handful of incidents being discussed. When I say welfare- it does not mean to say you are ON welfare ( even if you were that is not something I would make fun of- hard times perhaps?) rather as an example our constitution says that its the responsibility of the country to provide for it's citizens "welfare". Keep that cap shining red

Yes, your 'historical perspective' was dissected in that thread. Read it and educate yourself.

No need to derail this thread.

 

[Meengla]

The power of nonviolent resistance is a myth promoted by repressive regimes to keep their victims in check.

The British did not leave India because of Gandhi; they left because the age of colonialism was over, and colonial empires the world over were shrinking back. All the other colonies got their independence in that era. Without their Gandhi.

Nelson Mandela would have achieved nothing if the dominant Western media hadn't taken up his cause. The true credit for liberating South Africa goes to the Western media for raising awareness and putting global pressure onto the apartheid regime.

Martin Luther King, Jr. also would have been a non-entity were it not for the white media to take up his cause. It was Lyndon B. Johnson who advanced key legislation for the civil rights movement, and that happened because of public pressure drummed up by the white media. Ditto for the Vietnam cause.

Bottom line: if 1000 people show up and the media hypes it up, then it becomes a righteous cause. If 100,000 people show up and the media downplays it, or portrays it as a violent mob, then the cause gets marginalized.

Given the absolute dominance of the Western media by the pro-Israeli lobby, there is no way the Palestinians can get their message across. In what universe can a ruthless group of religious fanatics go over and colonize a foreign land, evict the local residents, proclaim their racial superiority and manifest destiny -- ordained by God himself -- to rule that land, and portray themselves as the victims in all this?

You and I had big disagreements when Gov. Salman Taseer was killed. But this is correct and eloquently expressed. Thank you and keep up the fight for the downtrodden.
All of us should remember this: By early 1942 Hitler must have been seen insurmountable; by early 1980's the Apartheid in South Africa or the Soviets was too well-entrenched... but they all still fell.

Some people are trying to replicate the subjugation of the American Indians in the 19th century now in the land long known as 'Palestine'. May be they will succeed--they have the back of the mightiest military power and two of the largest economic blocks in the world. But WE-- who have studied some history--will not sit quietly. We will speak up--even to the side of the 'vanquished'--and will record our voice.

Someone, sometime, somewhere in future will note that we spoke up for justice. We spoke up for those who were not only denied their ancestral lands but also their freedoms and dignity.

 

[JayAtl]

Yes, your 'historical perspective' was dissected in that thread. Read it and educate yourself.

No need to derail this thread.

The only dissection going on here is your new found revisionist history, you need to fall back on bigoted statements and your further hugging of the Lal Topi brigade. Keep that cap shining Red!

 

[Developereo]

Someone, sometime, somewhere in future will note that we spoke up for justice. We spoke up for those who were not only denied their ancestral lands but also their freedoms and dignity.

The modern State of Israel is a living testament to 'might is right'. They have unmatched superiority in technological and propaganda capabilities; they can make the smartest planes and the deadliest missiles; they can make a million documentaries portraying themselves as the victims; but they cannot change history.

They cannot change how the modern State of Israel came to be: the deception, terrorism and ethnic cleansing that went into making it. The rabid racial superiority combined with a divinely inspired manifest destiny -- almost akin to Nazi ideology -- that is needed to perpetuate it.

The West may support them, mostly out of Holocaust guilt, but the facts of history will always haunt them and, in time, will put them to shame.

 

[fallstuff]

God is near me every day.. Helping me in this task of peace brokering.

I find your attitude counter-productive. With some research and technical knowhow, it is fairly easy to find out who I am and where I live, and nobody has ever come to kill me. And I don't just insult a persons way of life, I CRITICISE only those choices of people that cause innocent people suffering, and then only in the area of warfare between large groups of people.

On March 14, 2003, during an interview with the Middle East Broadcasting network, Rachel Corrie said:

I feel like I'm witnessing the systematic destruction of a people's ability to survive.... Sometimes I sit down to dinner with people and I realize there is a massive military machine surrounding us, trying to kill the people I'm having dinner with

On March 16, 2003 the IDF was engaged in an operation involving the demolition of Palestinian houses in a military zone between the Rafah refugee camp and the Egyptian border called Philadelphi Route.[37] Corrie was part of a group of three British and four American ISM activists attempting to disrupt the IDF operation. Corrie placed herself in the path of a Caterpillar D9R armored bulldozer in the area and was fatally injured. After she was injured she was taken by a Red Crescent ambulance to the Palestinian Najar hospital, arriving at the emergency room at 5:05 pm still alive but near death. At 5:20 pm she was declared dead..



Rachel Corrie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PeaceGen]

{1} The power of nonviolent resistance is a myth promoted by repressive regimes to keep their victims in check.

I respectfully disagree completely with this, please let me explain, but first I'll address your other claims;

{2} The British did not leave India because of Gandhi; they left because the age of colonialism was over, and colonial empires the world over were shrinking back. All the other colonies got their independence in that era. Without their Gandhi.

Not according to what I saw of the history of India and Pakistan; Gandhi (1982) (free copy, download app (no mal/spyware)).

You could claim that this movie is western propaganda to support {1}, but you would be the first I ever met to do so.

{3} Nelson Mandela would have achieved nothing if the dominant Western media hadn't taken up his cause. The true credit for liberating South Africa goes to the Western media for raising awareness and putting global pressure onto the apartheid regime.

Yes, and it's another case of using western media to restrain western arrogance and oppression. It was the whites who ruled South Africa unjustly, and they were reigned in by descendants of their ancestors from stable white-people countries.

I don't claim to know the exact reasons for westerners to put South-Africa in the shame of not being allowed onto the Olympics for quite a number of years, the shame they endured for a long time in the eyes of their western peers (I know I didn't like white South-Africans at all during the apartheid age, nor did any of my peers, parents, uncles or aunts here in NL).
But I have to assume we could no longer allow whites to abuse blacks in that country because a steady stream of news that those white South-Africans were using way too much violence against blacks to stay in power reached the minds of our own citizens, who ended up petitioning those western governments AND the Olympic committee for the South-African to (gradually!) be made an outcast so much that they'd have to free Nelson Mandela, give blacks a real vote (thereby enabling Mandela to become President of South-Africa), and I must say; fix up the problem completely eventually.
Even land was returned in the end to the blacks by now, although the blacks of South-Africa still need the white, former ruling, South-Africans as farming advisors and financial advisors. Or they won't raise a harvest of any significance. But even that will eventually smooth out, I think. With blacks becoming savvy entrepeneurs.

{4} Martin Luther King, Jr. also would have been a non-entity were it not for the white media to take up his cause. It was Lyndon B. Johnson who advanced key legislation for the civil rights movement, and that happened because of public pressure drummed up by the white media. Ditto for the Vietnam cause.

And what did Martin Luther King advocate? Peaceful resistance; "civil disobedience" was his (and his supporter's) term for it. We still use that term today. Those American students this year, back in the good old USA, who sit there on the concrete floor ouside their university, blocking the way or something, but refusing to move when a police officer tells them to, and that American police officer using a huge ******** can of pepperspray on all of them, they didn't strike back at the officer, they VERY PATIENTLY petitioned the court-system for a compensation. Within 6 months after the event, the students got enough money from the courts to enable them to pay for the rest of their studies!

{5} Bottom line: if 1000 people show up and the media hypes it up, then it becomes a righteous cause. If 100,000 people show up and the media downplays it, or portrays it as a violent mob, then the cause gets marginalized.

Yes, I agree. And it's the circumstances that drive the demonstrators or mob to gather outside, AND how those demonstrators behave themselves, that determine if their cause is just in the eyes of the mass media.

{6} Given the absolute dominance of the Western media by the pro-Israeli lobby, there is no way the Palestinians can get their message across.

The Palestinians and the Jihadists can not get their message heard by ordinary westerners through western mass media BECAUSE you cling to the tactic of terrorism like it's your only hope. IT'S NOT YOUR ONLY HOPE. In fact, I remain of the opinion my solution would work much better for Muslims. You and only you can end the violence by taking hits without striking back. The moment you strike back the timer for rewards and fruits is reset.

{7} In what universe can a ruthless group of religious fanatics go over and colonize a foreign land, evict the local residents, proclaim their racial superiority and manifest destiny -- ordained by God himself -- to rule that land, and portray themselves as the victims in all this?

Well, first of all the Israelis would be a whole lot less arrogant if the Muslims hadn't tried to drive them into the sea with all surrounding countries ganging up on the Israelis the moment the UN created Israel..

But to take your same words, and apply that to what I think is wrong with some Muslims (who are probably not so much in Palestine, mind you!)

On what planet can a group of ruthless religious fanatics enslave their wives and daughters, prevent them from going to school even, distrust them so much that they are not allowed to leave the home without a man from that same family with them, or without a fully covered body? And should any of these women governed by these religious fanatics be free enough to choose their own man, see them killed by their own father or brother or nephew, because of "honor for the family"? That's not honor, Muslims. At least not what I consider honerable. It's terrorizing your own family members. If slappings don't work, you just kill them because "Allah wants you to". I think it's more like arrogant and insecure man after arrogant and insecure man, who put and kept THAT piece of "divine law" into the Quran.

That's not to say Palestinian men treat their wives and daughters this way, it's just to show Muslims can claim some pretty outlandish things too as divine mandate.

Once again, I did not mean to insult Palestinians with what are hardcore Taliban opinions and habits.

Anyway, I am of the opinion all religions get outdated if they do not evolve with the time. When the Quran was written we did not have;
- the population densities of today
- the number of followers of the primary religions of Earth, and thereby the splintering of the original (mostly) divine message into several offspring variants
- the number of interactions per day between followers of different faiths (airtravel, tourism, TV, Internet)
- the number of types of weapons we have today, and the horrible-ness of those weapons

Muslims, the age we're entering is one of more personal freedom and larger differences of tastes, habits, rituals and opinions.
Either you accept those differences, even in people nearby who have "stolen your land", without resorting to what's proven to be very futile violence, or we'd all have to abolish all international airtravel, close all borders and keep everyone within their own country exclusively, then shut off international TV as well, restrict international business too (do-able if everyone agreed to share material resources without a market principle governing those transactions) and every country would need their own tiny entertainment industry then.. Probably infeasable to get into global law, it's kinda a lot you'd have to change on Earth, and something you'd have to lobby a loooong time for before it becomes reality.

But, basically, dear politically inexperienced Muslims, you give up terrorism completely and forever, then you not only stop the regular counter-attacks on your people, you GAIN THE RIGHT TO LOBBY FOR ANYTHING YOU DEEM WORTHY OF YOUR PATIENCE AND DISCUSSION ENERGIES.

I'll leave it here for now.
I feel so sorry that you people still don't get it.

 

[PeaceGen]

source : Hamas wants end to blockade in cease-fire talks, official says - CNN.com

(CNN) -- Hamas wants an end to Israel's long blockade of Gaza and raids on the territory in any cease-fire that might put a stop to five days of weaponry plummeting from the sky, a top Palestinian official said Sunday.

In my opinion, an end to the blockade is useless/unacceptable until Hamas and all the other Palestinian Jihadist groups commit to non-violent resistance and stop stockpiling weapons for the next round of violence with the Israelis.

 

[PeaceGen]

My whole argumentation of this thread is confirmed by a scholar from the US;

Prager University - The Middle East Problem - YouTube

 

[Developereo]

Gandhi (1982)

Please understand that I meant no disrespect to Gandhi by my statements. I believe he was a very noble and well-intentioned person and there's no doubt that his actions hastened the British departure from India.

My point was that the Brits would have left anyway, perhaps later rather than sooner. They left their other colonies, as did the French, Spaniards and the Dutch. The age of colonialism was over and almost everybody got their freedom without a Gandhi. In fact, some countries like Algeria paid a heavy price.

South Africa

Again, my point is that, if the Western media had focused on the violent aspects of the black resistance -- and there were violent members -- and portrayed them as a bunch of savages then the sympathy card would have played out differently. If, for whatever reason, the European whites had decided that they wanted to maintain a white power structure in South Africa, the media narrative would have been different and global pressure would not have been applied.

And what did Martin Luther King advocate? Peaceful resistance

MLK was not the first. Doesn't the Bible say to turn the other cheek and the meek shall inherit the Earth?

Once again, the reason MLK achieved anything is because the white media projected the narrative that it was time for America to move forward. It was a tumultuous time for American society: summer of love, MLK, Vietnam war. All sorts of social issues were in the forefront and the timing was right to address social ills.

If the white media had decided to ignore MLK, he would have sunk into oblivion and nothing would have changed for African-Americans as it hadn't changed for decades previously.

how those demonstrators behave themselves, that determine if their cause is just in the eyes of the mass media.

It's far more insidious than that. For domestic matters where there the media is mostly neutral, your statement applies. However, when the media is dominated by people with a bias towards one side, then the reporting is very skewed.

If you have been in a protest rally, then you know that every rally contains all sorts of people. You have mostly genuine protesters, but you also have random homeless, jobless people who tag along, you have college boys who are there just to show off to their date, and you have troublemakers who figure they can use the anonymity to 'indulge' themselves.

Depending on the media's agenda, they can focus on the genuine protesters, or they can zero in on the troublemakers and make them the story instead.

The Palestinians and the Jihadists can not get their message heard by ordinary westerners through western mass media BECAUSE you cling to the tactic of terrorism like it's your only hope. IT'S NOT YOUR ONLY HOPE. In fact, I remain of the opinion my solution would work much better for Muslims.

To put it bluntly, I do not share your optimism in the neutrality of Western media. As I stated, much of Western media has a very strong pro-Israeli bias.

I also gave you an example of what happens when Arabs follow non-violence. In East Jerusalem and the West Bank, Jewish encroachment continues unabated.

Well, first of all the Israelis would be a whole lot less arrogant if the Muslims hadn't tried to drive them into the sea with all surrounding countries ganging up on the Israelis the moment the UN created Israel..

Cart before the horse.

Israel was created to assuage Western guilt over the Holocaust and past wrongs to Jews. While the motivation was noble, the execution left something to be desired, since the Europeans decided that the Palestinians, not they, should pay the price for this atonement for European sins.

On what planet can a group of ruthless religious fanatics enslave their wives and daughters, ...

Yes, Muslim societies have a lot of ills that need to be corrected. No one is denying that, but I don't see how all that relates to this particular topic.