An Intriguing question :)

[shaktiman2010]

^^ Only sensible thing in your post was, you succeeded to make distinction between Typhoon and MKI, both are in different league.

Though, you fail to do same whenever discussion of LCA comes up.

 

[farhan_9909]

i consider rafale better then eurofighter and MKI for sure..

Rafale is best for all..if it get the new engine each with greater thrust

rafale payload is awesome
future meteor BVR suing ramjet

MKi is nothing bt a sitting duck against rafale

 

[shaktiman2010]

Problem with Mig-21 is not build quality. Its corruption with Indian Armed forces and dirty procurement process.

Also, only fools like IAF will keep flying a single plane for 40 years. But then you can't blame beggars who never planned and focused on local R&D and always ran behind Russian import agents since 40 years.

 

[shaktiman2010]

MKi is nothing bt a sitting duck against rafale

How many overweight Rafales PAF got?

 

[jagjitnatt]

Stop trolling and say something sensible. If you can't, stay out of debate.

British AJT Hawk was any better? LOL.

Also, whenever you talk about technology, it sounds like a horse-cry. Its typical with Indian army types. They lack the depth.

Wait a sec. It is a known fact that western planes have a better build quality than Russian planes. Russian planes don't come at a lower price for nothing.

Just take a look and decide for yourself.

Russian planes have the most powerful engines, radar, missiles and countermeasures but they do lack at build quality. Period.

 

[shaktiman2010]

It is a known fact that western planes have a better build quality than Russian planes. Russian planes don't come at a lower price for nothing.

So, higher price = higher build quality? That's not logical. LOL.

Corrupt Indian armed forces procurement practices can screw any good weapon system. It screwed Mig-21 by purchasing third-class spare parts at cheaper price. When scandal came into open, it was too late.

Then, it screwed Gorshkov, then British AJT Hawk deal. Hawk got rejected because British supplied third-class parts which didn't even glue.

Now its screwed even Scorpian deal. Its very easy to pass the blame onto others to hide blunders of Indian armed forces.

One fact is that, Indian armed forces planners are corrupt. This is a reality no armyman accepts in public.

What happens whenever a journalist questions Indian army officer about corruption in procurement? The army gets angry like a kid.

 

[shaktiman2010]

It seems you run after looks.

In war, looks don't matter. Functionality does. MKI are far more rugged and tested than any other under-development western plane.

So, it was sensible thing to buy 45 more MKI even though belated because 1st MRCA is 5 years away.

IAF takes right decisions sometimes but too late. They always fall in their faces.

One more sensible thing would be, better increase budget allocation to AMCA to speed up by multitasking different categories of research areas and stop running behind import lollypops.

 

[jagjitnatt]

So, higher price = higher build quality? That's not logical. LOL.

Corrupt Indian armed forces procurement practices can screw any good weapon system. It screwed Mig-21 by purchasing third-class spare parts at cheaper price. When scandal came into open, it was too late.

Then, it screwed Gorshkov, then British AJT Hawk deal. Hawk got rejected because British supplied third-class parts which didn't even glue.

Now its screwed even Scorpian deal. Its very easy to pass the blame onto others to hide blunders of Indian armed forces.

One fact is that, Indian armed forces planners are corrupt. This is a reality no armyman accepts in public.

What happens whenever a journalist questions Indian army officer about corruption in procurement? The army gets angry like a kid.

I know there are corrupt elements in the Army, but they are not limited to just India. It is a worldwide phenomena.

Mig-21 spares were not available when USSR broke down. Cheap parts had to be bought from Ukraine, just to keep our squadron strength up.

Its not Scorpion deal, its Scorpene. The sub has been delayed because France has not sent the parts yet. Nothing Indian Army could do about it.

Gorshkov deal didn't get expensive due to corrupt elements, the carrier is being refit extensively. Have you ever studied what goes into that carrier? No. You just read a report on TV and started bashing the Army. The carrier was in a much worse condition, its being rebuilt in a way. The new skijump is being installed. The cost for testing it alone several hundred million dollars.

The Hawk deal problem is under investigation. What makes you think, they won't send in the new parts? And how are you blaming Indian Army for this?

You want answers? Ask the questions...

Don't make up stories.

 

[shaktiman2010]

I know there are corrupt elements in the Army, but they are not limited to just India. It is a worldwide phenomena.

Mig-21 spares were not available when USSR broke down. Cheap parts had to be bought from Ukraine, just to keep our squadron strength up.

Its not Scorpion deal, its Scorpene. The sub has been delayed because France has not sent the parts yet. Nothing Indian Army could do about it.

Gorshkov deal didn't get expensive due to corrupt elements, the carrier is being refit extensively. Have you ever studied what goes into that carrier? No. You just read a report on TV and started bashing the Army. The carrier was in a much worse condition, its being rebuilt in a way. The new skijump is being installed. The cost for testing it alone several hundred million dollars.

The Hawk deal problem is under investigation. What makes you think, they won't send in the new parts? And how are you blaming Indian Army for this?

You want answers? Ask the questions...

Don't make up stories.

Typical Indian armed services answers of 1980's. Corruption is normal for service type guys. No big deal. That's a fact.

Why be shy to admit it?

Also, calling others corrupt don't show up your character as clean. Only Indian army type give such lame excuses. Such take it easy attitude is common in Indian army. They are okay with corruption. LOL!

Gorshkov refit was a total rip-off. Why you need pay for testing a skijump ? Is it some new technology Russia made first time? There is nothing new in it and design is already validated and tested.

Better make up new excuses because your answers suck bigtime. You are good at bluffing.

Also, Scorpene deal has nothing to do with Army. It was Navy. And, deal price went up because fools in Armed services didn't know how to settle and sign a proper legal deal. LOL!

Why blame the west and Russia when our own Indian armed services are full of corrupt morons? That doesn't make sense.

I have never seen such knee deep corruption in western armies. It laughable how you can even compare sucked up Indian army with western armies which are far more better disciplined and corruption is quite less compared to Indian armies.

 

[shaktiman2010]

Also, there is no point blaming Russia for Mig-21.

IAF neglected and dried up funds to HAL for 21 years and asked them close down aircraft R&D because they were living in lala-dreams and vodka girls at courtesy of import agents.

You are talking as if Indian service chiefs are some saints and angels. That's a joke.

When USSR broke, suddenly a bomb exploded under IAF's a$$ and they realized that they don't have a home-grown aircraft R&D programme! oh we are fucked! LOL!

That's what happens when armed services are run by brainy morons at top who earn for themselves and plan only short-term.

If Indian armed forces had brains, HAL would had never closed local R&D. Because funds were always there, but IAF never showed big committment to local R&D.

Why blame Russia for your own mistakes?

 

[jagjitnatt]

Typical Indian armed services answers of 1980's. Corruption is normal for service type guys. No big deal. That's a fact.

Why be shy to admit it?

Also, calling others corrupt don't show up your character as clean. Only Indian army type give such lame excuses. Such take it easy attitude is common in Indian army. They are okay with corruption. LOL!

Gorshkov refit was a total rip-off. Why you need pay for testing a skijump ? Is it some new technology Russia made first time? There is nothing new in it and design is already validated and tested.

Better make up new excuses because your answers suck bigtime. You are good at bluffing.

Also, Scorpene deal has nothing to do with Army. It was Navy. And, deal price went up because fools in Armed services didn't know how to settle and sign a proper legal deal. LOL!

Why blame the west and Russia when our own Indian armed services are full of corrupt morons? That doesn't make sense.

I have never seen such knee deep corruption in western armies. It laughable how you can even compare sucked up Indian army with western armies which are far more better disciplined and corruption is quite less compared to Indian armies.

If Indian Army is so bad, why don't you fix it Shaktiman??

Why cry?? Just beat up the bad guys.. Oh I forgot, the world is not Doordarshan

Your analysis is completely wrong.

Gorshkov needs to be tested, every system needs to be tested before induction. Do you Shivalik frigate inducted in April has been under testing phase and trials since past 7 years. The other two frigates are also under testing.

You were saying Indian Army has bought cheap spares? And now you're saying why test the carrier??

Hipocracy, isn't it?

Scorpene deal has been fixed at just the right price. It wasn't forced onto us. We bought it because that was the right deal.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Also, there is no point blaming Russia for Mig-21.

IAF neglected and dried up funds to HAL for 21 years and asked them close down aircraft R&D because they were living in lala-dreams and vodka girls at courtesy of import agents.

You are talking as if Indian service chiefs are some saints and angels. That's a joke.

When USSR broke, suddenly a bomb exploded under IAF's a$$ and they realized that they don't have a home-grown aircraft R&D programme! oh we are fucked! LOL!

That's what happens when armed services are run by brainy morons at top who earn for themselves and plan only short-term.

If Indian armed forces had brains, HAL would had never closed local R&D. Because funds were always there, but IAF never showed big committment to local R&D.

Why blame Russia for your own mistakes?

We never had the funds. R&D requires billions of dollars. We had nothing before 90s. If we had enough money, LCA, Arjun, Agni missiles would have been done in 80s or 90s itself.

 

[shaktiman2010]

If Indian Army is so bad, why don't you fix it Shaktiman??

Why cry?? Just beat up the bad guys.. Oh I forgot, the world is not Doordarshan

Your analysis is completely wrong

If my analysis is wrong, then prove it wrong dear. Stop whining and covering up corrupt ***** in Indian armed services.

We all know how much saints these morons are. And, your attempt to compare IAF with American standards is laughable.

By the way, you said western Armies are corrupt. Are you going to talk like a hollow monkey or going to show some proof too? LOL.

Gorshkov needs to be tested, every system needs to be tested before induction. Do you Shivalik frigate inducted in April has been under testing phase and trials since past 7 years. The other two frigates are also under testing.

You were saying Indian Army has bought cheap spares? And now you're saying why test the carrier??

Hipocracy, isn't it?

Scorpene deal has been fixed at just the right price. It wasn't forced onto us. We bought it because that was the right deal.

So, who sells without testing anyways?

And its foolish to pay a price for fixing up a junk, rather than buying a new one for same price. LOL!

Also, the problem was not high price but problem was that, agreement had enough loopholes which Russians exploited to jack up the prices.

Normally, when supplier delays the delivery, there are penalty clauses. How many such clauses Navy included in Gorshkov deal? LOL!

Scorpene was wrong because prices was changed after final agreement was signed. That shows how lax the Navy officials were when making original agreement.

If this is how every agreement is being done, then we will get first MRCA in 2019. LOL!

Now, that would be acceptable to you, of course. But, if Indian scientists delay some project by just 4 years, then army guys starts whining like kids.

Hypocrisy, isn't it?

Arjun MBT incident was a shame on Indian army. It exposed their corrupt generals in naked.

So, I don't think there is any other proof needed to show how prejudiced Indian armed services are towards home-grown products.

 

[shaktiman2010]

We never had the funds. R&D requires billions of dollars. We had nothing before 90s. If we had enough money, LCA, Arjun, Agni missiles would have been done in 80s or 90s itself.

Stop bluffing.

We always had funds and that's how imports went up each year.

Indian armed forces never gave focus on pushing home-grown projects in big way.

Same is excuse today - "We don't have enough funds for funding Kaveri, Arjun, AMCA. Please let's imports otherwise we will die".

IAF are imports hungry idiots. That's a reality. Funds are always there.

 

[shaktiman2010]

Jagjitnatt,

aren't you same guy who once said, "LCA was a big mistake to start in 1985. If its been started in 2000, it would been complete in 2010."

I know how you think. Its laughable. LOL.