An Insight into Al-Khalid II MBT.

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

I wonder if it would just be better for Pakistan to design a new tank from scratch, using the lessons learned from 30 years of Al-Khalid development. This tank is not going to be up to par against the latest Indian T-90s or their recently inducted Apache anti-tank helicopters. Those Apache numbers are likely to increase in the future too. The issue I think is that Pakistan did not actually design the Al-Khalid and it is a Chinese tank that we slapped on different engine and optics etc on it to customize it for our needs. However, has Pakistan done any research into creating its own armor to use in tank production, or even ERA plates? Most unlikely that it has been the case.
In the ideal world, Al-Khalid would be relegated to the role now being fulfilled with light tanks such as T-59s, T-69s, and T-85. And a new frontline tank is co-developed and produced for the next 20 years.

One other thing that I feel will not hold true in the future is this emphasis on mobility over protection. It worked through the 80s & 90s and up even in the 2000s. However, times have changed and so has technology. Where before speed was a good option to deny enemy tanks and guns a chance to track and shoot at your successfully, there has been a sea change in technology which makes tracking a moving target very easy, while being on the move yourself. That is why every advanced country that also faces technologically advanced foes have opted to induct heavier, up-armored tanks.

India will take a substantial lead in arms from us sooner or later and I think it would behove us to plan for the future and not rely entirely on past laurels. The next tank battles might not go in our favor if we dont have the right tools.

No need to reinvent the wheel. PA can either choose Altay with modifications or Type 99 from china again with Pakistan specific alterations. Problem with small batch production will always be higher cost and difficulty in procuring parts. Both China and Turkey will transfer technology and it will mean Pakistan will always have another source for parts, r&d for future upgrades and Pakistani input.

 

[GriffinsRule]

No need to reinvent the wheel. PA can either choose Altay with modifications or Type 99 from china again with Pakistan specific alterations. Problem with small batch production will always be higher cost and difficulty in procuring parts. Both China and Turkey will transfer technology and it will mean Pakistan will always have another source for parts, r&d for future upgrades and Pakistani input.

Yep, thats why I said co-develop, though I dont agree on just buying Altay or Type 99. We also dont have a small batch requirement but need to replace 800-1000 tanks over the long run. That is a lot of armor and hence the need to develop something with whichever partner is more suitable. We have seen Chinese and Ukranian tanks fail in trials, so why not make something from the grounds up to meet those specific operational needs. Its not the same as reinventing the wheel.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Yep, thats why I said co-develop, though I dont agree on just buying Altay or Type 99. We also dont have a small batch requirement but need to replace 800-1000 tanks over the long run. That is a lot of armor and hence the need to develop something with whichever partner is more suitable. We have seen Chinese and Ukranian tanks fail in trials, so why not make something from the grounds up to meet those specific operational needs. Its not the same as reinventing the wheel.

India has been at it for decades... that would be akin to throwing money at a problem. Something, Pakistan cannot and shouldn't do.
Both Chinese and now Turks are developing systems that were actually built and started elsewhere... there is years of research and sweat on these systems... Pakistan needs to iron out the deficiencies and modify according to it's needs. That would be a cheaper and more comprehensive solution.

 

[HRK]

The main point which I think was lost in the debate is that the protection and mobility both are dependent on availability of powerful tank engine, AK and AK-I though utilialize 1,200hp engine but provide 650+mm protection and if we add ERA and composite armour block on basic structure this configuration will give additional 250-300 mm protection, while keeping the weight upto 46-48 tonnes these figures are representing good armoured solution just compare basic figures of AK with any other 3rd generation tanks in similar weight class, AK series offer

- Protection
- Mobility
- Firepower

statistics competitive to any other 3 gen tank, except to those western tanks which offer heavy protection which mean heavier weight as well, but then backed by high horsepower engines, so as ask earlier 'currently' which 1,500 hp engine is available to Pakistan .... ???

Before to suggest Altay members should keep in mind that it use German engine, so IF acquired do they think Germans would not play politics under one or other fancy names .... ?? and supply would remain uniform without any hindrance .... ???

and those who are suggesting Type-99 series should first need to provide source that it is on offer for export, if not then the suggestion is invalid

So members a humble request before to suggest any new off the shelf acquisition plz keep some patiences, let AK-II get revealed by HIT which is under development all I can say is that it will be a 56+ tonnes class tank which will offer much superior protection than its counterpart in Indian Army with better mobility.

 

[GriffinsRule]

The main point which I think was lost in the debate is that the protection and mobility both are dependent on availability of powerful tank engine, AK and AK-I though utilialize 1,200hp engine but provide 650+mm protection and if we add ERA and composite armour block on basic structure this configuration will give additional 250-300 mm protection, while keeping the weight upto 46-48 tonnes these figures are representing good armoured solution just compare basic figures of AK with any other 3rd generation tanks in similar weight class, AK series offer

- Protection
- Mobility
- Firepower

statistics competitive to any other 3 gen tank, except to those western tanks which offer heavy protection which mean heavier weight as well, but then backed by high horsepower engines, so as ask earlier 'currently' which 1,500 hp engine is available to Pakistan .... ???

Before to suggest Altay members should keep in mind that it use German engine, so IF acquired do they think Germans would not play politics under one or other fancy names .... ?? and supply would remain uniform without any hindrance .... ???

and those who are suggesting Type-99 series should first need to provide source that it is on offer for export, if not then the suggestion is invalid

So members a humble request before to suggest any new off the shelf acquisition plz keep some patiences, let AK-II get revealed by HIT which is under development all I can say is that it will be a 56+ tonnes class tank which will offer much superior protection than its counterpart in Indian Army with better mobility.

How about mating two 800hp engines! Similar to what BMW 850cs had back in the day. Two straight six engines slapped together at a 60degree angle to produce the company's first 12 cylinder!

No idea how complex this problem is to solve, but there's always a solution to any problem out there. Might require some out of the box thinking and taking risks.

Actually just occurred to me that why can't we have two engines powering a tank? Seems like a reasonable idea for redundancy as well as improved power and adding armor. Aircraft, helicopters, boats etc all have two to even three engines. So why not tanks? Any experts care to opine in?

 

[HRK]

How about mating two 800hp engines! Similar to what BMW 850cs had back in the day. Two straight six engines slapped together at a 60degree angle to produce the company's first 12 cylinder!

No idea how complex this problem is to solve, but there's always a solution to any problem out there. Might require some out of the box thinking and taking risks.

I too in past many years thought on these lines and then prefered the idea of having W-engines configuration for PA tanks, but on practical grounds as we don't have engine manufacturing technology and no other country is offering engine for tanks in this configuration, but mostly offering V configuration engines they must have some good reason for this not known to us.

So on practical grounds I drop this idea for further thinking and refinement .....

Actually just occurred to me that why can't we have two engines powering a tank? Seems like a reasonable idea for redundancy as well as improved power and adding armor. Aircraft, helicopters, boats etc all have two to even three engines. So why not tanks? Any experts care to opine in?

Actually placing two seperate engine in a single tank would increase the dimension of tanks too much which would affect transportability and mobility of the tank which mean even if we change all of the infracture of Tanks transport we will still have a tank who mobility and turning capability especially in tight space would be compromised due to increase dimensions.

Another factor which will increase threat to that tanks would the visibility which will be increase due new dimensions, this will indirectly affect protection of the purposed Tank, additionally If you remember Russian Tanks and other tanks based on russian philosophy of tank building appear short and bit compact than their western counterparts because of this reason.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Both, type 99 and Altay are on offer to Pakistan.

https://defence.pk/pdf/index.php?threads/403766/

Altay will have an inhouse 1800hp engine start from the 3rd 250 tank batch. Besides Pakistan has previously stuck with both Chinese and Ukrainian tanks... and all three could be source of future procurement or assembly/manufacture. With Type 99 around 500 and 250 each of Altay and oplot.

 

[echo 1]

I found this Video from Red Effect he is very knowledgeable about everything tank ranging from armor, firepower, mobility, etc. I find his videos very informative. Here are three (Al-Khalid, Chinese Tanks, and Arjun MBT) that everyone can learn from. I did not look before but if these have been posted before so apologize in advance if they have already been posted.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

counterpart

The latest T90 of Indian Army?

 

[HRK]

The latest T90 of Indian Army?

yaap ....

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

The latest T90 of Indian Army?

They bought AM variant not sure though.

I found this Video from Red Effect he is very knowledgeable about everything tank ranging from armor, firepower, mobility, etc. I find his videos very informative. Here are three (Al-Khalid, Chinese Tanks, and Arjun MBT) that everyone can learn from. I did not look before but if these have been posted before so apologize in advance if they have already been posted.

Debunked.

 

[Tipu7]

Both, type 99 and Altay are on offer to Pakistan.

https://defence.pk/pdf/index.php?threads/403766/

Altay will have an inhouse 1800hp engine start from the 3rd 250 tank batch. Besides Pakistan has previously stuck with both Chinese and Ukrainian tanks... and all three could be source of future procurement or assembly/manufacture. With Type 99 around 500 and 250 each of Altay and oplot.

Pakistan is neither interested in Type 99 nor in Altay.

They bought AM variant not sure

MS. Though a source suggests that Indian T90MS will be a downgraded variant. So expect some new crazy title for India specific variant.
And There is no longer such thing as T-90AM. Russians now use the designation of T-90M.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Pakistan is neither interested in Type 99 nor in Altay.

MS. Though a source suggests that Indian T90MS will be a downgraded variant. So expect some new crazy title for India specific variant.
And There is no longer such thing as T-90AM. Russians now use the designation of T-90M.

is there any updates of AK-2 ?

 

[Dazzler]

Very interesting turret geometry... notice

- position of gunner and commander,

- gun mantlet

- position of optics,

- frontal and side armor, all look different.

for reference, here is the AK-1 turret

 

[Zulfiqar]

Very interesting turret geometry... notice

- position of gunner and commander,

- gun mantlet

- position of optics,

- frontal and side armor, all look different.

View attachment 598257


for reference, here is the AK-1 turret

View attachment 598258

If the first picture is of AK2 model then looking at gun mantlet it looks like AK2 has less armor at front. I may be wrong though. What do you think?