An Artist in Exile Tests India’s Democratic Ideals

[Goodperson]

India does not need certification from others on Secularism. Every country is honest with itself.

 

[Vinod2070]

Look, the guys who left India have no claim over India now. Their forefathers were Indian for thousands of years but once you decided to separate, you lost claim to that glorious inheritance especially given the way it happened.

They should rather look at their own countries and their problems and how India relates to that.

Why Indian domestic issues that don't effect others in any way should be of any interest?

 

[BanglaBhoot]

Before 1947 there was no India so what are you talking about?

 

[daredevil]

Before 1947 there was no India so what are you talking about?

When earth was born, nothing was there. Everything evolved over the course of time and there are things still evolving. Before India, Bangladesh was not there. Before England, America was not there. Everything evolves, Just like India did.

And things that doesn't adapt and evolve, will just perish.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

The British Raj evolved into India, Pakistan and then Bangladesh.

 

[daredevil]

The British Raj evolved into India, Pakistan and then Bangladesh.

Exactly. Now, who is doing better among these in terms of being secular?.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

What has this to do with the thread?

The issue is that India pretends to have copied (rather than evolved) the secularist ideal form the British but in fact just beneath the skin it is a Hindu Brahmin. Nothing wrong in that but India should peel of the skin and show its true identity.

 

[daredevil]

What has this to do with the thread?

The issue is that India pretends to have copied (rather than evolved) the secularist ideal form the British but in fact just beneath the skin it is a Hindu Brahmin. Nothing wrong in that but India should peel of the skin and show its true identity.

May be I was not specific. I meant who among those is more secular.

Again you are obfuscating the matter. Just for your clarity I'm spoon-feeding you this one time.

Who is the PM of India - MMS - a sikh (neither a hindu nor a Brahmin)
Who is the current President - Pratibha Patil (not a Brahmin)
Who was the last president of India - APJ Abdul Kalam (neither a hindu nor a Brahmin)
Who is the president of Congress I - Sonia Gandhi (not even a Indian to start with.)
Who is the Defence Minster of India - AK Antony (neither a Hindu nor a Brahmin)
CM of Uttar Pradesh - Mayawati (a dalit)

I can go on...

If India was not a secular country, why would it install people from different religions and non-brahmin castes in such important positions.

Even now, if you don't get the point. I give up. I don't want to stoop to your level.

 

[Vinod2070]

Before 1947 there was no India so what are you talking about?

Kharbuje ko dekh kar Kharbuja rang badala.

Do you have any identity before 1947, before the arrival of Islam itself?

What is that identity?

 

[Imran Khan]

Who is the PM of India - MMS - a sikh (neither a hindu nor a Brahmin)
Who is the current President - Pratibha Patil (not a Brahmin)
Who was the last president of India - APJ Abdul Kalam (neither a hindu nor a Brahmin)
Who is the president of Congress I - Sonia Gandhi (not even a Indian to start with.)
Who is the Defence Minster of India - AK Antony (neither a Hindu nor a Brahmin)
CM of Uttar Pradesh - Mayawati (a dalit)

Thats mean always others rule on india realy hindus not able to control india ?

 

[Vinod2070]

^^ Is that what you also feel about USA now?

Its called equality of opportunity for all citizens irrespective of your creed.

 

[daredevil]

Thats mean always others rule on india realy hindus not able to control india ?

Any one can rule india, irrespective of religion, cast, creed or skin color (provided they are indian citizens). Indian constitution gives equal rights to all of its citizens and uphold them too. Not like How Mr. Munshi is trying to paint India here.

 

[third eye]

Thats mean always others rule on india realy hindus not able to control india ?

That is a very uneducated remark. India is ruled by Indians. Caste, religion etc does not matter.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

I was just wondering whether the Obama effect will come to India. I mean will there ever be a Muslim PM of India or even a Muslim COAS?

The question should be does this really matter. If you peel away America's skin what do you have?

Will Obama truly be able to pull America away from those that really call the shots i.e. Jewish lobby and white protestant Americans or WASPS. I guess we can be glad the the US has taken the first step. You never know there may even be a Muslim President one day. That would be probably several decades before India has its first Muslim PM if ever.

A Muslim PM For India?

Obama's success calls for introspection on how we treat minorities ...

Dipankar Gupta

After the victory of Barack Obama, democracy has again raised its head with considerable swagger. It is true that a dream has been realised in America, and for democracy worldwide. Naturally, comparisons abound, and it has set people thinking everywhere if they could do an Obama in their country too. In India the question that comes up is, who can conceivably be our next Obama? Will it be a Muslim? Or will it be a member of the scheduled caste?

Of the two, religion is a more difficult hurdle to cross.

We might manage a scheduled caste prime minister, but a Muslim? That is another matter. The reason simply is that we easily equate Muslims with Pakistan, and given the recent history of confrontation between the two countries, this reflex thought is not about to vanish in a hurry.

For many old-timers, the Partition still remains a painful wound. As BJP politics depends on this as a stable source of symbolic energy, it is constantly revived at critical junctures. One might even say that Partition is the BJP's birthmark. To make matters worse, misplaced secular scholarship has made writings on the Partition a veritable industry. This keeps the old wound open and fresh hurt is constantly rubbed into it.

In recent years, thanks to George W. Bush, Islamic anger the world over has re-energised the paranoia among most Hindus in India. I have heard grown people agonise over how global warming would sink Bangladesh and flood our country with all those Muslims. That is the level of fear psychosis among a broad band of Hindus. The blasts in Bangalore, Delhi and Ahmedabad only sharpen their bigotry.

The reason why it is easier to elect a scheduled caste PM is because members of these communities were never seen as outsiders to the Indian nation-state. They suffered a hundred social disabilities, but they were always seen as Indians, often, even Hindus. This is not nearly as true in the way the majority perceives the Muslims in this country. This truth may stick in the throat, but that is the way it is.

Politics in India has always paid attention to scheduled castes in terms of their demands for mobility, as well as in terms of their specific concerns regarding justice. Seats are reserved for them and there are specifically designed laws that punish those who commit caste atrocities. These laws are stringent, for the onus of proof lies with the accused.

Post-Independent India may not have made stunning advances, but discrimination against scheduled castes has lost much of its sting in our villages. This has not happened because we have become less caste-conscious, a look at the matrimonial columns will prove that, but because caste is no longer the absolute determinant of the rural power hierarchy. As land has been so severely fragmented, most cultivators are too poor to exercise hegemony over anybody. This is why scheduled caste politics has emerged as such a potent force in recent years.

With the Muslims, it is different. No matter how many Muslim trophy representatives occupy high office, it is nearly always a matter of patronage. As we have had a Muslim president, several heads of commissions, governors, and so on, it gives the impression that the past and Partition are truly forgotten. Even if we were half-way to that kind of amnesia, Kashmir and international jehad will help stoke those memories in our political lives.

If India is to truly take a lead from Obama's phenomenal success, then the test really lies in how we treat our Muslims. A major reason why minorities in the US feel good about their country is because the rule of law applies to all citizens. No matter how prejudiced someone may be at heart, the moment it is expressed, the law steps in.When a Sikh was mistakenly killed after 9/11 in America, the sentence given to the accused was the harshest possible.

In India, on the contrary, killers of the post-Godhra carnage are still at large. Given this background, it is difficult for Muslims to have a feel for what it is to be a citizen. A crime against a scheduled caste has a greater chance of being punished than one against Muslims. The National Commission on SCs and STs has noted that there has been a near 50 per cent rise in the number of convictions in cases of caste atrocities between 1991 and 2001. The same cannot be said for attacks on religious minorities.

So before we ask, when will we get our Obama, let us apply the laws of the land so that Muslims are treated as full citizens. This will, of course, change the attitudes of many Muslims, but the best part is that it will make Hindus better citizens.

A Muslim PM For India? : outlookindia.com

 

[donrahul]

I was just wondering whether the Obama effect will come to India. I mean will there ever be a Muslim PM of India or even a Muslim COAS?

The question should be does this really matter. If you peel away America's skin what do you have?

Will Obama truly be able to pull America away from those that really call the shots i.e. Jewish lobby and white protestant Americans or WASPS. I guess we can be glad the the US has taken the first step. You never know there may even be a Muslim President one day. That would be probably several decades before India has its first Muslim PM if ever.

A Muslim PM For India?

Obama's success calls for introspection on how we treat minorities ...

Dipankar Gupta

After the victory of Barack Obama, democracy has again raised its head with considerable swagger. It is true that a dream has been realised in America, and for democracy worldwide. Naturally, comparisons abound, and it has set people thinking everywhere if they could do an Obama in their country too. In India the question that comes up is, who can conceivably be our next Obama? Will it be a Muslim? Or will it be a member of the scheduled caste?

Of the two, religion is a more difficult hurdle to cross.

We might manage a scheduled caste prime minister, but a Muslim? That is another matter. The reason simply is that we easily equate Muslims with Pakistan, and given the recent history of confrontation between the two countries, this reflex thought is not about to vanish in a hurry.

For many old-timers, the Partition still remains a painful wound. As BJP politics depends on this as a stable source of symbolic energy, it is constantly revived at critical junctures. One might even say that Partition is the BJP's birthmark. To make matters worse, misplaced secular scholarship has made writings on the Partition a veritable industry. This keeps the old wound open and fresh hurt is constantly rubbed into it.

In recent years, thanks to George W. Bush, Islamic anger the world over has re-energised the paranoia among most Hindus in India. I have heard grown people agonise over how global warming would sink Bangladesh and flood our country with all those Muslims. That is the level of fear psychosis among a broad band of Hindus. The blasts in Bangalore, Delhi and Ahmedabad only sharpen their bigotry.

The reason why it is easier to elect a scheduled caste PM is because members of these communities were never seen as outsiders to the Indian nation-state. They suffered a hundred social disabilities, but they were always seen as Indians, often, even Hindus. This is not nearly as true in the way the majority perceives the Muslims in this country. This truth may stick in the throat, but that is the way it is.

Politics in India has always paid attention to scheduled castes in terms of their demands for mobility, as well as in terms of their specific concerns regarding justice. Seats are reserved for them and there are specifically designed laws that punish those who commit caste atrocities. These laws are stringent, for the onus of proof lies with the accused.

Post-Independent India may not have made stunning advances, but discrimination against scheduled castes has lost much of its sting in our villages. This has not happened because we have become less caste-conscious, a look at the matrimonial columns will prove that, but because caste is no longer the absolute determinant of the rural power hierarchy. As land has been so severely fragmented, most cultivators are too poor to exercise hegemony over anybody. This is why scheduled caste politics has emerged as such a potent force in recent years.

With the Muslims, it is different. No matter how many Muslim trophy representatives occupy high office, it is nearly always a matter of patronage. As we have had a Muslim president, several heads of commissions, governors, and so on, it gives the impression that the past and Partition are truly forgotten. Even if we were half-way to that kind of amnesia, Kashmir and international jehad will help stoke those memories in our political lives.

If India is to truly take a lead from Obama's phenomenal success, then the test really lies in how we treat our Muslims. A major reason why minorities in the US feel good about their country is because the rule of law applies to all citizens. No matter how prejudiced someone may be at heart, the moment it is expressed, the law steps in.When a Sikh was mistakenly killed after 9/11 in America, the sentence given to the accused was the harshest possible.

In India, on the contrary, killers of the post-Godhra carnage are still at large. Given this background, it is difficult for Muslims to have a feel for what it is to be a citizen. A crime against a scheduled caste has a greater chance of being punished than one against Muslims. The National Commission on SCs and STs has noted that there has been a near 50 per cent rise in the number of convictions in cases of caste atrocities between 1991 and 2001. The same cannot be said for attacks on religious minorities.

So before we ask, when will we get our Obama, let us apply the laws of the land so that Muslims are treated as full citizens. This will, of course, change the attitudes of many Muslims, but the best part is that it will make Hindus better citizens.

A Muslim PM For India? : outlookindia.com

The very fact, that you are able to quote something against India, comment about India from an Indian magazine, is ample proof, that my country is a democratic nation with freedom to the press. Further the question of a Muslim PM being raised in a widely read magazine strengthens the fact, that there is a large section of people who really dont mind a Muslim PM and are in fact welcoming such a move to reinforce the concept of Secularism.

Can you dare do that in your Country or in an Islamic Republic??