An Artist in Exile Tests India’s Democratic Ideals

[daredevil]

After going through this thread, I cannot but marvel at the literary skullduggery of some of our Bhaaratiya posters.

They are upset and incensed, and have taken offense to an artists depiction of their Gods. These sorts of people have attacked his house, vandalised his home and burnt art galleries that house his painting. And on other online forums these same sorts of people have called for the said artist's punishment, even death.

While at the same time, arguing that Bharat has a 'secular' duty to protect writers like Tasleema, who are deemed as offensive by a religious minority.

If this is not Hypocrisy, then I do not know what Hypocrisy is. If these are not Hypocrites, then there is no Hypocrite on earth.

The Republic of India is in essence a 'Hindu State', masquerading as a 'secular' republic. You're just upset that we're pulling this facade off your faces.

darkStar, If I remember correctly, after I have posted his paintings of godesses, you have replied that what he did is wrong. Then you have deleted that reply and now you are posting this. So much for your double standards and Hypocrisy.

 

[Goodperson]

Why don't Bangladesh invite Taslim back it could even provide a route through Pardon, We don't need her.
Its amusing to see their interest in Hussein who infact has no legal or political problems in returning.

 

[daredevil]

The contradictions do not just end there - 'use brute force in Kashmir', 'forcibly remove everyone who disagrees to Pakistan', 'settle the land with immigrants from outside Kashmir to make them a minority' - all of these draconian and intolerant ideas, and advocates for them, abound in the 'tolerant and largest democracy of the world'.

It is all justified of course, under the ambit of some irrational nationalism and Pakistan hatred (how ironic, from the drum beaters of 'rationalist thinking, post-enlightenment philosophy') driving the occupation and annexation of a people and their land, against all legal and international obligations (IoA conditional to a plebiscite and the UNSC resolutions requiring a referendum).

You are completely off on this. Remember article 370. It doesn't allow outsiders to buy lands in Kashmir. Coming to your issue of settling the land with immigrants, when did it happen, who are those immigrants. Are you forgetting 'Ethnical Cleansing of Kashmiri pandits'. Indeed, no where in the world it happens that people of the majority section has to live as refugees in their own country.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

I write a reasoned reply in post #180 and I get a inane response in post #182.

Are the words getting too long for you to read and comprehend ......?

 

[daredevil]

Finally the admission I have been looking for or as darkstar puts it -

"The Republic of India is in essence a 'Hindu State', masquerading as a 'secular' republic. You're just upset that we're pulling this facade off your faces."

This is exactly my point. The Indians have failed to address this dichotomy and ideological contradiction in their world view.

If your judgement was with a neutral thinking I would accept. But all that you have posted is stemming only out of hatred towards India.

If Republic of India is a 'Hindu State', there should have been an ethnical cleansing, like it happens in our neighboring countries, but it didn't happen in India. So much for your tolerance.

 

[Goodperson]

I write a reasoned reply in post #180 and I get a inane response in post #182.

Are the words getting too long for you to read and comprehend ......?

My reply is in line with the topic its not personally against any poster.

Talking of Hussein India artiste fraternity has expressed solidarity with him since long,
Similarly I do request Bangladesh writer fraternity to show solidarity with Taslima.

 

[Vinod2070]

darkStar, If I remember correctly, after I have posted his paintings of godesses, you have replied that what he did is wrong. Then you have deleted that reply and now you are posting this. So much for your double standards and Hypocrisy.

And then this:

I would agree with vindoh and flintock, if you're governement and courts think the same. It would be a bit disingenuous for us "outsiders" to go around lording it over Bharatiyas, over an issue that their supreme court has been so outspoken about.

So how do DS's own words match up with the subsequent posts?

People have tied themselves all over in knots over a non-issue.

 

[daredevil]

And then this:



So how do DS's own words match up with the subsequent posts?

People have tied themselves all over in knots over a non-issue.

I think DS is going through some kind of self-conflict-ion, to be reasonable or to be anti-india. The earlier he sorts this out, the better for him to discuss these things.

 

[DarkStar]

darkStar, If I remember correctly, after I have posted his paintings of godesses, you have replied that what he did is wrong. Then you have deleted that reply and now you are posting this. So much for your double standards and Hypocrisy.

The issue is not wether what he did was wrong, or offensive. It probably is offensive to many Hindus.

But the point that I and Munshi sahab have been stressing is that if as a country and people, Bharat is going to take offense at such things, then it should stop pretenses and admit to being a Hindu state.

One cannot be the 'drumbeater' of secularism, and then demand censorship of this kind.

No opportunity is lost by Bharatiyas, to lord over us in terms of secularism and tolerance. We are forever lectured about the so called 'values' that Bharatiyas cherish so much. But when push comes to shove, it figures that Bharatiyas are just as 'intolerant' as us 'backward' muslims seem to you.

I would stand shoulder to shoulder to you, and protest myself over M.F.Hussain's art, if Bharatiyas were to do the same regarding Tasleema Nasreen.

Let the Republic of INdia declare its Hindu credentials. Pakistan and BD certainly do not have any false pretenses in this regard. We are what we say we are.

The problem is, you guys want to have your cake too, and eat it. 'Chit bhi meri, patt bhi meri'.

 

[Goodperson]

Secularism is generally the assertion that governmental practices or institutions should exist separately from religion or religious beliefs.
Hussein is practicing his religion few people took offense to his paintings However Government and Courts have ruled in favor of Hussain Artiste community has supported him It seems he is afraid of some kid at the corner of some street to return.

Just Google and find tons for protest in India against Taslima, You will find articles wherein Taslima herself is accusing India.

Whether to follow Secularism is not Pakistan's or Bangladesh problem. Why preach something which you yourself cannot follow.

 

[donrahul]

The issue is not wether what he did was wrong, or offensive. It probably is offensive to many Hindus.

But the point that I and Munshi sahab have been stressing is that if as a country and people, Bharat is going to take offense at such things, then it should stop pretenses and admit to being a Hindu state.

One cannot be the 'drumbeater' of secularism, and then demand censorship of this kind.

No opportunity is lost by Bharatiyas, to lord over us in terms of secularism and tolerance. We are forever lectured about the so called 'values' that Bharatiyas cherish so much. But when push comes to shove, it figures that Bharatiyas are just as 'intolerant' as us 'backward' muslims seem to you.

I would stand shoulder to shoulder to you, and protest myself over M.F.Hussain's art, if Bharatiyas were to do the same regarding Tasleema Nasreen.

Let the Republic of INdia declare its Hindu credentials. Pakistan and BD certainly do not have any false pretenses in this regard. We are what we say we are.

The problem is, you guys want to have your cake too, and eat it. 'Chit bhi meri, patt bhi meri'.

I dunno where is the difficulty to assimilate a simple fact which has been repeated by people here in this thread(No Personal attacks or adoloscent insinuations here)
Secularism is a concept where in all people are treated equal irrespective of their religion, caste or background by the State
Secularism is represented by the state and not by an individual person. Remember when Germany was Fascist, there was there so many people who dint approve the Fascist principles of the state, but Fascism was a policy adopted by the people who represented the state of Germany. Similarly Secularism is a concept which the Government of India follows. The Government does not create policy in a non-secular fashion as is evident. In fact, our Government goes to the other extreme to appease the minority(the Haj pilgrim subsidy & the journalists are being more than a watchdog and any police encounter of a terrorist who is a muslim is criticized irrespective of the ground truths.

But it does not mean that the average citizen is secular. An orthodox hindu merchant may not employ muslim youth. or an orthodox muslim person may not employ a hindu youth in his corner shop.. the reason could be religious or just sympathy towards a person of same religion.. So when an artist draws a God in bad light, he will be criticized and subject to this kinda treatment by the irritated individuals or the groups, but not by the government. This act by the individuals does not represent that of the Government's Which is in fact is not opposing the artist's description of the God in poor light..

 

[Flintlock]

The issue is not wether what he did was wrong, or offensive. It probably is offensive to many Hindus.

But the point that I and Munshi sahab have been stressing is that if as a country and people, Bharat is going to take offense at such things, then it should stop pretenses and admit to being a Hindu state.

The people of Bharat are free to take offence at anything they like. What matters is the opinion of the Government. I think the opinion of the government is quite clear, and quite secular.

One cannot be the 'drumbeater' of secularism, and then demand censorship of this kind.

Who demanded censorship?

In any case, secularism can be interpreted in a number of ways, and sometimes restrictions are imposed in order to protect social order and harmony.
It is quite clear that the treatment of those who offend hindu as well as muslim sensibilities is pretty much the same.

No opportunity is lost by Bharatiyas, to lord over us in terms of secularism and tolerance. We are forever lectured about the so called 'values' that Bharatiyas cherish so much. But when push comes to shove, it figures that Bharatiyas are just as 'intolerant' as us 'backward' muslims seem to you.

And where did you get that ? Also, I do enjoy the way in which you generalize the numerous opinions of 1.1 billion people.

I would stand shoulder to shoulder to you, and protest myself over M.F.Hussain's art, if Bharatiyas were to do the same regarding Tasleema Nasreen.

The people of Bharat, by which I mean the muslims of Bharat, have already protested against Taslima Nasreen's writing. They have issued death threats against her and attacked her person on one occasion.
M F Hussain's art shows have been vandalized a couple of times by Bharatiyas and death threats have been made against him as well.
Now that you know Bharatiyas have protested against both these people, are you willing to "stand shoulder to shoulder" and protest with them?

Let the Republic of INdia declare its Hindu credentials. Pakistan and BD certainly do not have any false pretenses in this regard. We are what we say we are.

You really are a funny guy. India is not pretending to be anything.India is, however, striving to be a number of things.

If the people of India change their mind and decide to transform into a Hindu state, rest assured, you will be the first one to know of it.

The problem is, you guys want to have your cake too, and eat it. 'Chit bhi meri, patt bhi meri'.

The problem, infact, is that you call India's imperfections "pretensions" and refer to your own with words such as "striving" etc.

And yet you have the impudence to call all Bharat's 1.1 billion people hypocrites.

 

[Vinod2070]

Well the fact remains that you guys are following a "perfect" system and anything less than a "perfect" outcome is unacceptable and calls into question the system itself.

We are following a man-made system that can always improve. So yes, it is open to criticism and evolution.

You don't have any of these options open. You closed the doors on them eons ago.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

India can be whatever it wants but it should be honest about it rather than putting up pretenses.

 

[daredevil]

India can be whatever it wants but it should be honest about it rather than putting up pretenses.

People here have given ample examples of what India is, but you still don't get the point. India doesn't need certificates from so called honest and unpretentious guys.