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American attack aftermath: Pakistan declares attack a 'plot'

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Vcheng,

Where did you disappear man------.

The reasonthey retunred was because pak millitary did not show real concern---if there was real concern shown---it would have resulted in pak air force making a couple of rounds of the area---but guess what---most of pak air force is blind at night--now isn't that true---.

you wish you had paid for those rafales in 2003 and taken delivery by 2007---or the grippens and taken delivery by the same time---at least you had the whole of 60 planes ready and equipped to do the right job at the right time---.

Now you only have the blk52 F16 and a wannabe JF 17 that is still going through trials and integration---you know--in my middle age---I can't even tear my hair off---because I have lost most of them---I can even cry for I have become senseless towards the incompetence of my millitary forces.

Pak millitary is always a dollar short and a day late in preparing to meet the inevitable.
 
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Is Afghanistan an enemy state ? Why to give civil transit to it?
Afghan were so happy on the death of Pakistani soldiers , why should Pakistan feed them, as they grow nothing except drugs.

US will try to bully its way out but for a long war even they don't have any money.
 
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You are right but i am still not able to come up with terms of a possible objective of USA by a blatant attack on PA if not a mistake...can you help???

How can you call it a mistake? We are not living in stone age raj and specially more so when we talk about the US of A which has all the modern gadgetry at its disposal. Things like these don't happen due to mistake. This was no mistake, this was a well planned message delivered "either you are with us or against us"
You can continue to look the other way and look for explanations and reasons where none exists but there is no doubt in our mind the motives behind the attack. US wanted Pakistan to attack Haqqani, Pakistanis are dumb but not that dumb, not to understand the consequences of such an act to Pakistans stability and future. Hence this.
Now that the reputation of the army is in question which hasn't happened for a very long time in Pakistan, no matter how much corrupt the generals really are, they are not going to lose face in the public and hence the legitimacy of Pakistans higher defense spending compared to health and education, i was reading the todays newspaper. Kyani has given orders to the PA to use all resources to hit back to any such attack. Now i am not actually buying this, but then again as mentioned above, the generals won't lose face both in public and in the lower ranks of the army.
 
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Is Afghanistan an enemy state ? Why to give civil transit to it?
Afghan were so happy on the death of Pakistani soldiers , why should Pakistan feed them, as they grow nothing except drugs.

US will try to bully its way out but for a long war even they don't have any money.

They are one thankless nation / country on this earth.
 
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Finally Thanks GOD Kiyani showed guts and allowed troops to hit back yes now if any attack Nato can expect horrible response from us this is should be enough of warning for Nato
 
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This is what the WSJ article says:

Pakistani officials at a border coordination center gave the go-ahead to American airstrikes that inadvertently killed 24 Pakistan troops, unaware that their own forces were in the area, according to U.S. officials briefed on the preliminary investigation.


According to the initial U.S. account from the field, the commandos requested airstrikes against the encampment, prompting the team to contact a joint border-control center to determine whether Pakistani forces were in the area, a U.S. official said.

the U.S. and Afghan forces conducting the Nov. 26 commando operation hadn't notified the center in advance that they planned to strike Taliban insurgents near that part of the border, the official said.

When called, the Pakistani representatives at the center said there were no Pakistani military forces in the area identified by the commandos, clearing the way for the Americans to conduct the airstrikes, the U.S. officials said.

Officials in Islamabad couldn't be reached to comment on the U.S. allegations.

"If you hear American helicopters why would you lob mortars and machine gun fire at them? The Pakistanis can say we thought it was insurgents, except for the fact that the Taliban doesn't have helicopters," said the U.S. official.

Apparently, when fired at the copter, the NATO forces went back and communicated with the Pakistani command to ascertain the presence of the troops. Per their claims, after receiving a response in the negative, they took the posts to be those of the Taliban, and went ahead with the attack with full force.

And here's the flame:

...other officials argued that it was premature for Mr. Obama to intervene so publicly given continued uncertainty about what exactly transpired.

Republican candidates for the White House often accuse Mr. Obama of being too quick to apologize for U.S. actions.

"There was, obviously, no apology, and there was an expression of condolences," said White House Press Secretary Jay Carney, noting that the investigation into the incident was "at the early stages."

The only line that may come out now will be... "What we've got here... is failure to communicate".
 
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Defence analyst Lt General (Retd) Abdul Qayum was of the view that local commanders will now not have to seek approval from their chain of command to return fire at the Nato fighter planes if they carry out “hostile manoeuvres on our soil.”


so will PAF protect Pakistan on West borders ?? Local commanders can ask PAF retailiate??



Kiyani speak BS lies again to satisfy audiences??


There is no need to 'ask' PAF to retaliate.....they are the ones with the eyes on the horizon...they should respond automatically and ask the intruding forces to move back, land or be shot down.

Simple.....and thats the Standard Operating Procedure.....for most of the nations.

Remember the Hainan island incident...
 
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Pakistan Was Consulted Before Fatal Hit, U.S. Says
Deadly Border Strike Came After Forces Were Told Area Was Clear of Pakistani Troops, Officials Sa
By JULIAN E. BARNES and ADAM ENTOUS

WASHINGTON—Pakistani officials at a border coordination center gave the go-ahead to American airstrikes that inadvertently killed 24 Pakistan troops, unaware that their own forces were in the area, according to U.S. officials briefed on the preliminary investigation.

U.S. officials, giving their first detailed explanation of the worst friendly-fire incident of the 10-year-old war in Afghanistan, said an Afghan-led assault force that included American commandos were hunting Taliban militants when they came under fire from an encampment along the Afghan-Pakistan border.

The commandos thought they were being fired upon by militants. But the assailants turned out to be Pakistani military personnel who had established a temporary campsite, U.S. officials said.

According to the initial U.S. account from the field, the commandos requested airstrikes against the encampment, prompting the team to contact a joint border-control center to determine whether Pakistani forces were in the area, a U.S. official said.

The border-control center is manned by U.S., Afghan and Pakistani representatives who are supposed to share information and head off conflicts. But the U.S. and Afghan forces conducting the Nov. 26 commando operation hadn't notified the center in advance that they planned to strike Taliban insurgents near that part of the border, the official said.

When called, the Pakistani representatives at the center said there were no Pakistani military forces in the area identified by the commandos, clearing the way for the Americans to conduct the airstrikes, the U.S. officials said.

Officials in Islamabad couldn't be reached to comment on the U.S. allegations. Pakistan repeatedly has denied its forces fired on the Americans.

Pakistan doesn't have veto authority over strikes along the border, U.S. officials said. But the North Atlantic Treaty Organization makes contact with the center to make sure its operations don't put Pakistani troops or aircraft in the line of fire.

U.S. officials acknowledge there were errors made on both sides in the incident, which occurred in the Mohmand tribal region, a lawless border area that abuts Afghanistan's eastern Kunar province. They have called the Pakistani deaths a terrible accident. "There were lots of mistakes made," the official said. "There was not good situational awareness to who was where and who was doing what."

To prevent conflicts, officials working in the border-control center need to know whether NATO forces are planning operations in the border area. That allows the Pakistanis to notify its forces that the U.S. and Afghan forces would be operating there.

But U.S. officials have in the past expressed reservations about notifying the Pakistanis about operations, concerned the missions' details could leak out.

The U.S. officials cautioned the latest account is based mainly on interviews with members of the commando team and could change as more information is gathered.

A formal report on the incident is due to be completed by U.S. military investigators by Dec. 23. Officials said that investigation could incorporate overhead imagery and information collected from the aircraft that struck the Pakistani position.

"Our view on this will not be complete until we've completed the investigation," a senior official said.
The incident resulted in another major setback to U.S.-Pakistan relations. In response, Pakistan has pulled out of an international conference on the Afghan war in Bonn, Germany, next week. Islamabad also has closed border crossings used by the U.S. and its NATO allies to bring in supplies for troops in neighboring Afghanistan.

Pakistani officials said earlier this week the attack on their base, known as Volcano, began just after midnight. About 50 minutes after the air assault began, Pakistani officials reached the NATO command in Afghanistan and told officials to call off the strikes, they said.

In addition to the strike on the border base, Pakistani officials said reinforcements trying to aid the stricken base also were hit by the airstrikes.

Pakistani military personnel in a second base began firing at the American helicopters. According to the Pakistani account, the helicopters flew off, then returned and struck the second post.

A senior Pakistani military officer said it was impossible for the U.S. not to know it was firing at Pakistani military bases.

U.S. officials countered that the Pakistani positions were more like makeshift campsites than established military bases. A U.S. official said that because the Taliban and Pakistani military use some of the same weaponry, it was difficult to tell who was firing at the assault force.

"There was absolutely no malicious, deliberate attack on the Pakistani military posts," a U.S. defense official said.

Other American officials said the Pakistani military should have known from the presence of helicopters used to ferry in the combined U.S.-Afghan commando force that Americans were in the area.

"If you hear American helicopters why would you lob mortars and machine gun fire at them? The Pakistanis can say we thought it was insurgents, except for the fact that the Taliban doesn't have helicopters," said the U.S. official.

The White House has decided, at least for now, against having President Barack Obama issue a video message offering condolences for the Pakistani deaths, officials said. The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan and other State Department officials had recommended such a video message to try to ease tensions between Washington and Islamabad over the incident.

But other officials argued that it was premature for Mr. Obama to intervene so publicly given continued uncertainty about what exactly transpired.

Republican candidates for the White House often accuse Mr. Obama of being too quick to apologize for U.S. actions.

"There was, obviously, no apology, and there was an expression of condolences," said White House Press Secretary Jay Carney, noting that the investigation into the incident was "at the early stages."

—Tom Wright in New Delhi contributed to this article.

---------- Post added at 09:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 AM ----------

US suspects NATO forces lured into deadly raid

ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON: NATO forces may have been lured into attacking friendly Pakistani border posts in a calculated maneuver by the Taliban, according to preliminary U.S. military reports on the deadliest friendly fire incident with Pakistan since the Afghanistan war began.

The NATO airstrike killed 24 Pakistani soldiers over the weekend in an apparent case of mistaken identity, The Associated Press has learned.

A joint U.S.-Afghan patrol was attacked by the Taliban early Saturday morning. While pursuing the enemy in the poorly marked border area, the patrol seems to have mistaken one of the Pakistan troop outposts for a militant encampment and called in a NATO gunship and attack helicopters to open fire.

U.S. officials say the reports suggest the Taliban may have deliberately tried to provoke a cross-border firefight that would set back fragile partnerships between the U.S. and NATO forces and Pakistani soldiers at the ill-defined border. Officials described the records on condition of anonymity to discuss classified matters.

A Pakistani woman joins other to condemn NATO strikes on Pakistani posts, in Peshawar, Pakistan on Monday, Nov. 28, 2011.

The incident has sent the perpetually difficult U.S.-Pakistan relationship into a tailspin.

Gen. James Mattis, head of U.S. Central Command, announced Monday he has appointed Brig. Gen. Stephen Clark, an Air Force special operations officer, to lead the probe of the incident, and said he must include input from the NATO-led forces in Afghanistan, as well as representatives from the Afghan and Pakistani governments.

According to the U.S. military records described to the AP, the joint U.S. and Afghan patrol requested backup after being hit by mortar and small arms fire by Taliban militants.

Before responding, the joint U.S.-Afghan patrol first checked with the Pakistani army, which reported it had no troops in the area, the military account said.

Some two hours later, still hunting the insurgents — who had by then apparently fled in the direction of Pakistani border posts — the U.S. commander spotted what he thought was a militant encampment, with heavy weapons mounted on tripods.

The joint patrol called for the airstrikes at around 2:21 a.m. Pakistani time, not realizing the encampment was apparently the Pakistani border post.

Records show the aerial response included Apache attack helicopters and an AC-130 gunship.

U.S. officials are working on the assumption the Taliban chose the location for the first attack to create just such confusion and draw U.S. and Pakistani forces into firing on each other, according to U.S. officials briefed on the operation.

At the White House, spokesman Jay Carney said President Barack Obama considers the Pakistani deaths a tragedy, and said the administration is determined to investigate.

The Pentagon released a four-page memo from Mattis directing Clark to determine what happened, which units were involved, which ones did or did not cross the border, how the operation was coordinated, and what caused the deaths and injuries.

Mattis also asked Clark to develop recommendations about how border operations could be improved, and said the final report should be submitted by December 23.

The details of the airstrike emerged as aftershocks were reverberating across the U.S. military and diplomatic landscape Monday, threatening communications and supply lines for the Afghan war and the success of an upcoming international conference.

While U.S. officials expressed regret and sympathy over the cross-border incident, they are not acknowledging blame, amid conflicting reports about who fired first.

The airstrike was politically explosive as well as deadly, coming as U.S. officials were working to repair relations with the Pakistanis after a series of major setbacks, including the U.S. commando raid into Pakistan that killed Osama bin Laden in May.

In recent weeks, military leaders had begun expressing some optimism that U.S.-Pakistan military cooperation along the border was beginning to improve. U.S. Army Maj. Gen. Daniel Allyn told Pentagon reporters just last Tuesday that incidents of firing from Pakistan territory had tapered off somewhat in recent weeks.

Speaking to reporters Monday, Pentagon press secretary George Little stressed the need for a strong military relationship with Pakistan.

"The Pakistani government knows our position on that, and that is we do regret the loss of life in this incident, and we are investigating it," said Little.

The military fallout began almost immediately.

Pakistan has blocked vital supply routes for U.S.-led troops in Afghanistan and demanded Washington vacate a base used by American drones. Pakistan ordered CIA employees to mothball their drone operation at Pakistan's Shamsi air base within two weeks, a senior Pakistani official said. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.

On the diplomatic front, Pakistan said Tuesday it will boycott an international conference on Afghanistan next week to protest the incident.

The decision to boycott the Bonn, Germany, conference was made during a Pakistani Cabinet meeting in the city of Lahore, said three officials who attended the meeting. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media ahead of an official announcement.

The State Department also issued a new warning for U.S. citizens in Pakistan. It said some U.S. government personnel working in Pakistan were being recalled to Islamabad and warned Americans to be on guard for possible retaliation. U.S. citizens in Pakistan are being told to travel in pairs, avoid crowds and demonstrations and keep a low profile.
 
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This is what the WSJ article says:



Apparently, when fired at the copter, the NATO forces went back and communicated with the Pakistani command to ascertain the presence of the troops. Per their claims, after receiving a response in the negative, they took the posts to be those of the Taliban, and went ahead with the attack with full force.

And here's the flame:



The only line that may come out now will be... "What we've got here... is failure to communicate".

What an excellent flip, now who is telling the truth???
 
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Pakistan had given GPS coordinates of its checkposts to Nato. The question of Pakistani forces being in the area becomes null and void when you have a permanent presence there.

Who did they speak to? Such exchanges should have a detailed audit trail. Sounds like BS.
 
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What an excellent flip, now who is telling the truth???

If this is indeed true, then What I suspect is the following 2 scenarios

1. Pakistan forces were involved in fire attack on NATO 300 or so yards away. NATO inquired about presence of Pakistani forces in area. Pakistani command, to deny their involvement in the attack, refused, never expecting a cross border attack.. NATO went ahead and blasted the source of attack which turned out to be the Paksitani checkpost

2. NATO forces came under attack from the vicinity of the checkpost from some militants. NATO inquired about presence of Pakistani forces in area. Pakistani command, to avoid any appearance of their involvement in the the attack, refused, never expecting a cross border attack.. NATO went ahead and blasted the area and Pakistani checkpost got caught in the fire storm.
 
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What an excellent flip, now who is telling the truth???

What is the most convincing piece of argument?

A loaded gun.

And who's got the bigger gun here?

The truth, when in the history of mankind, did the truth ever matter? For all I know, the truth is what we (individually) believe.



Anyway, the Americans will also get satellite imagery and data from the plane to show the world who was at mistake.
 
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