Alternatives to U-214

[PAFAce]

Seems so, the recent PN Chief statement of looking into Chinese subs must be a msg to the Germans that things need to get finalized soon or else other options are there too, in my opinion that is as don;t see any other need for saying so.

taimikhan, a Chinese deal and a German deal are not mutually exclusive. It may well be true that PN will look into increased cooperation with the Chinese, especially with large surface ships, but that doesn't have to be only if the German deal breaks down. I, personally, don't think that statement was a message at all. I think it was a statement that expressed the intentions of the Pakistan Navy, and it was something we all knew anyway. I don't know why, for some reason, everyone on this forum took that to be "U-214 deal is in troubled waters".

I did not read it anywhere, only topic of thread made me think about it. Why look for options when you want to buy something.

Well, I guess the thread is a hypothetical one. Maybe the thread starter is panicing, or maybe he is genuinely concerned, who knows?

But, the answer to your question is, why not consider other options? I bought a new 40" LCD TV on Boxing Day (good deals at Best Buy). I looked at about 5 or 6 different brands before buying one, even though I kinda knew eventually I would settle for either Sony or Samsung. Ended up bringing home a Samsung, but now I know that I made a good deal. Had I not looked at the other options, I would have had doubts over my decision. Had all the Samsungs sold out, or if the deal offered wasn't good enough, I would have gladly brought back a Toshiba, because I looked at other options.

 

[Quwa]

We're not even sure what the PN meant by submarine cooperation with China: Does it mean buying directly off the shelf such as Song? Are we talking about upgrading an existing platform such as Yuan? Or is PN interested in joining a new-generation SSK project? Perhaps the initial steps towards a submarine suitable to serve as SSN? There are many possibilities within that statement, and hence its vague.

 

[fatman17]

i think if the german sub deal fizzles out (most likely) then PN should revive the agosta option (as ToT is available). further since the spares availability is an issue (from France), then PN should like the PAF commence work on a submarine rebuild factory which produces the spares locally. I think DCN can be convinced to supply the precision machinery.

 

[niaz]

GOP has always been cash strapped and likely to remain so in the foreseeable future. Besides, PN has always been given back seat when resources allocated to defense are handed out. Thus PN would probably never have a surface fleet strong enough to be of concern to the IN. Any offensive threat must therefore come from the subsurface fleet.

By all accounts, German U-214 is the quietest diesel submarine in the world as of today. Even nations with long traditions of building submarines such as UK, France, USA and Sweden or Russia haven’t been able to produce a diesel hunter killer submarine which is as capable as U-214. Chinese have a very long way to go before they are up to scratch. IMO there is no real alternative to U-214.

 

[Penguin]

By all accounts, German U-214 is the quietest diesel submarine in the world as of today. Even nations with long traditions of building submarines such as UK, France, USA and Sweden or Russia haven’t been able to produce a diesel hunter killer submarine which is as capable as U-214. Chinese have a very long way to go before they are up to scratch. IMO there is no real alternative to U-214.

Lets not forget about the Japanese: builds very capable hunter-killer subs (though not an export option). Possibly the Dutch could too.

 

[waz]

The 214 deal is on and I posted the news in the 214 thread. Please, brothers follow the other threads as well and not some ranting by Indian kids on another forum…..

 

[Super Falcon]

chinese sub is good option cost effective and rated best of the best dont forget chinese sub gave an heart attack american aircraft carrier in war games

 

[razgriz19]

oh bahi please do some research and then say u 212 U214 is the export version of U212
U 212 cant be sold to any body its only for germans germans and germans this is third time u mentioned U212 i saw a vedio of it on this form they called it world stealthiest SUB I love it
If they are not giving U214 and why they will give us u212 just a logic

give me a break....italy also uses type 212... get ur facts rite..

 

[SBD-3]

give me a break....italy also uses type 212... get ur facts rite..

Itlay has i not because as an export customer but a partner plz read

At the beginning of the 1990s the German Navy was seeking a replacement for the Type 206 submarines. Initial study started on a Type 209 improved design, with AIP capability, called Type 212.

The final programme started in 1994 as the two navies of Germany and Italy began working together to design a new conventional submarine, respectively to operate in the low and narrow waters of the Baltic sea and in the deeper waters of the Mediterranean sea. The two different requirements were mixed into a common one and, because of significant updates to the design, the designation was changed to Type 212A since then.

In 1996 a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) gave the start to the cooperation. Its main aim was the construction of identical boats and the start of a collaboration in logistic and life-cycle support for the two navies.

The German government placed an initial order of four Type 212A submarines in 1998. The German Submarine Consortium built them at the shipyards of HDW and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH (TNSW) of Emden. Different sections of the submarines were constructed at both sites at the same time and then half of them were shipped to the respective other yard so that both HDW and Thyssen Nordseewerke assembled two complete submarines each.

In the same year the Italian government placed an order of two U212A submarines built by Fincantieri for the Marina Militare (Italian Navy) at Muggiano shipyard.

The German Navy ordered two additional, improved submarines in 2006, to be delivered from 2012 on. They will be 1.2 meters longer to give additional space for a new reconnaissance mast.

On 21 April 2008 the Italian Navy ordered a second batch of submarine in the same configuration of the original ones. Some upgrading should involve materials and components of commercial derivation, as well as the software package of the CMS. The intention is to keep the same configuration of the first series and reduce maintenance costs.

The export-oriented Type 214 submarine succeeds the Type 209 submarine and shares certain features with the Type 212A, such as the AIP fuel cell propulsion.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

If Pakistan was smart they would just get 8 Agosta Subs frist brande new while the other Sub negotiations are on going

Build 8 Agotas in Pakistan


GET4 SUBS from , france
Get 4 subs from germany
Get refurbished 2 subs from usa

 

[Quwa]

Should the U-214 deal fail, then the PN will likely invest in a Chinese system such as the Type 041 Yuan.

 

[unicorn148]

If Pakistan was smart they would just get 8 Agosta Subs frist brande new while the other Sub negotiations are on going

Build 8 Agotas in Pakistan


GET4 SUBS from , france
Get 4 subs from germany
Get refurbished 2 subs from usa

that will be too costly for Pakistan i think they cant afford that much France subs are costly even the Germans

 

[TaimiKhan]

Should the U-214 deal fail, then the PN will likely invest in a Chinese system such as the Type 041 Yuan.

Will it will eventually happen one way or another in future. Even if we buy U-214s, in future PN will have to look for the Chinese subs, as they would be good enough in a few years time and hopefully they would not be as costly as the western platforms.

 

[Quwa]

Will it will eventually happen one way or another in future. Even if we buy U-214s, in future PN will have to look for the Chinese subs, as they would be good enough in a few years time and hopefully they would not be as costly as the western platforms.

Should U-214 be acquired, I don't see PN just simply buying a Chinese submarine off-the-shelf, or even upgrading and customizing an existing system. After the U-214, the PN will likely gear towards the development of an indigenous submarine for exclusively domestic use. Thus, one on end you have license-produced U-214 and its subsequent variants, and on the other, your own design. My expectation is that PN is looking to develop an SSGN in the long-term, and Chinese assistance can be acquired in terms of designing a suitable hull (similar in size to French Barracuda). However, Pakistan will have to develop its own reactor for this system.

 

[All-Green]

Should U-214 be acquired, I don't see PN just simply buying a Chinese submarine off-the-shelf, or even upgrading and customizing an existing system. After the U-214, the PN will likely gear towards the development of an indigenous submarine for exclusively domestic use. Thus, one on end you have license-produced U-214 and its subsequent variants, and on the other, your own design. My expectation is that PN is looking to develop an SSGN in the long-term, and Chinese assistance can be acquired in terms of designing a suitable hull (similar in size to French Barracuda). However, Pakistan will have to develop its own reactor for this system.

It maybe that the long term strategy is to acquire the best and then work with the Chinese to produce something indigenous which is based on the experience of operating these state of the art subs.
Acquisition of U-214 will be really something special for Pakistan and may usher in a new era of Pakistan China collaboration.