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alternate views on 1971

The explanation is simple. The imposition of martial law and military rule by Ayub Khan in Pakistan around the late 50's started the slide downward. By 1965 Pakistan's economical fate was sealed and the whole panoply of looter characters (mostly connected with Fauji structure) started appearing, Bhutto, Yahya Khan, Tikka Khan, Ziaul Huq etc.

The massive looting (and stashing of wealth in Dubai and Swiss banks) began and the story from then on was a quarrel between the looters, shown in coups, counter-coups, assassinations, hangings etc. Bhutto, Ziaul Huq all met their fate this way.

Following the military rule period in the late eighties, Pakistanis were given some 'semblance' that they had 'democracy' wherein Nawaz Shareef and the Bhutto family had 'arrangements' with the military honchos to share power (and nominal share of the loot). When Nawaz Shareef tried to loot all by himself and defied the military, he got his come-uppance as seen today.

Pakistan is ruled (and looted!) by their military in feudal fashion as always, everyone knows this in Pakistan and puts up with it. There is almost no civil society or protests and no one cares. It's a Fauji country founded and run on feudal principles where people's mandate means little. This is my impression. However I would love to be proven wrong.

I know there are a lot of Pakistani military supporters in this forum. My apologies if I've been a bit too frank. I don't mean to belittle Pakistan. The only problem is that there are Pakistanis in it, some of whom I count as my friends....
So the lawyers movement that toppled musharrf was just a fairy tale?

You assessment is based on your hatred.
Real answer is that Bhutto privatized the economy in the 70s and destroyed it's future.

PS. How great is your democracy when would news organizations are asking if Bangladesh is a one party state.
 
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bangla buddu ( literally meaning the bangali idiot ) traitor sat in the lap of india and created a terrorist organization , he was caught earlier in 1966 and should have been hanged
 
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I think everything was going smooth in 71 as a normal political chaos which is BD/subcontinent standard. But over enthusiast and delusional folks from leftist groups dragged the situation further which invited military intervention and a war like situation started which caused the bloodshed. The leftists were needed to be disarmed involving Bengali Armies and Police, but Pakistani Army mishandled the issue by initiating disarmament process of Bengali Army Police, all at the same time on 25th March. If 25 March operation searchlight didnt happen BD maybe still were part of Pakistan with credible military and larger territory. Pakistan may have survived its better part by dividing the cancer one. Large number of Bangladesh people are actually not standard people and Pakistanis had larger territory with more standard people. If Pakistan needed to survive in that past state, BD area should have been given 1/4th parliamentary rights, not equal head count wise. That way balance would be maintained and parties originating only from this side wont always have total domination but with coalition. Bangladeshi people were really never independent in its thousand year history, that has created these large number of people with inferiority complex. Only slight number people are the exception whom are invader remnants. The same conservative mindset which divided them from India also divided them from Pakistan. Everyone is better off from this place as we can see Mughal/India lost its freedom originating from this place, India got divided in 47 because of this place
(I dont really agree the way India was divided, the independence in 47 could be done in a better way with larger autonomy for BD on Eastern part and similar with Western part also, with lesser religiously motivated turmoil)
, Pakistan was divided and defeated by India, now its a tiny place with over population, without adequate urban infrastructure, impotent to neighbor aggression and less opposition freedom. Too much corrupt and idiotic people around, someone's ideological lecture can be predicted for future looting purposes. Everyday more of these people are popping up from remote corner of the country's village fields with crooked world outlook. While India and Pakistan are Industrialist countries with capably of nuclear, jet engine etc. BD people are busy with friendly stove.

BD people maybe were 10% educated in Pakistan time and educational institutions were heavily infested by leftists and other institutions. Bangladeshi people are actually copycats of India and whatever goes there, BD people bing those here. And the leftists are the result of that. That time the leftist ideology seemed superior to everything else. BD farmers or watermen were not that much educated that time to counter their arguments or Indian propaganda in the subsequent years. Islamic education is also too low among Bangladeshis, its a weapon of superstition and occasional ritual to them. These swarms of freshly educated or illiterates are cause of chaos and easily brainwashed for sinister ideologies or self destructive activities. So the leftists were in revolution mood everywhere in the 70s. After 71 these people caused much destruction in BD as well. People have shown them the love by obliterating them to 0.01% category. By fate BNP and AL found themselves on the opposite side of Pakistan by the turn of events and some Islami parties chose to support Pakistan because they didnt want further divide among Muslim areas as they were also against divide from India or because they were political opponents of AL/leftists. I was a pro leftists/Awami 5 years ago and vocal against war criminal accused people, now indifferent to these issues with balanced views by observing the happenings. In young age people can be easily brainwashed for destruction, which happened to the leftist. And Islamists didnt bother to gain trust of mass people. It was a hell three years ago arguing different contesting people. I may not have a change of heart if more of these online razakar people were around. As there is no opposition to argue with, people may sit and realize the real issues. I for example now find these non Muslims and lowly educated Muslims shedding crocodile tears over 71 more distasteful, who deviate people from real world issues.
 
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It is stupid to keep beating a dead bush, no fruits or flowers will drop in your basket. Whatever happened happened, look forward now.

Bangladesh should've been independent country in 47 as it was suggested in 40's resolution in Lahore. But even 71departure is fine, though it should ve been in a different way than it actually happened, but hey we can only wish now. If Pakistan had Bangladesh today, Pakistan had to work harder and spend more to break free north east from India because india surrounding the eastern part from 3.5 sides was a complete no no for Pakistan.
 
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So the lawyers movement that toppled musharrf was just a fairy tale?

You assessment is based on your hatred.
Real answer is that Bhutto privatized the economy in the 70s and destroyed it's future.

PS. How great is your democracy when would news organizations are asking if Bangladesh is a one party state.

What hatred and based on what factor? I call it as I see it, shoot the messenger if you want to.

Lawyer's movement is a temporary phenomenon that has done next-to-nothing to dislodge the power structure that controls today's Pakistan.

Bangladeshis who hate Pakistan don't go on and on about Pakistan like I do. They are perfectly happy to see it devolve into a morass, like it is doing now.

Bangladesh is a f*cked-up place too, but at least it is going someplace and providing its citizens a stable promise of a better future. I don't know if that can be said about Pakistan, looking at your own media. IK himself is only one person and how many Pakistanis are dedicated and have his back for his vision?

Where is the a) peace overture towards Indians and b) plan for changing the economy to an export economy?

I don't see it yet. But - IMHO there will be better days for Pakistan. When you've hit bottom - there is no place to go but up.
 
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What hatred and based on what factor? I call it as I see it, shoot the messenger if you want to.

Lawyer's movement is a temporary phenomenon that has done next-to-nothing to dislodge the power structure that controls today's Pakistan.

Bangladeshis who hate Pakistan don't go on and on about Pakistan like I do. They are perfectly happy to see it devolve into a morass, like it is doing now.

Bangladesh is a f*cked-up place too, but at least it is going someplace and providing its citizens a stable promise of a better future. I don't know if that can be said about Pakistan, looking at your own media. IK himself is only one person and how many Pakistanis are dedicated and have his back for his vision?

Where is the a) peace overture towards Indians and b) plan for changing the economy to an export economy?

I don't see it yet. But - IMHO there will be better days for Pakistan. When you've hit bottom - there is no place to go but up.

**Sigh**

You have no idea what you are talking about.

"Where is the a) peace overture towards Indians"

https://www.wionews.com/south-asia/...han-to-open-sharada-temple-for-indians-205524

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/pa...dian-pilot-as-peace-gesture-imran-khan-141548

https://arynews.tv/en/imran-khan-completion-kartarpur-corridor/



"and b) plan for changing the economy to an export economy?"

https://thediplomat.com/2019/03/looking-east-the-evolution-of-pakistan-malaysia-economic-ties/

https://www.geo.tv/latest/232107-eu-pakistan-agree-on-new-engagement-plan-in-trade-economy

https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/448119-pakistan-on-the-right-economic-course


I'm embarrassed for you.
You have no idea what modern day Pakistan is like. You are still stuck in the 70s (like many Indians).
 
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Frankly, Pakistan's economic and fiscal policies are the worst performers in the region. You have been seriously short of good policymakers in this area.

What I'm expecting is, in near future Pakistan's economy would be wholly dependent on China, acting as a peripheral part of the supply chain of Chinese industries. Now, how that will work for Pakistan, I don't know. It would basically depend on Chinese needs and the status of their economy. Besides, you will also have to compete with other countries particularly from ASEAN to grab the Chinese market.

What I'm seeing is Pakistan is primarily focusing on agricultural exports. That is precisely the main feature of a peripheral state in the Dependency Theory.

@Bilal9 bhai, let me know your views on this.
 
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Frankly, Pakistan's economic and fiscal policies are the worst performers in the region. You have been seriously short of good policymakers in this area.

What I'm expecting is, in near future Pakistan's economy would be wholly dependent on China, acting as a peripheral part of the supply chain of Chinese industries. Now, how that will work for Pakistan, I don't know. It would basically depend on Chinese needs and the status of their economy. Besides, you will also have to compete with other countries particularly from ASEAN to grab the Chinese market.

What I'm seeing is Pakistan is primarily focusing on agricultural exports. That is precisely the main feature of a peripheral state in the Dependency Theory.

@Bilal9 bhai, let me know your views on this.


You completely ignored my answer to your 2 questions... but okay....

Let me explain it to you in a way you might understand.
It's like I explained modern day Bangladesh by only viewing it through 1974.

Your nonsense is on that level.
Every indication in Pakistan is going up, Including Happiness level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

You can sit here, close your eyes and masturbate over "Pakistan is a failed state"

or you can actually look at the reality and realize that Pakistan is emerging onto the world stage.
 
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You completely ignored my answer to your 2 questions... but okay....

Let me explain it to you in a way you might understand.
It's like I explained modern day Bangladesh by only viewing it through 1974.

Your nonsense is on that level.
Every indication in Pakistan is going up, Including Happiness level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

You can sit here, close your eyes and masturbate over "Pakistan is a failed state"

or you can actually look at the reality and realize that Pakistan is emerging onto the world stage.

Either you didn't get the context or you are trying to escape the argument.

Nobody is talking about the current status, both Bangladesh and Pakistan are shitty third world countries. We are discussing about the future paths and economic goals.

Bangladesh has set a goal for itself and moving towards it. Whereas Pakistan seems to be moving without any direction. Looking at the current policies and nature of its economy I've slightly explained how Pakistan's economy would look like in near future and the challenges it would face.
 
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Bhaisaab, I have visited Pakistan almost every year (mostly to Karachi) in the past five/six years on business and have gone up to Lahore as well a couple of times.

The number of Pakistanis who possess modern secular mentality and practicality combined with cool business acumen to utilize the local populace as a resource to make money from exports are extremely few and far between. Their roaming perimeter is to Dubai (sometimes London) and then back to Karachi. They haven't expanded their horizons to make money overseas.

I meet your businessmen in the overseas export fairs in Europe as well - the dynamism and fire-in-the-belly that I see in Bangladeshi businessmen is absent in their Pakistani counterparts. Too comfortable.

The govt. lacks the dynamism as well. Export policy incentives are absent, electricity situation is improving but way worse than the rest of the subcontinent. These factors need to change.

Why does a country like Bangladesh add value and make twice as much money from clothes made out of Pakistani Cotton. Value addition is where it is at.

Could Pakistani businessmen set up Garment Factories thirty years ago? Did they have money? Yes to both. But why they did not, only Allah Knows.

Pakistani businessmen are happy and stuck in their feudal quid-pro-quo situation looking for govt. handouts and making money at home by building fancy neighborhoods, roads and showcase Defense colonies for the few rich Fauji folks at home.

Like George Carlin says 'buying things you don't need at 25% interest with money you don't have'. Bangladeshis have this disease too, to some extent. We say, buying 'Kaua ka baccha' with money, only to throw it away.

I am surprised the average Pakistani has not gotten fed up with this.

That is my impression, I could be wrong.
 
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The only view is the real view and a pragmatic view and a honest view of whole problem

During early 1947 -1965's
The condition across both side of Pakistan was similar , people had large families but not enough resources but they had each other for comfort. However as Pakistan (East / West) started to stand on it's feet it became apparent that one side of Pakistan (East) suffered from regular weather calamities (Floods). Every few years
Floods would come in and destroy large amount of Property.

So if we view a 10 year cycle , a family in West Pakistan , would work and gather few assets and grow have bank account because we did not had flooding. The story on East Pakistan was different the floods would continue to wipe up properties owned , do damages and would not allow the middle class to prop up.

We can say a East Pakistan (Bangladesh) community was not able to develop their middle class who can setup their own small business due to flood related poverty

Eight Major Floods (Reference of Flood History in Bangladesh)
1954 - 36,920 Sq km Flooded 25% of country
1955 - 50,700 Sq km Flooded 34% of country
1956 - 35,620 Sq km Flooded 24% of country
1962 - 37,404 Sq km Flooded 25% of country
1963 - 43,180 Sq km Flooded 29% of country
1968 - 37,300 Sq km Flooded 25% of country
1970 - 42,640 Sq km Flooded 28% of country
1971 - 36,475 Sq km Flooded 24% of country

Just for reference the floods sustained in 2005 in Pakistan it took us good 3-5 years to recover, in current Pakistan , so you can imagine what the situation as on East Pakistan specially at that time Pakistan was relatively poor economy


India's Role in Flooding
India was the number one culprit for releasing excess water many times without warning in to East Pakistan, due to lack of Dams and protective barriers , the Floods caused massive damage. Current Pakistan (West Pakistan) , never really had any say on that water release as all these rivers were inside India where the Floods emerged from in first place

a) So what was taking place was a Flood War damaging East Pakistan's Economy

b) Secondary war was taking place as lies were spread at ground level that cause of East's
poverty was West Pakistan



Espionage / Stirring of Terrorism inside East Pakistan

India continued to finance the internal rift between 1965 up to 1971 by support of certain political minds who wanted political favors and power in return for raising anti Pakistan sentiment locally.


"1970's also say a massive Cyclone strike East Pakistan killing 500,000 people which infuriated local people due to massive amount of deaths "
Note: India still declared war on Pakistan in 1971 when their was such a massive calamity due to natural disaster mere few months later

Birth Of Textile Industry in East Pakistan
One of the major political tools used by Indian lobby was to spread lies that no major industrial centers were being setup in East Pakistan, so West Pakistani Industrialist setup Textile industries and hired local workers to help remove poverty

However due to flood the local population always had trouble maintaining the cash / money as flood regularly destroyed assets property every few years on massive scale

In order to counter the sentiment , many of the Industrialist in West Pakistan actively setup Textiles industries inside East Pakistan , so that the RAW's narrative can be countered.


Political Fall out from Last Election prior to War:
Looking back most Pakistanis (West Pakistani) feel the issue of election should have been approached differently. Any objection to Mujib was on security grounds due to his ties with India.

However instead of exposure of his ties to India he was allowed to contest in elections
and that created a politically unstable situation in East Pakistan.

India started the war and various lies were spread in Local Circles against Pakistan's military

Lack of Navy and Transport of Troops :
At that time lack of Navy and Transport capabilities between East and West Pakistan hindered proper defense

Bhutto in 1974 visited Bangladesh but what is the point then when it was already too late should have stood down politically in 1971
1423803962_a993865091_b.jpg


Bhutto himself was hanged for his role in political unstability in 1970's
533e96c323b29.jpg



Post War :
  • 1975 Mujibur Rehman killed by his own folks, these were internal elements in Bangladesh and internal power struggle which followed post war
Deadbody1.jpg





Economic Views you can see in 1950 both Bangladesh and Pakistan had similar GDP
So the stories of massive wealth in East Pakistan were not true
capac1-k8G--621x414@LiveMint.jpg



Another graph shows Pakistan/Bangladesh economies were almost identical in 1971
Pak-Bangladesh-GDP+1970-2011.jpg



Both nations continue to thrive as brotherly muslim nations
main-qimg-64bf2cdca11eb6175223caa1ce643bfa



Before we leave this discuss it is also important to note the result of elections in 70's in Pakistan by virtue of which East Pakistani party was suppose to form the majority government

The political wrong decisions by Bhutto further escalated the problem and that must be acknowledged as Pakistani and I personally understand that issue

If Mujib was a conspirator he should be have been disqualified from election in 68

View attachment 548521



Lessons Learned

a) Weather
devastation played a massive role in hindering East Pakistan's economic growth and growth of middle class between 1947-1970

b) Lack of Dams prevented mass flooding , India did not helped as it released flood waters
unannounced.

c) Lack of Prison Sentence , if evidence existed against Mujib Ur Rehman, he should have been disqualified to prevent any disharmony in election.

d) Post Election confusion and refusal to allow East Pakistan's party to form
government Bhutto, PPP and other elements created a political mess.

[No war crime was committed during war as Pakistan was defending it's own citizens, the military at borders were protecting the border , a majority of that is a massive fabricated illusion, once a full blown war starts we know their are casualties Bombardment, firing , air bombing etc]

A
majority of people who lived in that time for example my parents state clearly it was 100% Bhutto's blind refusal to step down and accept election results, I agree to some degree that Bhutto did create a massive issue out of no issue.




Looking back their is regret that East Pakistan is not there but at least their is a Muslim country still doing well known as Bangladesh

Great post. Very in-depth and to the point.
 
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Frankly, Pakistan's economic and fiscal policies are the worst performers in the region. You have been seriously short of good policymakers in this area.

What I'm expecting is, in near future Pakistan's economy would be wholly dependent on China, acting as a peripheral part of the supply chain of Chinese industries. Now, how that will work for Pakistan, I don't know. It would basically depend on Chinese needs and the status of their economy. Besides, you will also have to compete with other countries particularly from ASEAN to grab the Chinese market.

What I'm seeing is Pakistan is primarily focusing on agricultural exports. That is precisely the main feature of a peripheral state in the Dependency Theory.

@Bilal9 bhai, let me know your views on this.

You are right on the money. Agricultural exports (like cotton or corn/rice/pulses) have little negotiable value because every country has these relatively unsophisticated products on offer and there is no value (therefore demand) added to it yet. Once you make clothes from Cotton or processed food from corn/rice/pulses then those processed end products command much,much higher prices.
 
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Bhaisaab, I have visited Pakistan almost every year (mostly to Karachi) in the past five/six years on business and have gone up to Lahore as well a couple of times.

The number of Pakistanis who possess modern secular mentality and practicality combined with cool business acumen to utilize the local populace as a resource to make money from exports are extremely few and far between. Their roaming perimeter is to Dubai (sometimes London) and then back to Karachi. They haven't expanded their horizons to make money overseas.

I meet your businessmen in the overseas export fairs in Europe as well - the dynamism and fire-in-the-belly that I see in Bangladeshi businessmen is absent in their Pakistani counterparts. Too comfortable.

The govt. lacks the dynamism as well. Export policy incentives are absent, electricity situation is improving but way worse than the rest of the subcontinent. These factors need to change.

Why does a country like Bangladesh add value and make twice as much money from clothes made out of Pakistani Cotton. Value addition is where it is at.

Could Pakistani businessmen set up Garment Factories thirty years ago? Did they have money? Yes to both. But why they did not, only Allah Knows.

Pakistani businessmen are happy and stuck in their feudal quid-pro-quo situation looking for govt. handouts and making money at home by building fancy neighborhoods, roads and showcase Defense colonies for the few rich Fauji folks at home.

Like George Carlin says 'buying things you don't need at 25% interest with money you don't have'. Bangladeshis have this disease too, to some extent. We say, buying 'Kaua ka baccha' with money, only to throw it away.

I am surprised the average Pakistani has not gotten fed up with this.

That is my impression, I could be wrong.

**Double Sigh**

Okay buddy, Pakistan bad, Bangladesh supa dupa pawa.
happy?

Pakistan has a bright future ahead, everyone including American media are acknowledging this.

And for the first time Pakistani history we have a credible PM who is not worried about his money, he's only worried about Pakistan.

Either you didn't get the context or you are trying to escape the argument.

Nobody is talking about the current status, both Bangladesh and Pakistan are shitty third world countries. We are discussing about the future paths and economic goals.

Bangladesh has set a goal for itself and moving towards it. Whereas Pakistan seems to be moving without any direction. Looking at the current policies and nature of its economy I've slightly explained how Pakistan's economy would look like in near future and the challenges it would face.

did you even read the questions that I answered?
How can I escape the arguments when I DIRECTLY ANSWERED THE QUESTION.

Bangladesh, over the past decade or so, has gained a strangle hold on cheap clothing manufacturing. Good for you, that does not mean you are all of a sudden supper power who can lecture others.

Pakistan has only had just over 6 months of a credible government. Give it 5 years and see what they will do.

Remember, a nation is not only the GDP number. It's important, but other numbers that are important are: Happiness index, freedom index, democracy index, poverty index, etc etc.

Is Bangladesh topping all those index as well?

 
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**Double Sigh**

Okay buddy, Pakistan bad, Bangladesh supa dupa pawa.
happy?

Pakistan has a bright future ahead, everyone including American media are acknowledging this.

And for the first time Pakistani history we have a credible PM who is not worried about his money, he's only worried about Pakistan.



did you even read the questions that I answered?
How can I escape the arguments when I DIRECTLY ANSWERED THE QUESTION.

Bangladesh, over the past decade or so, has gained a strangle hold on cheap clothing manufacturing. Good for you, that does not mean you are all of a sudden supper power who can lecture others.

Pakistan has only had just over 6 months of a credible government. Give it 5 years and see what they will do.

Remember, a nation is not only the GDP number. It's important, but other numbers that are important are: Happiness index, freedom index, democracy index, poverty index, etc etc.

Is Bangladesh topping all those index as well?


I have seen your answers, they were few links boasting how the entire world is dying to strengthen bilateral relations with Pakistan, just another typical Pakistani reply.

Why don't you go through my comment on the future of Pakistan economy and counter it with proper logic and by showing efforts of Pakistani policy makers on how they will face the challenges? Those XYZ indexes are irrelevant here, not to mention dozens of other such indexes could be shown where Bangladesh trumps Pakistan by far.

As for Bangladeshi economy, the main challenge we are facing is the lack of diversity in the export basket. To that effort, policies are being formulated for new industries (electronics, shipbuilding, pharmaceuticals, ICT, petrochemical, automobile) and a target has been set to establish 100 SEZs by 2030.
 
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I have seen your answers, they were few links boasting how the entire world is dying to strengthen bilateral relations with Pakistan, just another typical Pakistani reply.

Why don't you go through my comment on the future of Pakistan economy and counter it with proper logic and by showing efforts of Pakistani policy makers on how they will face the challenges? Those XYZ indexes are irrelevant here, not to mention dozens of other such indexes could be shown where Bangladesh trumps Pakistan by far.

As for Bangladeshi economy, the main challenge we are facing is the lack of diversity in the export basket. To that effort, policies are being formulated for new industries (electronics, shipbuilding, pharmaceuticals, ICT, petrochemical, automobile) and a target has been set to establish 100 SEZs by 2030.

Yeah I am sorry, but you are actually retarded.

Most Bengali I know secretly speak Urdu, so you won't have any trouble understanding what the FINANCE MINISTER is saying


You asked what we are doing, where is the finance minister telling you what we are doing.

Again, feel embarrassed for you, you have completely humiliated yourself.
 
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