Akbar

[Flintlock]

Wiki, your best reference. I could go to wiki right now, and change what it says to "the people of CemH have strong affinities to 2 inch tall Eskimos at the North Pole."

My reference would be

"The book of Bullshyt" by Stealth Assassin.

Do you get my rather crude point?

I'm sorry, but I don't.

Unless you can somehow completely discredit the researchers whose works have been referenced in the wikipedia article, my points are quite valid.

CemH has many different areas. It was not a single entity of people. Proof HAS ALREADY BEEN PROVIDED that Cemetary H was related to the Swatt culture of Pakistan and the Xianjiang people.

Where is this proof?

Some proof IVC weren't Dravidian at least. Craniometric analysis in this case. QAW (samples from Xianjiang, non-Dravidian people), cluster with TMG (Swat), CEMH, HARR. At least craniometrically, the IVC people AND Cemetary H people were similar to most Swat Pakistanis and ancient Xianjiang people.



This is from a reputable journal, NOT wikipedia.

Just so it gets through to you. The people of Cemetary H are related to the people of Swat. This is solid evidence, not wiki evidence.

Can you explain your point better?

Which journal are you using? Who is the author? When was it published?

 

[Flintlock]

You will also need to get your maps authenticated. The boundaries shown in that map are not correct, though Cemetary H has recently expanded a little. Again, wiki contradicts itself. Here is another map. Notice how cemetary H is located complately in Pakistan now.

My map isn't from wikipedia. Its from here:

Cultures that arose after the decline of the Indus civilization

(Tokyo Metropolitan Museum Website)

I happen to think that the Tokyo one is quite credible. Unless you are able to provide a better source, I suggest we stick to this one.

 

[Flintlock]

I don't claim descent from Iranians or Arabs. We are ALL migrants at one time or other. Even Tamil Indians came from Africa. One could argue they came from Pakistan into India first, but no Pakistani wants to acknowledge this. Why do you want to acknowledge you gave birth to the world?

Its kinda obvious that the context is the IVC.

Most, if not all modern Pakistanis, have migrated from outside the subcontinent after the decline of the IVC.

 

[roadrunner]

My map isn't from wikipedia. Its from here:

Cultures that arose after the decline of the Indus civilization

(Tokyo Metropolitan Museum Website)

I happen to think that the Tokyo one is quite credible. Unless you are able to provide a better source, I suggest we stick to this one.

It's not credible because it's factually wrong - who knows perhaps a Hindutva member wrote it?

"The Late Harappan Cemetery H is located between Cemetery R37 and Mound AB on a slightly raised plain at Harappa (Rao, 1973). It covered more than 3000sqm with two distinct layers (Rao, 1973)."
The Harappan Tradition

Your map is the size of Punjab. Around 150,000 sqm. Cemetary H is 3000 sqm. My map looks as though it's drawn Cemetary H to a better proportion even though it looks way too big still. Can you prove that the size of Cemetary H was about 150,000 sqm?

Your map may show the extent of Cemetary H culture, but Cemetary H(from where the biological affinities were estimated), was only of 3000sqm and located totally within Pakistan, around Harrappa.

 

[Flintlock]

It's not credible because it's factually wrong - who knows perhaps a Hindutva member wrote it?

"The Late Harappan Cemetery H is located between Cemetery R37 and Mound AB on a slightly raised plain at Harappa (Rao, 1973). It covered more than 3000sqm with two distinct layers (Rao, 1973)."
The Harappan Tradition

Your map is the size of Punjab. Around 150,000 sqm. Cemetary H is 3000 sqm. My map looks as though it's drawn Cemetary H to a better proportion even though it looks way too big still. Can you prove that the size of Cemetary H was about 150,000 sqm?

Your map may show the extent of Cemetary H culture, but Cemetary H(from where the biological affinities were estimated), was only of 3000sqm and located totally within Pakistan, around Harrappa.

Unless you can prove to me that a "Hindutva" member prepared the map, or else get a different and equally credible one, we better stick to this one.
Random speculation isn't going to get us anywhere.

Rao is describing the Cemetery H remains within a tiny 3000 sq. metre region, and not the extent of the Cemetery H culture.

The area of Punjab, I'm guessing, is around 1,50,000 sq Km, not sq metres.

 

[roadrunner]

Unless you can prove to me that a "Hindutva" member prepared the map, or else get a different and equally credible one, we better stick to this one.
Random speculation isn't going to get us anywhere.

Rao is describing the Cemetery H remains within a tiny 3000 sq. metre region, and not the extent of the Cemetery H culture.

The area of Punjab, I'm guessing, is around 1,50,000 sq Km, not sq metres.

I've proved that your map was not Cemetary H. Therefore when you say biological affinities of Cemetary H people were similar to those of the IVC, it means the people buried in Pakistan had similarities with IVC. I could agree your map is Cemetary H culture, but this is irrelevant.

 

[roadrunner]

I just re-read your wiki quote, SA. it even contradicts itself by claiming a culture has a biological affinity to a civilization. That's definitely wrong.

 

[QuickSilver]

It's not credible because it's factually wrong - who knows perhaps a Hindutva member wrote it?

There is no concrete evidence of many things about the culture. And you seem to know that some things are 'factually wrong'. and why do you always get the 'hindutva' thingy? does that mean all muslim researchers' work is also fraud because all are islamic fanatics??

"The Late Harappan Cemetery H is located between Cemetery R37 and Mound AB on a slightly raised plain at Harappa (Rao, 1973). It covered more than 3000sqm with two distinct layers (Rao, 1973)."
The Harappan Tradition

no comments on this one.. am still reading about the cemetry H thing.

 

[roadrunner]

There is no concrete evidence of many things about the culture. And you seem to know that some things are 'factually wrong'. and why do you always get the 'hindutva' thingy? does that mean all muslim researchers' work is also fraud because all are islamic fanatics?

Cemetary H is located in Pakistan around Harrappa isn't it?

How does a culture have a "biological affinity" to IVC people?

 

[Flintlock]

Cemetary H is located in Pakistan around Harrappa isn't it?

How does a culture have a "biological affinity" to IVC people?

I dunno...ask our Hon. Professor.

 

[QuickSilver]

Cemetary H is located in Pakistan around Harrappa isn't it?

How does a culture have a "biological affinity" to IVC people?

A culture is its people.. not the land and practices, so if people from IVC had similar practices that are praticed all along, what makes u think these two sets of people are not even related?

 

[roadrunner]

A culture is its people.. not the land and practices, so if people from IVC had similar practices that are praticed all along, what makes u think these two sets of people are not even related?

A Culture cannot have a biological affinity for another culture, unless the people are biologically the same. Nothing to do with their practices. If Cemetry H has a biological affinity to the IVC, and Cemetery H is located in Pakistan, then this has nothing to do with India.

 

[QuickSilver]

A Culture cannot have a biological affinity for another culture, unless the people are biologically the same. Nothing to do with their practices. If Cemetry H has a biological affinity to the IVC, and Cemetery H is located in Pakistan, then this has nothing to do with India.

when cemetry H came, there was no pakistan or India so it has nothin g do with both?
with due respect Mr.RR, your concept is similar in saying that 'all the remains of early man were found in Africa so there s no relationship btw ppl in europe and africa!'

What is so painful in understanding that both indians and pakistanis had the same history. Infact we had the same history until 1947! everything after 1947 is exclusive to india or pakistan. This is not like the british occupying Indian subcontinent - the british colonised India- but I dont think india colonised pakistan or vice versa.


Frankly, most arguments btw us are cyclic! so just to make sure it doesnt spiral outward, lets have a drink.. cheers

 

[roadrunner]

when cemetry H came, there was no pakistan or India so it has nothin g do with both?
with due respect Mr.RR, your concept is similar in saying that 'all the remains of early man were found in Africa so there s no relationship btw ppl in europe and africa!'

What is so painful in understanding that both indians and pakistanis had the same history. Infact we had the same history until 1947! everything after 1947 is exclusive to india or pakistan. This is not like the british occupying Indian subcontinent - the british colonised India- but I dont think india colonised pakistan or vice versa.

Frankly, most arguments btw us are cyclic! so just to make sure it doesnt spiral outward, lets have a drink.. cheers

So instead of saying, "yes, I don't know how to disagree with your statement, Roadrunner", why try and bumble your way out of the hole you find yourself in and try to start another flame war?

We have been through Pakistan not being called Pakistan before 1947 a million times, even on this thread. It's a ridiculous, pathetic, and weak argument to use, when as we all know, all countries' have a history that is independent of their name. Gaulic history is still French history, even though they didn't call themselves "France" in particular at the time.

The Cem H was/is located in Pakistan. I've given evidence of this.

 

[Vinod2070]

So instead of saying, "yes, I don't know how to disagree with your statement, Roadrunner", why try and bumble your way out of the hole you find yourself in and try to start another flame war?

We have been through Pakistan not being called Pakistan before 1947 a million times, even on this thread. It's a ridiculous, pathetic, and weak argument to use, when as we all know, all countries' have a history that is independent of their name. Gaulic history is still French history, even though they didn't call themselves "France" in particular at the time.

The Cem H was/is located in Pakistan. I've given evidence of this.

It is so conveniently forgotten that Pakistan as it was created had nothing to do with Pre-Islamic history. It was created on the parts of India which happened to have Muslim majority with the majority of Pakistanis being in the eastern wing till 1971. Jinnah himslef stated that Indian Muslims are a separate nation. No geography was involved in this. He himself would be an "Indian" as per your theory, being the grandson of a Gujarati Hindu convert.

The geography of Pakistan is just an accident. Pakistan would be in South of India if Arabs had attacked by sea and invaded South India first. Your own NWFP is only part of Pakistan because Maharaja Ranjit Singh conquered that land and brought the majority of Pushtuns under his rule. Else you would be an Afghan today.

There is no doubt that Pushtuns share their culture more with Afghans than with the rest of Pakistanis (who in turn share the culture with North Indians). Even your favorite Musharraf is a Muhajir and an "Indian" (and "Indian looking") as per your definition.

There was indeed a glorious Pre-Islamic civilization in the parts now called pakistan, which was brutally crushed by intolerant invaders. But you and your ilk are no part of that. Just keep on praising your "But Shikans" and call them tolerant at the same time.

Your meaning of "tolerant" is very different from the rest of the world. It's like USA invades Iraq and then tolerates "Islam" there and "allows" new mosques to come up after taking permission from Bush.

Sound absurd! Now read your own post earlier in the thread.