Akbar

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

By the original inhabitants I mean the original tribes or people are extinct today.
Their genetic component is minimal or even nonexistent in modern Pakistanis, who for the most part, trace their roots to regions outside the subcontinent.

It doesn't' matter if the composition is minimal - it is there. Hence descendants.

The desert was in Rajasthan, and consderably smaller at the time. IVC people migrated through Gujarat into Maharashtra and through Punjab, Haryana, into UP.

The reason they migrated west is perhaps because their lands in the west had been occupied by invaders/settlers

I am not sure that is a legitimate argument - because the Greeks interacted with the Ghandaran people, who were supposed to have been settled on the banks of the Indus since Vedic times, so that would imply that people were still there.

The other issue with the "invader/settler" argument is that the two rivers were too close for any invasion that large affecting the Indus river settlements from not affecting the people on the Saraswati.

And large desert or small desert, it was a desert, and a far longer route into uncharted territory than would have been a migration into a known fertile land pretty much next door.

Not to say that some migration did not occur, but it seems illogical to suggest that the majority would not opt for the easier shift.

 

[Flintlock]

It doesn't' matter if the composition is minimal - it is there. Hence descendants.

Modern day Greeks can claim to be the legitimate heirs to their ancient counterparts. Same goes for Romans, Italians, Gaulish etc. etc.

However, Pakistanis cannot claim such a thing because the original people have long since disappeared or migrated into India.

There might have been some minimal mixing, but modern Pakistanis are essentially outsiders.

The other issue with the "invader/settler" argument is that the two rivers were too close for any invasion that large affecting the Indus river settlements from not affecting the people on the Saraswati.

And large desert or small desert, it was a desert, and a far longer route into uncharted territory than would have been a migration into a known fertile land pretty much next door.

LOL...where's your geography dude? You mean to say that there are no rivers between the Indus and the Ganges?

Its not like they had to take some sort of detour...you are simply drawing a caricature.

 

[Flintlock]

I am not sure that is a legitimate argument - because the Greeks interacted with the Ghandaran people, who were supposed to have been settled on the banks of the Indus since Vedic times, so that would imply that people were still there.

Here are the two major cultures which succeeded the Harappan one:



Both Cemetary H and Painted Gray Ware cultures lie to the east of the Indus.

 

[roadrunner]

^^SA ..There's hundreds of mistakes in your arguments, as well as that map.

Just one big one is this. You don't seem to understand that the spread of a culture, is not necessarily associated with the spread of a people. Even IF Cemetary H culture was a development of Harrapan culture (which it wasn't, let's assume for fun), then this does not mean the Cemetary H people were the same, or descended from, the IVC people.

 

[roadrunner]

Modern day Greeks can claim to be the legitimate heirs to their ancient counterparts. Same goes for Romans, Italians, Gaulish etc. etc.

However, Pakistanis cannot claim such a thing because the original people have long since disappeared or migrated into India.

you're being incredibly deceitful here.

PROVIDE EVIDENCE that the "original people of Pakistan all migrated to India"

If you have none, then stop spreading lies to suit your ideal of stealing histories.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Modern day Greeks can claim to be the legitimate heirs to their ancient counterparts. Same goes for Romans, Italians, Gaulish etc. etc.

However, Pakistanis cannot claim such a thing because the original people have long since disappeared or migrated into India.

There might have been some minimal mixing, but modern Pakistanis are essentially outsiders.

Genes don't simply vanish - if the IVC people bred with migrants, then those genes would continue to be passed one. I am not saying Pakistanis are direct descendent's of the IVC, or that we are the IVC, I am saying that the IVC are part of our gene pool, and hence they count as ancestors.

LOL...where's your geography dude? You mean to say that there are no rivers between the Indus and the Ganges?

Its not like they had to take some sort of detour...you are simply drawing a caricature.

"Dude" look at the map. If this was the same civilization settled on the Indus and the alleged Saraswati, then no person in their right mind would travel a further distance East instead of West into an alien land, rather than towards land that was home to the same people and fertile.

The geography favors my argument - The Indus and teh alleged Saraswati are extremely close. You for some reason are intent on trying to show that the IVC people would have done anything but migrate West.

 

[Flintlock]

Genes don't simply vanish - if the IVC people bred with migrants, then those genes would continue to be passed one. I am not saying Pakistanis are direct descendent's of the IVC, or that we are the IVC, I am saying that the IVC are part of our gene pool, and hence they count as ancestors.

"Dude" look at the map. If this was the same civilization settled on the Indus and the alleged Saraswati, then no person in their right mind would travel a further distance East instead of West into an alien land, rather than towards land that was home to the same people and fertile.

How do you know it was an "alien" land to them? I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Why would the Indus river side be "less alien" than the other direction?

This wasn't some sort of planned emigration. It was gradual shift over hundreds of years.

This "alien land" theory is rather awkward because presumably the people of each IVC settlement considered all but the surrounding villages as "alien".

The geography favors my argument - The Indus and teh alleged Saraswati are extremely close. You for some reason are intent on trying to show that the IVC people would have done anything but migrate West.

Well, that's what the archaeology indicates.

The Indian settlements tend to date later than the Pakistani ones, and the cultures which succeed the Harppans also show an eastward shift.

 

[Flintlock]

you're being incredibly deceitful here.

PROVIDE EVIDENCE that the "original people of Pakistan all migrated to India"

If you have none, then stop spreading lies to suit your ideal of stealing histories.

Check the "Ancient History" thread.

Most, if not all modern Pakistanis claim descent from outside the subcontinent.

You guys are mostly descended from Iranian, Arab and Central Asian tribes.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

How do you know it was an "alien" land to them? I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Why would the Indus river side be "less alien" than the other direction?

Because the argument is that the Saraswati had IVC sites on it - there are an even larger number of sites around the Indus, so if they were the same civilization, it would be "less alien".

This wasn't some sort of planned emigration. It was gradual shift over hundreds of years.

Well, that's what the archaeology indicates.

The Indian settlements tend to date later than the Pakistani ones, and the cultures which succeed the Harppans also show an eastward shift.

It shows some migration (which is not something I am arguing against), not all.

 

[Flintlock]

^^SA ..There's hundreds of mistakes in your arguments, as well as that map.

LOL....if you say so...

Just one big one is this. You don't seem to understand that the spread of a culture, is not necessarily associated with the spread of a people. Even IF Cemetary H culture was a development of Harrapan culture (which it wasn't, let's assume for fun), then this does not mean the Cemetary H people were the same, or descended from, the IVC people.

Here is the Wikipedia article on cemetary H:

The Cemetery H culture developed out of the northern part of the Indus Valley Civilization around 1900 BCE, in and around the Punjab region, which is located on the border of present-day India & Pakistan. It was named after a cemetery found in "area H" at Harappa.

The Cemetery H culture is part of the Punjab Phase, one of three cultural phases that developed in the Localization Era of the Indus Valley Tradition.[1][2]

The Cemetery H culture also "shows clear biological affinities" with the earlier population of Harappa.[4]

The archaeologist Kenoyer noted that this culture "may only reflect a change in the focus of settlement organization from that which was the pattern of the earlier Harappan phase and not cultural discontinuity, urban decay, invading aliens, or site abandonment, all of which have been suggested in the past."[5]

Remains of the culture have been dated from about 1900 BCE until about 1300 BCE. Together with the Gandhara grave culture and the Ochre Coloured Pottery culture, it is considered by some scholars a nucleus of Vedic civilization.

The references are as follows:

1. ^ Kenoyer, Jonathan Mark (1991). "The Indus Valley tradition of Pakistan and Western India". Journal of World Prehistory 5: 1–64. doi:10.1007/BF00978474.
2. ^ Shaffer, Jim G. (1992). "The Indus Valley, Baluchistan and Helmand Traditions: Neolithic Through Bronze Age", in R. W. Ehrich (ed.): Chronologies in Old World Archaeology, Second Edition, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, I:441-464, II:425-446.
3. ^ Sarkar, Sasanka Sekhar (1964). Ancient Races of Baluchistan, Panjab, and Sind.
4. ^ Kennedy, Kenneth A. R. (2000). God-Apes and Fossil Men: Palaeoanthropology of South Asia. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 312. Also Mallory, J. P.; Adams, D. Q. (1997). Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. London and Chicago: Fitzroy-Dearborn, 103, 310.
5. ^ (Kenoyer 1991, p. 56)

* Kenoyer, Jonathan Mark (1991). "Urban Process in the Indus Tradition: A preliminary model from Harappa", in Meadow, R. H. (ed.): Harappa Excavations 1986-1990: A multidiscipinary approach to Third Millennium urbanism. Madison, WI: Prehistory Press, pp. 29–60.

____________________________________________________________________

If Kenoyer, Kennedy and Shaffer have it right, the Cemetary H culture was populated by the same people as the Harappan culture.

 

[Flintlock]

Because the argument is that the Saraswati had IVC sites on it - there are an even larger number of sites around the Indus, so if they were the same civilization, it would be "less alien".

Yeah, but you are forgetting that the Indus sites were abandoned for whatever reasons.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yeah, but you are forgetting that the Indus sites were abandoned for whatever reasons.

Not all of them at the same time, and not all around the time the Saraswati would have dried up. If the sites had been abandoned, then all the more reason for the people on the Saraswati to move West.

I think the evidence points to a gradual dispersion of the IVC people, as the population grew, as happens in every society, not a major migration.

 

[roadrunner]

Here is the Wikipedia article on cemetary H:

Wiki, your best reference. I could go to wiki right now, and change what it says to "the people of CemH have strong affinities to 2 inch tall Eskimos at the North Pole."

My reference would be

"The book of Bullshyt" by Stealth Assassin.

Do you get my rather crude point?

The references are as follows:

1. ^ Kenoyer, Jonathan Mark (1991). "The Indus Valley tradition of Pakistan and Western India". Journal of World Prehistory 5: 1–64. doi:10.1007/BF00978474.
2. ^ Shaffer, Jim G. (1992). "The Indus Valley, Baluchistan and Helmand Traditions: Neolithic Through Bronze Age", in R. W. Ehrich (ed.): Chronologies in Old World Archaeology, Second Edition, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, I:441-464, II:425-446.
3. ^ Sarkar, Sasanka Sekhar (1964). Ancient Races of Baluchistan, Panjab, and Sind.
4. ^ Kennedy, Kenneth A. R. (2000). God-Apes and Fossil Men: Palaeoanthropology of South Asia. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 312. Also Mallory, J. P.; Adams, D. Q. (1997). Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. London and Chicago: Fitzroy-Dearborn, 103, 310.
5. ^ (Kenoyer 1991, p. 56)

* Kenoyer, Jonathan Mark (1991). "Urban Process in the Indus Tradition: A preliminary model from Harappa", in Meadow, R. H. (ed.): Harappa Excavations 1986-1990: A multidiscipinary approach to Third Millennium urbanism. Madison, WI: Prehistory Press, pp. 29–60.

____________________________________________________________________

If Kenoyer, Kennedy and Shaffer have it right, the Cemetary H culture was populated by the same people as the Harappan culture.

CemH has many different areas. It was not a single entity of people. Proof HAS ALREADY BEEN PROVIDED that Cemetary H was related to the Swatt culture of Pakistan and the Xianjiang people.

Some proof IVC weren't Dravidian at least. Craniometric analysis in this case. QAW (samples from Xianjiang, non-Dravidian people), cluster with TMG (Swat), CEMH, HARR. At least craniometrically, the IVC people AND Cemetary H people were similar to most Swat Pakistanis and ancient Xianjiang people.



This is from a reputable journal, NOT wikipedia.

Just so it gets through to you. The people of Cemetary H are related to the people of Swat. This is solid evidence, not wiki evidence.

 

[roadrunner]

Check the "Ancient History" thread.

Most, if not all modern Pakistanis claim descent from outside the subcontinent.

You guys are mostly descended from Iranian, Arab and Central Asian tribes.

I don't claim descent from Iranians or Arabs. We are ALL migrants at one time or other. Even Tamil Indians came from Africa. One could argue they came from Pakistan into India first, but no Pakistani wants to acknowledge this. Why do you want to acknowledge you gave birth to the world?

 

[roadrunner]

Here are the two major cultures which succeeded the Harappan one:



Both Cemetary H and Painted Gray Ware cultures lie to the east of the Indus.

You will also need to get your maps authenticated. The boundaries shown in that map are not correct, though Cemetary H has recently expanded a little. Again, wiki contradicts itself. Here is another map. Notice how cemetary H is located complately in Pakistan now.