Airpower Imbalance - Nuclear Pakistan's Achilles' Heel

[Shiny Capstar]

You are right...but the factors that you mentioned like altitude, energy, RCS, ECM etc are broadly integrated and do form a part of BVR training and tactics...All these factors are also considered while pilots are training for the BFM ( basic fighting maneouvers) as well....

True, but the plane with better avionics and performance but worse trained pilot still has some advantages. Personally I think people saying X has better pilots than Y is a useless argument, both sides will have good pilots and not so good pilots, they are not identical just because they have been through the same training.

 

[apr1000]

Hmmm....interesing deduction ...as per your theory:-

>>>>Indians trained with Israeli's AF

>>>>However, PAF pilots have shot down Israeli pilots..

>>>>Now that means PAF pilots are better than Israeli's who also trained Indians...

So doing some 2 + 2 , in simple terms using your formula :-

PAF > Indian AF

why do u keep denying the truth?

IDF crushed u with an OVERWELMING victory, u lost HUNDREDS of planes IDF lost only a few.

if u shot down 1-2 IDF planes, hats off to u, u still lost lol

and ur aim-120, the day the deal was announced, IAF was looking for a better BVR, and what makes u think that the new R-77 with 160 km range isn't in IAF inventory?

plus IAF has practice with F-16 block 60 (Singaporean) and every time MKI came out on top.

lol just proved u wrong, getting F-16 wont be a big game changer, you'll still lose only it'll take a while and u might shoot down 10 MKI's for 60 F-16s

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

why do u keep denying the truth?

IDF crushed u with an OVERWELMING victory, u lost HUNDREDS of planes IDF lost only a few.

if u shot down 1-2 IDF planes, hats off to u, u still lost lol

and ur aim-120, the day the deal was announced, IAF was looking for a better BVR, and what makes u think that the new R-77 with 160 km range isn't in IAF inventory?

plus IAF has practice with F-16 block 60 (Singaporean) and every time MKI came out on top.

lol just proved u wrong, getting F-16 wont be a big game changer, you'll still lose only it'll take a while and u might shoot down 10 MKI's for 60 F-16s

1- 8-10 not 1-2, vs 0 lost let alone hundreds.

2- Singapore doesn't operate block60.

 

[Keysersoze]

why do u keep denying the truth?

IDF crushed u with an OVERWELMING victory, u lost HUNDREDS of planes IDF lost only a few.

if u shot down 1-2 IDF planes, hats off to u, u still lost lol

and ur aim-120, the day the deal was announced, IAF was looking for a better BVR, and what makes u think that the new R-77 with 160 km range isn't in IAF inventory?

plus IAF has practice with F-16 block 60 (Singaporean) and every time MKI came out on top.

lol just proved u wrong, getting F-16 wont be a big game changer, you'll still lose only it'll take a while and u might shoot down 10 MKI's for 60 F-16s

errrm you need to go back to the library and read some more books. having read soem of your posts all you have shown is your TOTAL lack of any knowledge and swaggering ego. (perhaps compensating for something?)


The fact is that PAF pilots had no problems with dealing with the "invincible" IDF pilots taking ZERO losses whilst working with the idiots of the ARAB airforces. WE didn't lose the Arabs did. We left our mark though.

Point two is that you know nothing about BVR missiles tell me about the launch criteria for the BVR missiles you are talking about. When you know something then come back little boy.
Also given that India has started looking for new BVR missiles (according to you) they should get them in about 15 years with the "efficiency" of the acquisition period you Indians have. Oh and if you have such a great advantage then why are you trying to claim a missile that even the Russians have not yet got?


You have proved nothing little boy other than the fact that small children should be quite until they grow up

 

[maximus]

In absolute terms India may lose more than Pakistan, although in relative terms Pakistan would lose more in a nuclear exchange. India's economy may be crippled and a lot of people killed, but it would survive to some extent while Pakistan as an organised state would be almost annihilated.

The some extent is a very vague description. In a nuclear war the outcome will be annihilation for both sides. India has very large densely populated areas. Millions of people are crammed in many cities all across India. Just a handful of missiles hitting the target will cause instant millions of deaths. Don't disregard the after effects of a nuclear war.

 

[maximus]

India has a no first use policy if I am right and besides, Pakistan is far more likely to launch a first strike than India. So it would be India making sure no piece of Pakistan remains, actually does Pakistan have enough nukes to take out the whole of India?

Well, that obviously is something for you to find out... I hope you're not so eager to find out. I'm quite optimistic that Pakistan has all the means at disposal to erase large parts of India. Hundreds of millions will perish which is annihilation in itself. Anyone in denial is underestimating our strength and simply naive.

 

[maximus]

u trained with saudi's

India has trained with Israeli's

in simple terms

Israel > saudi's

Give me a break... The Israelis got their rear ends kicked by a bunch of street fighters in Lebanon. They used all their might yet got humiliated. These cowards are only good at butchering unarmed civilians such as the Palestinians. Don't even make any comparison...

 

[maximus]

To be Fair PAF will have a great BVR weapon with 18 f16/52 + 44 MLU to 44 of their F16.

You sort of forgot to add the JF-17s to the tally. 300 Thunders will also have BVR capability. In fact, the JF-17 will have a wide range of Chinese, French and South African BVR missiles. Not to mention the FC-20s. The F-16s will be phased out eventually. The F-16s have a lot of strings attached to them and are only meant as a temporary gap fill measure. The lack of numbers suggest everything. The new airframes are primarily meant as a learning platform. Our mainstay are Chinese fighters.

 

[maximus]

why do u keep denying the truth?

IDF crushed u with an OVERWELMING victory, u lost HUNDREDS of planes IDF lost only a few.

if u shot down 1-2 IDF planes, hats off to u, u still lost lol

and ur aim-120, the day the deal was announced, IAF was looking for a better BVR, and what makes u think that the new R-77 with 160 km range isn't in IAF inventory?

plus IAF has practice with F-16 block 60 (Singaporean) and every time MKI came out on top.

lol just proved u wrong, getting F-16 wont be a big game changer, you'll still lose only it'll take a while and u might shoot down 10 MKI's for 60 F-16s

Denying the truth? I guess just in the same way IAF beat the USAFs "inferior" F-15s with their "mighty" MiG-21 Bisons... LOL What a joke...

 

[SSGPA1]

Some major points.

10 to 1 superiority in transport aircraft means india ability to move troops and fresh supplies al over the battle front is a huge advantage OFTEN OVERLOOKED...

...

DESERT STORM £1 MILLION iraqi ARMY WITH 5000 TANKS WAS DESROYED BY allied land forces numbering 350,000 with only 3000 tanks.

Again, Pakistan can keep PAF completly focused on India in a war but India can't do the same.

IAF's transporters: How many are active? How many are going to be used in a war against Pakistan? Is it worth the cost?

Desert Storm: Pakistan is not Iraq and India is not equal to Allied forces either.

 

[Captain03]

The article actually failed to mention the qualitative edge of PAF pilots over their adversaries. It's not the size as they say, it's how you use it.

agreed
they say that about more than one thing

 

[blain2]

I did not question PAF ability to use BVR jets.

What i questioned was how can PAF pilots or its air force be better trained then IAF which has been inducting and using all force multiplers and better aircraft far longer than PAF...

iT DOES not make sense.

What better aircraft? Aside from MKI, you have nothing either in terms of avionics or performance envelope that beats the F-16. Secondly, as much as I admire the author, a lot of information in the article is quite dated.

As far as training is concerned, yes you have your air crews training on the MKIs, but you guys are still lagging in similar areas as the PAF. You do not have AF-wide DL capability. You guys do not have AEW capability. Yes you have had a taste of it in EXs overseas but so have we. We have been working with quite a few countries heavily utilizing AEW and DL capabilities. So I am no overly taken up by this amazing superiority of the IAF over PAF. You guys have one platform that is new. It is a challenge, however PAF has considerable upgrades, capability enhancements and training aides in place to rectify the gaps. While quantitatively PAF will always be in the second place, qualitatively, we are definitely at par with the IAF and may even exceed the IAF in the way we are going about structuring the PAF.

There are great integration and operational challenges for both sides to overcome as they absorb new technologies and platforms. I am not really sold on this "overwhelming" IAF technical superiority as of yet.

 

[blain2]

why do u keep denying the truth?

IDF crushed u with an OVERWELMING victory, u lost HUNDREDS of planes IDF lost only a few.

if u shot down 1-2 IDF planes, hats off to u, u still lost lol

and ur aim-120, the day the deal was announced, IAF was looking for a better BVR, and what makes u think that the new R-77 with 160 km range isn't in IAF inventory?

plus IAF has practice with F-16 block 60 (Singaporean) and every time MKI came out on top.

lol just proved u wrong, getting F-16 wont be a big game changer, you'll still lose only it'll take a while and u might shoot down 10 MKI's for 60 F-16s

May make sense for you to check out your zeal before you post here.

IAF can go look for whatever it can, however PAF is not sitting on its *** doing nothing. The technological edge is not the domain of the Russians and Israelis only. There are plenty of other players out there and Pakistan is working with them.

Be happy that your boys practiced with the RSAF F-16s (they are blk50/2s and not 60s) and came out on top. Not to take anything away from RSAF, but PAF is not RSAF. We have used the aircraft in anger and have learned considerably on how to employ the aircraft. We have also operated the aircraft for much longer than RSAF. Secondly, not all blk-52s are alike. The ones that RSAF fly do not have the ECM or the AI radar that PAF would be getting on its blk-52s. Also there are very many other differences between their order and what PAF would be getting. Secondly, PAF is not relying on blk-52 solely to cater to the IAF threat. There are other programs of varying potential that are in place to be executed.

Also when talking about winning and losing, it would make sense for you to realize that between Pakistan and India, its no longer a matter of sending your fighters in to kick each other's teeth out. Its no longer possible to do so without escalating the situation. So gone are the days of the 17 day duels over the skies of Pakistan and India. Both PAF and IAF have enough capability in place to make the other think twice. Since neither side can guarantee a complete domination due to a multitude of factors, lets keep the winning and losing out of this discussion.

 

[x_man]

It's not confirmed kill AFAIK..there are some anti-BVR measures which can save you from missile..maybe Sir X-man can tell you more about it.

100 % kill ratio: I don’t think that any weapon system can claim this…Every system has its grey areas that once exploited, can lower their effectiveness…

Majority of BVR missiles employ a combination of semi-active and active radar. In early missiles, the launching aircraft's radar locked onto the target and directs a radar energy at it and kept it illuminated till the time the missile hits the target.....This type of tracking not only poses a threat for target but the attacker as well, whereby it had to keep a target illuminated for a longer time in a situation where itself can turn into a bait….This problem was overcome by active guidence whereby attacker doesn’t need to continue lit the target , its sometimes also termed as Fire and Forget….

There are various conter measures ( active and passive) that target aircraft can take to avoid a hit on the butt….These may include various manoeuvres to break lock , jamming of the radar itself , spoofing, breaking the ( data) link , use of CHAFFs and many more measures depending upon the missiles type/ guidance etc….

While there is no doubt that BVR poses a formidable threat, but one can beat the system by taking timely, well planned and intelligently executed counter measures…

 

[el nino]

in Reply to Blain.

The reason articles like this " pakistans Air imbalance" arise from RESPECTED RETIRED AIR CHEIF MARSHALLS is as follows.....

1. PAFs best most modern combat plane today is the small fleet of 3rd generation F16 block 15. A small force of 44 planes...

The rest is 170 F7P/PG a chinease MIG21 supplied to PAF IN THE 1990s
and mix of 150+ vintage mirage 3/5 which have had upgrades to keep them fl;ying well into their 4th decade..

2. PAF DID not have a operational BVR until AMRAAM was ordered last year. India has deployed BVR missles on 4 different fighters 4th generation SU30 MKI, 3rd generation mirage2000 & mig29 AND even on their vintage mig21 BISONS.

3. india,s air power superoirity is not limited to BVR or nos of 4th generation planes which is 4-1 in favour of india it goes much deeper...

massive ar transport capability 10- 1 in india,s favour

huge nos of airfields over 4 times the geopgraphy

moderns radars like GREEN PINE & AEROSTAT from israel

air refullers il76 allowing long range missions

advanced SAM missles like s300 akash and barak

And finally AERO INDIA the largest air show in ASIA has india invites the 50 most important aviation players globally to interact with india in all spheres ranging from military to space to commercial.

INDIA IS A BIG PLAYER IN AVIATION TODAY AND IN THE FUTURE...

you can,t really compare a small aviation power/country like pakistan against the massive indian air force and aviation sector.