aircraft——J-10 vs F-22 (lol wat?)

[That Guy]

You are behind the times as well as being ignorant. And I said that kindly.

Do you see that little dingleberry on the underside of the F-22? It is a device called a radar enhancer, designed upon the lens principle. Called 'luneberg lens'.

RCS Radar Cross Section, Lüneberg Reflector lensref - Luneburg radar


On the F-22, the device look like this...

The B-2, F-117, F-22, and F-35 routinely fly with enhancer to assist air traffic controllers and to mask their true RCS values, which are much lower without enhancers.

What this mean is that in that exercise, if enhanced F-22s flew against opponents, it it to train those opponents on what to expect when flying against true 'stealth' fighters versus 'normal' fighters.

You are too late to the game. This have been around for a long time.


Is that a bad thing?

I asked for a source, I didn't ask for your rude tongue. If you wanted to insult me, you shouldn't have replied at all. Besides, the facts you provided me with, don't actually debunk the claims made by the Germans. I want a source telling me whether or not the Germans were lying when they said that they "shot" down the F-22s or not.

I don't care if the F-22 was running on 10% power, did the Germans "shoot" down the planes or not?

 

[gambit]

I asked for a source, I didn't ask for your rude tongue. If you wanted to insult me, you shouldn't have replied at all. Besides, the source you provided me with shows and the facts always, don't actually debunk the claims made by the Germans. I want a source telling me whether or not the Germans were lying when they said that they "shot" down the F-22s or not.

I will try to explain this to you: A chain of logic does not need a source.

I showed you a device that enhances the radar cross section of the body that carries it. I showed you how the F-22 carries that device. I showed you HUD camera shots that have the F-22 flying with that device. A reasonable logical conclusion is that during that exercise, an enhanced F-22 was targeted by its opponent. The Germans or the French or whoever did not lie. They told the truth but they also omitted another truth.

If you did not know that such a device exist, that is being ignorant about it and there is nothing insulting about it. I am ignorant of many things and I have no problem listing them.

 

[That Guy]

I will try to explain this to you: A chain of logic does not need a source.

I showed you a device that enhances the radar cross section of the body that carries it. I showed you how the F-22 carries that device. I showed you HUD camera shots that have the F-22 flying with that device. A reasonable logical conclusion is that during that exercise, an enhanced F-22 was targeted by its opponent. The Germans or the French or whoever did not lie. They told the truth but they also omitted another truth.

If you did not know that such a device exist, that is being ignorant about it and there is nothing insulting about it. I am ignorant of many things and I have no problem listing them.

Then what is the problem? Why is your comment so defensive? I may not have known about this device, but it still doesn't change my original point, the F-22 was shot down by what many people claim is an inferior fighter

And as for the "ignorant" comment, whether or not you were being rude, I suggest you refrain from such comments in the future. Who knows, you may end up angering a mod.

 

[jhungary]

Then what is the problem? Why is your comment so defensive? I may not have known about this device, but it still doesn't change my original point, the F-22 was shot down by what many people claim is an inferior fighter

And as for the "ignorant" comment, whether or not you were being rude, I suggest you refrain from such comments in the future. Who knows, you may end up angering a mod.

To be honestly, the German pilot did say they stripe the Typhoon to slick (No drop tank, no missile) in order to win the fight. If you would read the comment on the reference page you supply, you should see.

How useful if you enter enemy airspace and contest said airspace when you get in without any external tank or missile??

If you have to set the requirement to kill F-22, of course you can find some when the situation is extremely favour the other side and extremely unfavor the F-22, then you would see it lose, but does it actually the way it always happen in the real world??

If that do, then I guess no point destroyer having CIWS and missile defence together, you would just pick one if war actually did broke out according to your script.

 

[That Guy]

To be honestly, the German pilot did say they stripe the Typhoon to slick (No drop tank, no missile) in order to win the fight. If you would read the comment on the reference page you supply, you should see.

How useful if you enter enemy airspace and contest said airspace when you get in without any external tank or missile??

If you have to set the requirement to kill F-22, of course you can find some when the situation is extremely favour the other side and extremely unfavor the F-22, then you would see it lose, but does it actually the way it always happen in the real world??

If that do, then I guess no point destroyer having CIWS and missile defence together, you would just pick one if war actually did broke out according to your script.

Again, I see your point, I'm not denying it. Having said that, my point still stands.

 

[jhungary]

Again, I see your point, I'm not denying it. Having said that, my point still stands.

The point being, you cannot say what is inferior and what is superior when you are that close, doing dogfight. When you get that close, it's 50/50 chance on any aircraft vs any aircraft.

Technology advance will only give you an edge when you cannot see each other, if you are talking about dogfight range, you are coming down to the basic level, where which pilot is better, wins, loser died. Stealth, thrust vectoring does not do you any good when you can literally spot the F-22 from your cockpit.

Well, unless your aircraft can teleport out of your visual sight. Well, then probably that's different.

How you can meet a F-22 face to face, that would be whole another question altogether.

 

[That Guy]

The point being, you cannot say what is inferior and what is superior when you are that close, doing dogfight. When you get that close, it's 50/50 chance on any aircraft vs any aircraft.

Technology advance will only give you an edge when you cannot see each other, if you are talking about dogfight range, you are coming down to the basic level, where which pilot is better, wins, loser died. Stealth, thrust vectoring does not do you any good when you can literally spot the F-22 from your window.

How you can meet a F-22 face to face, that would be whole another question altogether.

Oh, I'm not saying it's inferior, but the general consensus is that it is not as good as the F-22. I completely agree with you, but again, my point is that it was shot down regardless of the circumstances. Really, it's as simple as that. Call me ignorant, but that's really all I care about right now.

Anyways, let's just drop the subject altogether. I posted a funny video, just enjoy it.

 

[jhungary]

Oh, I'm not saying it's inferior, but the general consensus is that it is not as good as the F-22. I completely agree with you, but again, my point is that it was shot down regardless of the circumstances. Really, it's as simple as that. Call me ignorant, but that's really all I care about right now.

Anyways, let's just drop the subject altogether. I posted a funny video, just enjoy it.

You fail to see my point.......

What you assume is F-22, being "Superior" by US claim, was shot down by a "Inferior" Eurofighter lighting.

My point is, all the technology in the world can only make you further away from getting into a dogfight, after that, you are on your own.

Dogfight essentially take away ALL the technological advancement of a fighter and pitch it bare with 2 pilots duelling. In another word, it DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE PLANES ANYMORE, IT's MORE ABOUT THE PILOT.

You can be a whole generation ahead by you can still kill or be killed in a dogfight, there were this interesting example where a US NAVY A-1 Sky raider, A PROP DRIVEN Mono-Plane, shot down 2 Mig-17, A SECOND GENERATION JET FIGHTER on two separate occasion.

MIG 17 Shot Down By Skyraider

Does that mean A-1 Skyraider is more technological advance than Mig-17??

All the tech on the F-22 are designed for the pilot NOT to get into a dogfight, which will negate ALL their advantage. When you talk about dogfight, IT IS NOT ABOUT THE PLANE ANYMORE, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE PILOT.

This is my point.

 

[That Guy]

You fail to see my point.......

What you assume is F-22, being "Superior" by US claim, was shot down by a "Inferior" Eurofighter lighting.

My point is, all the technology in the world can only make you further away from getting into a dogfight, after that, you are on your own.

Dogfight essentially take away ALL the technological advancement of a fighter and pitch it bare with 2 pilots duelling. In another word, it DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE PLANES ANYMORE, IT's MORE ABOUT THE PILOT.

You can be a whole generation ahead by you can still kill or be killed in a dogfight, there were this interesting example where a US NAVY A-1 Sky raider, A PROP DRIVEN Mono-Plane, shot down 2 Mig-17, A FIRST GENERATION JET FIGHTER on two separate occasion.

MIG 17 Shot Down By Skyraider

Does that mean A-1 Skyraider is more technological advance than Mig-17??

All the tech on the F-22 are designed for the pilot NOT to get into a dogfight, which will negate ALL their advantage. When you talk about dogfight, IT IS NOT ABOUT THE PLANE ANYMORE, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE PILOT.

This is my point.

No, I see it, but like I said, I just don't care right now.

Please, just drop the subject. It's way off the thread topic. Enjoy the video.

 

[gambit]

Then what is the problem? Why is your comment so defensive? I may not have known about this device, but it still doesn't change my original point, the F-22 was shot down by what many people claim is an inferior fighter

And as for the "ignorant" comment, whether or not you were being rude, I suggest you refrain from such comments in the future. Who knows, you may end up angering a mod.

Because with enhancer installed, the F-22 essentially ALLOWED the other fighter the shoot. It does not matter if the other fighter is technically inferior or not.

- If Mike Tyson have both hands tied and you knocked him out, does that mean you are the equal of Mike Tyson?

This is what I have been trying to explained to you: That the exercise was RIGGED.

There is nothing wrong with a rigged exercise. Instructor pilots do it all the time and they often lose to their students. Instructor pilots often set themselves up in inferior positions and show the student on how to maintain his superior position. If the student is good enough, he will 'shoot down' the instructor. But does that mean the student is the equal of the instructor?

Sometimes an exercise is rigged to have a predetermined winner and there is nothing wrong with that either. One side is given all kinds of advantages, from equipment to manpower, to absolutely defeat the other side. This is to instruct the losing side on how to deal with unplanned situations or to learn how to fight a retreat.

So when this F-22 flew into an exercise with enhancer installed, it is a rigged fight.

I cannot believe how this is so difficult to understand...

 

[That Guy]

Because with enhancer installed, the F-22 essentially ALLOWED the other fighter the shoot. It does not matter if the other fighter is technically inferior or not.

- If Mike Tyson have both hands tied and you knocked him out, does that mean you are the equal of Mike Tyson?

This is what I have been trying to explained to you: That the exercise was RIGGED.

There is nothing wrong with a rigged exercise. Instructor pilots do it all the time and they often lose to their students. Instructor pilots often set themselves up in inferior positions and show the student on how to maintain his superior position. If the student is good enough, he will 'shoot down' the instructor. But does that mean the student is the equal of the instructor?

Sometimes an exercise is rigged to have a predetermined winner and there is nothing wrong with that either. One side is given all kinds of advantages, from equipment to manpower, to absolutely defeat the other side. This is to instruct the losing side on how to deal with unplanned situations or to learn how to fight a retreat.

So when this F-22 flew into an exercise with enhancer installed, it is a rigged fight.

I cannot believe how this is so difficult to understand...

The exercise wasn't rigged, it just had a different rule set. I doubt the US military would purposefully arrange for the F-22 to lose. Remember the fallout because of the exercise itself? People started calling the F-22 a waste of money because of it.

Anyways, I completely understand the point you're making, but whether it was rigged or not, I don't care. The point is that a kill is a kill.

Look, I posted a cute childish video that I thought people would enjoy, obviously you don't. Just move on, I don't care. Like you said, this is old news.

 

[gambit]

The exercise wasn't rigged, it just had a different rule set.

Which mean it could be rigged.

I doubt the US military would purposefully arrange for the F-22 to lose. Remember the fallout because of the exercise itself? People started calling the F-22 a waste of money because of it.

Public opinion does not dictate weapons development.

Look at it this way...Now that YOU, a member of the public, is further educated on what really happened. Do YOU still thinks the F-22 is a waste of money because it was 'shot down' in a rigged exercise?

Anyways, I completely understand the point you're making, but whether it was rigged or not, I don't care. The point is that a kill is a kill.

Then you are being dishonest with yourself. Now you know better, but you still cling on to the false belief that the F-22 was 'shot'.

 

[Jango]

Instructor pilots do it all the time and they often lose to their students. Instructor pilots often set themselves up in inferior positions and show the student on how to maintain his superior position. If the student is good enough, he will 'shoot down' the instructor. But does that mean the student is the equal of the instructor?

Does the student know that the fight is rigged?

 

[That Guy]

Which mean it could be rigged.


Public opinion does not dictate weapons development.

Look at it this way...Now that YOU, a member of the public, is further educated on what really happened. Do YOU still thinks the F-22 is a waste of money because it was 'shot down' in a rigged exercise?


Then you are being dishonest with yourself. Now you know better, but you still cling on to the false belief that the F-22 was 'shot'.

I've never thought the F-22 was a waste of money, don't assume that I ever thought otherwise. I think the F-35 is a waste, but that's just me...probably.

Look, just enjoy the damn cartoon, or leave. I've tried being nice with you, but you're being too unreasonably pushy now. Just stop.

 

[dbc]

Can someone example to me what the **** is happening? xD

Can't see the video YouTube tells me "Unfortunately, this SME-music-content is not available in Germany because GEMA has not granted the respective music publishing rights."