Airblue flight 202 & the psyche of Pakistani leaders

[Falcon26]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @Chak Bamu

I have seen you guys, especially @JamD detail the arrogance displayed by Pakistani leadership in military-industrial complex, and how such culture undermines creativity, innovation and free-thinking. I came across this documentary on the crash of Airblue flight 202 on YouTube, and it’s said investigators believe a big reason for the crash had to do with the captain’s arrogant treatment of the first officer.

From the get-go, the captain engaged what investigators called a “humiliation session,” forcing the first officer to withdraw into a mental prison, where he couldn’t correct the captain. Even when he ultimately tries to correct the captain, he was brushed aside. Similar interventions by the ground controllers were dismissed with “let them keep talking,” even as the plane was in serious danger of crashing. 152 people died because the captain couldn’t believe he could be wrong and that subordinates could be right.

I have read @JamD talk about this sort of arrogance and watching this documentary, I couldn’t help but think of his anecdotes. I really hope such culture changes, but even on this forum, one sees questionable “seniors” given a pass for infringements junior members are promptly punished for. it’s a sad state of affairs, but I hope with people routinely pushing back against this toxic culture, that change will come.

I highly recommend people to watch this documentary.

 

[nahtanbob]

Regarding troubles in the air I recommend watching

they were lucky to have hell of a pilot

 

[nahtanbob]

Airblue flight pilot was incompetent and unprofessional

 

[SQ8]

Airblue flight pilot was incompetent and unprofessional

He was a product of Pakistani toxicity. The epitome of why Pakistan has a rotten professional culture.

 

[STREANH]

There is something called as Crew resource management training (CRM) that has to be followed regardless of seniority to avoid such manmade disasters.

 

[TNT]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @Chak Bamu

I have seen you guys, especially @JamD detail the arrogance displayed by Pakistani leadership in military-industrial complex, and how such culture undermines creativity, innovation and free-thinking. I came across this documentary on the crash of Airblue flight 202 on YouTube, and it’s said investigators believe a big reason for the crash had to do with the captain’s arrogant treatment of the first officer.

From the get-go, the captain engaged what investigators called a “humiliation session,” forcing the first officer to withdraw into a mental prison, where he couldn’t correct the captain. Even when he ultimately tries to correct the captain, he was brushed aside. Similar interventions by the ground controllers were dismissed with “let them keep talking,” even as the plane was in serious danger of crashing. 152 people died because the captain couldn’t believe he could be wrong and that subordinates could be right.

I have read @JamD talk about this sort of arrogance and watching this documentary, I couldn’t help but think of his anecdotes. I really hope such culture changes, but even on this forum, one sees questionable “seniors” given a pass for infringements junior members are promptly punished for. it’s a sad state of affairs, but I hope with people routinely pushing back against this toxic culture, that change will come.

I highly recommend people to watch this documentary.

It has alot to do with culture. People here think that correcting somone=beizati. There was this professor explaining something wrong and i corrected him (which he didnt agree with but later had to). This professor, who even studied abroad took that as a beizati and became my enemy. I didn't even realize it untill others told me. So even highly educated act like baboons here. Imagine what they do with colleagues and subordinates who try to correct them.

 

[Wolfhunter]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @Chak Bamu

I have seen you guys, especially @JamD detail the arrogance displayed by Pakistani leadership in military-industrial complex, and how such culture undermines creativity, innovation and free-thinking. I came across this documentary on the crash of Airblue flight 202 on YouTube, and it’s said investigators believe a big reason for the crash had to do with the captain’s arrogant treatment of the first officer.

From the get-go, the captain engaged what investigators called a “humiliation session,” forcing the first officer to withdraw into a mental prison, where he couldn’t correct the captain. Even when he ultimately tries to correct the captain, he was brushed aside. Similar interventions by the ground controllers were dismissed with “let them keep talking,” even as the plane was in serious danger of crashing. 152 people died because the captain couldn’t believe he could be wrong and that subordinates could be right.

I have read @JamD talk about this sort of arrogance and watching this documentary, I couldn’t help but think of his anecdotes. I really hope such culture changes, but even on this forum, one sees questionable “seniors” given a pass for infringements junior members are promptly punished for. it’s a sad state of affairs, but I hope with people routinely pushing back against this toxic culture, that change will come.

I highly recommend people to watch this documentary.

Really tragic, this is the first time I have heard about this awful incident. Also this highlights a classic case of what we call "Hubris Syndrome" in the UK;

Hubris syndrome: An acquired personality disorder? A study of US Presidents and UK Prime Ministers over the last 100 years

‘The history of madness is the history of power. Because it imagines power, madness is both impotence and omnipotence. It requires power to control it. Threaten

academic.oup.com

 

[Genghis khan1]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @Chak Bamu

I have seen you guys, especially @JamD detail the arrogance displayed by Pakistani leadership in military-industrial complex, and how such culture undermines creativity, innovation and free-thinking. I came across this documentary on the crash of Airblue flight 202 on YouTube, and it’s said investigators believe a big reason for the crash had to do with the captain’s arrogant treatment of the first officer.

From the get-go, the captain engaged what investigators called a “humiliation session,” forcing the first officer to withdraw into a mental prison, where he couldn’t correct the captain. Even when he ultimately tries to correct the captain, he was brushed aside. Similar interventions by the ground controllers were dismissed with “let them keep talking,” even as the plane was in serious danger of crashing. 152 people died because the captain couldn’t believe he could be wrong and that subordinates could be right.

I have read @JamD talk about this sort of arrogance and watching this documentary, I couldn’t help but think of his anecdotes. I really hope such culture changes, but even on this forum, one sees questionable “seniors” given a pass for infringements junior members are promptly punished for. it’s a sad state of affairs, but I hope with people routinely pushing back against this toxic culture, that change will come.

I highly recommend people to watch this documentary.

It’s the culture fault. This “Respect your elders” = Zero accountability and brotherhood/helping friends n family = nepotism and corruption.

 

[PradoTLC]

competence and ego are major issues facing Pakistani work force

 

[313ghazi]

Takes you right back to Victorian Britain, or more accurately, the culture of Victorian era officers in the Colony of British India.

 

[_NOBODY_]

It has alot to do with culture. People here think that correcting somone=beizati. There was this professor explaining something wrong and i corrected him (which he didnt agree with but later had to). This professor, who even studied abroad took that as a beizati and became my enemy. I didn't even realize it untill others told me. So even highly educated act like baboons here. Imagine what they do with colleagues and subordinates who try to correct them.

It's the same in almost all of our universities. So many of our people have this god complex in our country that they can never be wrong and this can be seen very commonly in our professors, correcting professors is perceived as disrespecting them by these incredibly arrogant professors of ours. @MastanKhan and @Chak Bamu also shared their experience with such professors. @Goenitz This is why we have to be extremely diplomatic with our professors, if we end up offending them then they punish us by deducting our marks for no reason, I have seen this happen so many times.

 

[JamD]

As all the posts so obviously point out, it's something deep rooted in our culture. Everyone has these experiences frequently.

Why we have that culture, I can't say for sure. Maybe it's the colonial hangover (and I don't just mean the British). Or it is something that we get from the caste-system that South Asia used to/still does have. An anthropologist or sociologist can shed better light on this.

Also, I don't think cultures change quickly. At the very least it takes many generations. So, I think we need to have rules and procedures specifically keeping this aspect of our culture in mind. I don't think this is an impossible task. We can't just take procedures from the west and apply it within the context of our culture. Obviously, not saying our culture is better in this regard, just attempting to be a realist.

 

[313ghazi]

As all the posts so obviously point out, it's something deep rooted in our culture. Everyone has these experiences frequently.

Why we have that culture, I can't say for sure. Maybe it's the colonial hangover (and I don't just mean the British). Or it is something that we get from the caste-system that South Asia used to/still does have. An anthropologist or sociologist can shed better light on this.

Also, I don't think cultures change quickly. At the very least it takes many generations. So, I think we need to have rules and procedures specifically keeping this aspect of our culture in mind. I don't think this is an impossible task. We can't just take procedures from the west and apply it within the context of our culture. Obviously, not saying our culture is better in this regard, just attempting to be a realist.

What we need is an import of foreign working culture. It'd change within a generation. If Overseas Pakistani's settled in Pakistan you'd see the working culture change big time. Also in the IT sector it's changing.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What we need is an import of foreign working culture. It'd change within a generation. If Overseas Pakistani's settled in Pakistan you'd see the working culture change big time. Also in the IT sector it's changing.

The issue is that the guys running Pakistan don't want that working culture.

This is the actual problem. The folks running Pakistan -- be it military, politician, bureaucrat, etc -- are all due a major dressing down by those who've actually achieved things in their lives. The best part is that the ones running the country know that, which is why they're doing their best to prevent it. They know they're not qualified to be in their positions, yet they don't feel an iota of humility or shame.

Qualified people live with imposter syndrome, which is why we strive to do better and absorb feedback, no matter where it comes from. Yet our leaders (speaking broadly here) don't have this trait. This is a reason why we see this toxic mentality. It deserves a total dressing down.

These days, I'm not in the mood to 'correct' these guys. They ruined a country and the destinies of hundreds of millions of people. If I ever speak to them, it'll be to destroy their self-confidence to a level where they'll never, ever, show their faces in public again. I've had enough.

 

[_NOBODY_]

As all the posts so obviously point out, it's something deep rooted in our culture. Everyone has these experiences frequently.

Why we have that culture, I can't say for sure. Maybe it's the colonial hangover (and I don't just mean the British). Or it is something that we get from the caste-system that South Asia used to/still does have. An anthropologist or sociologist can shed better light on this.

Also, I don't think cultures change quickly. At the very least it takes many generations. So, I think we need to have rules and procedures specifically keeping this aspect of our culture in mind. I don't think this is an impossible task. We can't just take procedures from the west and apply it within the context of our culture. Obviously, not saying our culture is better in this regard, just attempting to be a realist.

In my humble opinion, Pakistan becoming a corporatocracy is the only thing that can change this culture.

The issue is that the guys running Pakistan don't want that working culture.

This is the actual problem. The folks running Pakistan -- be it military, politician, bureaucrat, etc -- are all due a major dressing down by those who've actually achieved things in their lives. The best part is that the ones running the country know that, which is why they're doing their best to prevent it. They know they're not qualified to be in their positions, yet they don't feel an iota of humility or shame.

Qualified people live with imposter syndrome, which is why we strive to do better and absorb feedback, no matter where it comes from. Yet our leaders (speaking broadly here) don't have this trait. This is a reason why we see this toxic mentality. It deserves a total dressing down.

These days, I'm not in the mood to 'correct' these guys. They ruined a country and the destinies of hundreds of millions of people. If I ever speak to them, it'll be to destroy their self-confidence to a level where they'll never, ever, show their faces in public again. I've had enough.

Money is very powerful, money can eventually change this culture as the private sector continues to grow.