Air power on the cheap

[Sinnerman108]

Not a bad notion, but waves of drones will tell an enemy that you are interested in a particular target area, prompting reinforcements and possibly manned aircraft.

Sometimes, the best mission is get in fast, do the job, get out, without tipping your hand.

See it this way;

30 minutes ahead of strike time, just send in the little buggers and deplete defences in that region;
and then send in the big boys.

But hey, I will just do it to drive the defences crazy; over load them and for frustration.

If I can beat the brain, I will beat the body.

 

[Chogy]

See it this way;

30 minutes ahead of strike time, just send in the little buggers and deplete defences in that region;
and then send in the big boys.

But hey, I will just do it to drive the defences crazy; over load them and for frustration.

If I can beat the brain, I will beat the body.

I like the concept, but realize that the drones would probably need to have a flight profile very close to the manned strike aircraft... 500 knots plus, and maneuvering that "looks like" a manned aircraft. A crew operating a modern search radar can easily differentiate between a slow, cheap, propeller drone, and a jet. So to get the drone to perform like a fighter, now you're looking at a turbine-powered cruise missile. You may as well add a warhead and have it attack!

I think drones that could tempt a SAM crew to fire would be pretty darned expensive. But the concept is sound, it just needs to be executed properly with the right decoy.

 

[amalakas]

I like the concept, but realize that the drones would probably need to have a flight profile very close to the manned strike aircraft... 500 knots plus, and maneuvering that "looks like" a manned aircraft. A crew operating a modern search radar can easily differentiate between a slow, cheap, propeller drone, and a jet. So to get the drone to perform like a fighter, now you're looking at a turbine-powered cruise missile. You may as well add a warhead and have it attack!

I think drones that could tempt a SAM crew to fire would be pretty darned expensive. But the concept is sound, it just needs to be executed properly with the right decoy.

gentlemen

i give you MALDs... they are already in use.

 

[Sinnerman108]

gentlemen

i give you MALDs... they are already in use.

ARGHHHH
RATS !

just when I thought I was going to be rich !

MALD isn't all what we are talking about, similar but not the same.

and oh btw, Choggy,
It is not necessary for the decoy/ drone to fly that fast, nor is it necessary for it to be big enough. for two reasons.

1. For a country which also possesses cruise missiles, such a decoy will confuse the enemy further if it is not a war plane, then a cruise missile.
Please keep in mind that most of the Air defence systems would automatically lock and engage targets during war times; and these systems use software with the same algorithms that we know about.
So it will be so much fun to drive them crazy AND steal money

Also understand that any AD (air defence) system / SAM system, even if it is smart enough to recognize this, will have hard wired pattern recognition, some thing that is not easily updated.
Whereas the Decoy ... .. fully dynamic

2. Contrary to radar absorbent; welcome highly radar reflective material and smart flight paths.
See a small turbo fan engine is cheap; one can have these manufactured for no more than 5000 USD / unit. so if you have a smart decoy which uses a highly reflective material and swoops and swirls around, causing an illusion of speed
Forget about lift etc, you can have razor sharp wings and an over shape as close to bullet shape as possible.

voila !

Damn, I am good !

 

[amalakas]

ARGHHHH
RATS !

just when I thought I was going to be rich !

MALD isn't all what we are talking about, similar but not the same.

and oh btw, Choggy,
It is not necessary for the decoy/ drone to fly that fast, nor is it necessary for it to be big enough. for two reasons.

1. For a country which also possesses cruise missiles, such a decoy will confuse the enemy further if it is not a war plane, then a cruise missile.
Please keep in mind that most of the Air defence systems would automatically lock and engage targets during war times; and these systems use software with the same algorithms that we know about.
So it will be so much fun to drive them crazy AND steal money

Also understand that any AD (air defence) system / SAM system, even if it is smart enough to recognize this, will have hard wired pattern recognition, some thing that is not easily updated.
Whereas the Decoy ... .. fully dynamic

2. Contrary to radar absorbent; welcome highly radar reflective material and smart flight paths.
See a small turbo fan engine is cheap; one can have these manufactured for no more than 5000 USD / unit. so if you have a smart decoy which uses a highly reflective material and swoops and swirls around, causing an illusion of speed
Forget about lift etc, you can have razor sharp wings and an over shape as close to bullet shape as possible.

voila !

Damn, I am good !

you mean like this ?

ADM-160B/C MALD

 

[Tang0]

you mean like this ?

ADM-160B/C MALD

And it only costs 30,000$...
Miniature Air-Launched Decoy (MALD)

 

[Sinnerman108]

^^^^



I am not going to be rich .... no patents in my name

and both of you just have to rub it in ...

btw, isnt' what you quoted primarily a radar jamming decoy ?

 

[amalakas]

^^^^



I am not going to be rich .... no patents in my name

and both of you just have to rub it in ...

btw, isnt' what you quoted primarily a radar jamming decoy ?

When it flies it has the capacity to emulate the profile of a fighter plane and its signature, it has a high loiter time and if especially used at night there is no way for a normal defence network to tell if it's a proper air raid or decoys..

 

[500]

How about the Grand Daddy of Close Air Support???The Su-25.It is like a tank flying in the air.

Su-25 (and A-10) are only good in COIN operations. Even against weak opponent like Georgia Russia lost 4 of them in 2 days.

Insurgency can also be very different. Rotor aicrafts are good against weak insurgencies like some drug dealers in Columbia jungles. But against insurgency like Hezbollah with concrete bunkers, modern MANPADS, fiber optic communication etc I fear even A-10 wont be enough.

Also armed UAVs are best solution: they are relatively cheap, have very long endurance and absolutely safe for their pilots.

 

[Chogy]

I disagree, 500. We've had this discussion before, I think. The Iraqis in 1991 had an extremely dense AD system, everything from small arms, MANPADS, to Crotale, manned fighters, other systems.

The A-10's not only survived, they thrived. They were engineered to fight in a heavily mechanized and intense European theater vs. the Soviets. Are you claiming the engineers and planners were fools to produce this aircraft for that mission?

 

[500]

Are you claiming the engineers and planners were fools to produce this aircraft for that mission?

A-10 was designed in pre UAV, LANTIRN, K band radar, Maverick D, Hellfire, BLU-108... era.

 

[Chogy]

A-10 was designed in pre UAV, LANTIRN, K band radar, Maverick D, Hellfire, BLU-108... era.

UAV's cannot replace an A-10 armed with multiple Mavericks and a GAU-8 (plus a human who can act independently, and quickly) when dealing with enemy armor or emplacements.

LANTIRN, Helfire, BLU-108 - these have nothing to do with A-10 vulnerabilities. The objection is that these (A-10's, Su-25) are too vulnerable, and you list offensive weapons? That makes no sense.

Any CAS needs to be accompanied by air superiority (temporary or permanent) and appropriate countermeasures for remaining AD... HARM, ECM, flares, etc.

There is internal armor (a lot of it) in the A-10. A 23mm shell cannot penetrate the cockpit area from below. They are survivable, agile, and effective, made even more so by a new generation of intelligent offensive weapons.

 

[Tang0]

UAV's cannot replace an A-10 armed with multiple Mavericks and a GAU-8 (plus a human who can act independently, and quickly) when dealing with enemy armor or emplacements.

LANTIRN, Helfire, BLU-108 - these have nothing to do with A-10 vulnerabilities. The objection is that these (A-10's, Su-25) are too vulnerable, and you list offensive weapons? That makes no sense.

Any CAS needs to be accompanied by air superiority (temporary or permanent) and appropriate countermeasures for remaining AD... HARM, ECM, flares, etc.

There is internal armor (a lot of it) in the A-10. A 23mm shell cannot penetrate the cockpit area from below. They are survivable, agile, and effective, made even more so by a new generation of intelligent offensive weapons.

The OV-10's last hurrah was in the gulf war, where several fell prey to MANPADS systems. The A-10's had functional IR countermeasures which allowed them to dodge most of the missiles, and enough armor to survive a hit with a warhead from a MANPADS system. The OV-10 had neither, and so was retired soon after.

The A-10 has a much larger role to play than just COIN, it is designed from the ground up as a tank hunter, designed to survive in a ZSU-23 and SA-7/14 filled environment.

An intact and functional modern air defense system with S-300MPU-2's and S-400's, along with SU-35/27 or equivalent western fighters would eat A-10's for lunch.

But, given the fact that the US is the worlds' only A-10 user, and given the USAF/USN's demonstrated capacity to eviscerate air defense networks, I don't think the above scenario is very likely...

 

[Inception-06]

Good evening Gents and Ladies


Which Aircraft Pakistan Air Force is using in COIN ? If F-16 than why not the K-8 and A-5 Fantan ? (I know it is phased out but, that should be a reason to use it against Militants.... Cheaper than a F-16 ?)

 

[Black Eagle 90]

Air power on the cheap

Interesting article. Makes sense, does it not? So why need super-jets when simple turboprops can do the same COIN job better and more economically.



AT-802U

I've seen this cropduster in action (I believe it was this aircraft) spraying pesticides on fields - a lumbering graceful flight! Its an awesome plane.

IAF should buy it to replace MiG-21s.... Lolz...

One day we will going to hear the news that India is no more...

I am not seeing India as a country by 2015.