Air Force Question Thread

[MastanKhan]

Hi Webmaster,

Please kindly let us know why is this thread open? Somebody puts in a one liner----has no say about the issue from his own research and you let it roll.

Isn't it against the posting rules on starting a new thread!!!

 

[z9-ec]

Oh come on. Seriously, F-22 vs Su-30. Thats like an elephant being compared with girafe.

Further more, comments on YouTube are unreliable and it's basically like Wikipedia where anyone could brag about anything. Like me being the Prince of Bel Air.

The video here in question is the briefing given with regards to MKI which revealed some serious flaws.

 

[Super Falcon]

there is not much of difference in both birds but what make makes f 16 perfect is its experienced in most wars and came victorious

 

[batmannow]

there is not much of difference in both birds but what make makes f 16 perfect is its experienced in most wars and came victorious

sure but its gona be obsolute some day, and time will pass forward!
its always a man behind maschine!
i hounrly accept SU30MKI, surly superior thn f-16's, but PAF have the edge , when it comes to man.

 

[superbikez]

lol guess what i open defence.pk and saw this thread F16 and MKI comp i really happy wow wat a nice thread after thn im shocked oh damn its my TOPIC lolzzz

anways nice replyzz

 

[batmannow]

lol guess what i open defence.pk and saw this thread F16 and MKI comp i really happy wow wat a nice thread after thn im shocked oh damn its my TOPIC lolzzz

anways nice replyzz

keep tryin.... you will become good some day!

 

[Muradk]

Guys, it is not wise to compare F-16 and MKI in military exercises. These military exercises are only for learning from one another, not to show which one is better.

Technically, if you put F-16 and MKI side-by-side, MKI is superior, no two ways about it.

To cut long story short, MKI has radar with a greater detection range, higher jamming immunity and better maneuverability compared to F-16

Better maneuverability compared to F-16 lets see.

Jet plunges deep into a post-stall envelope, a realm where many would lose control and plummet into a ground. But for this jet with the pairs of Thrust-Vectoring nozzles and an ear-shattering thrust-to-power ratio, such a maneuver is all but a routine. Neatly pitching its nose up, over and beyond the vertical, the jet seemingly defies the physics of flight.
The concept of developing post-stall maneuverability into a new blend of fighter tactics is not new. It was first explored in earnest in the late 1970s, under the guidance of German engg Wolfgang Herbst.
Despite what the air-show audience might perceive they are seeing, the thrust-vectoring nozzle provides no magic wand for manipulating a combat aircraft’s performance. It does not allow a fighter with a pathetic turn rate to mysteriously halve its turn radius. Engineering studies have established that TV ( thrust-vectoring ) techniques have minimal impact on a fighter’s turn rate under typical modern air combat fight conditions, regardless of weather turn rate is measured on a sustained or an instantaneous basis. Adding TV nozzles will not improve the jet’s acceleration. Such measures of fighter performance as specific excess power, time to altitude, or climb rate, depend heavily on thrust-to-power ratio, something which TV technology does nothing to enhance. If anything , the extra weight of a TV engine nozzle may harm many of these traditional performance measures.
The reason that the TV nozzle fails to alter performance measures, including measures for turn rate, is that TV has only an incidental effect on aircraft lift. With a few exception like STOVL aircraft- Operating at low speed- TV was never intended to be lift enhancing features, And the amount of lift force they can provide, pales in compassion to the aerodynamic lift available from the wing.
Contrary to popular perception changing the direction the jet’s nose points does not alter the flight path of the aircraft. This has been demonstrated mostly during air show performances, as it pitches its nose end-over-end, while its existing momentum continues to propel it along the original trajectory. Changing the flight path of an aircraft’s flight path without flying into the ground is a demanding task. Consider for example that the jet is undergoing even modest 5-g turn weather on a transient or a sustained basis its wing and other lifting surfaces generates a force 5 times the weight of the aircraft. A modern fighter even with Thrust-to-weight ratio that slightly exceeds one will see only marginal gains from the thrust to increase its overall lift. There is not enough thrust available, under ordinary flight conditions, to both overcome drag and contribute to lift in a meaningful way. Other than allowing the pilot to decelerate rapidly to the corner speed- Where its natural instantaneous turn performance will be at a max- TV technology will have no meaningful impact on the turn rate.
Rather being a lift enhancement device, TV nozzle is an altitude control mechanism allowing the pilot to maintain control of the aircraft deep into the post stall regime, under conditions that were previously unthinkable. This is a flight regime where the airflow over the fighter’s wings will become separated, where drag will rise precipitously, lift will decrease or even vanish. A smart F-16 pilot will wait for it to go in a TV position and take full advantage of its agility, just think for a min the weight of the SU VS the weight of the F-16. The tons of Ammo on the SU VS F-16.
You have to understand that both planes are very different in all aspects and when it will come to close quarters F-16 will have a big advantage over a huge target like SU.
Yes there is no doubt that SU being a powerful machine will not have an advantage on the F-16 if the F-16 pilot is not careful and passes him over or under him during a Dog-fight the SU can go TV and take a shot.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

If you see the videos in Youtube they have disappeared. However you can still see them at USAF pilot describes IAF Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag-08 - The DEW Line.

One should also read comments and understand about the videos.

This is the post from the forum:
_________________________________________________
Quote:
On Ex Red Flag-the You Tube video- The other side of the Coin!!

These are comments by a friend of mine-one of our top grade professional youngsters, and a participant in the recently concluded Red Flag Ex in Nellis AFB.
1. No 1vs1s were flown during the Flag,nor did they engage in Thrust Vectoring(TV) then.IvIs were flown during the sorties in Mountain Home AFB and that too on the first day only! In none of these ex were the Su ever shot down or become vulnerable(This can of course be checked on the ACMI Pod films/casettes).
2.The data rates of turn and TV with regard to the Su is grossly out- the ones on the F-22 may be closer to the truth!! The figures for the Su are very much more than that referred to in the video!!
3.The Radar of the F-22 is superior to the Su presently!
4.Fratricide by our side did take place, more due to not being networked-it occurred when the AWACS was not available(u/s) and a very poor standard of controlling by USAF controllers( terminology and accent).This was mentioned in the debrief.Surprisingly, Fratricide was present for the F-15C as well as other allied A/C. Considering that they were better networked( Link-16,IFF-Mode 4 etc), while we had nothing,it should be a matter of concern for them and not us!!
5.FOD-Take-Off separation-was 30" at Mountain Home but extended to 1min and known to all participants before the start of the Ex!!
6.Incidentally,Mission achievement ratio was higher than 90%, whereas the mission success rates were significantly lower for the USAF, inspite of us op some 20000 kms away!!
7.Our level of experience was a standard Sqn cross-section and our youngsters performed very well in the new environment and not one rule was violated.Our professional approach was very favourably commented upon.
8. In the ultimate analyses, we had a significant edge all throughout and retained it.
It appears that this video was to pep up the US industry, showing that the F-22 is the answer to the Su-30MKI and one never knows-this will be the pitch for larger orders!!

sources used from my side of the argument are from aviationweek, I think that's a lot more reliable than what is said above.

anyways, I've said this before. The americans did not use thrust vectoring on their aircraft until they reached the F/A-22 when their technology had matured. second, light aircraft like the F-16 simply do not need TVC to dogfight with a 38 ton elephant like the flanker.

the only things I see useful is the radar, even that is not necessary for today's AWAC's environment, and the range which is awesome for deep strike roles. I still would not risk flying that giant bird over SAM-infested territory.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Can someone inform me if H-2 and H-4 (120 km range) BVR missiles have been inducted for the PAF, and if our Mirage will also carry them? According to info on the web they are modified South African BVR missiles and completed testing in 2003 (developed by NESCOM).

If such weaponry is already in our arsenal why was the order for 500 AMRAAM from US placed in 2007?

Please discuss.

 

[ejaz007]

Can someone inform me if H-2 and H-4 (120 km range) BVR missiles have been inducted for the PAF, and if our Mirage will also carry them? According to info on the web they are modified South African BVR missiles and completed testing in 2003 (developed by NESCOM).

If such weaponry is already in our arsenal why was the order for 500 AMRAAM from US placed in 2007?

Please discuss.

H-2 and H-4 are for Mirages and perhaps F-7 while AIM-120 is for F-16's. We have not matted the H-2 or H-4 on the falcons. This is the information I have perhaps some one can correct me if I am wrong.

Also I believe AMRAAM is better than H-2 and H-4.

 

[ejaz007]

there is not much of difference in both birds but what make makes f 16 perfect is its experienced in most wars and came victorious

There is lots of difference between both planes. While performance of both in different scenarios may be compared technical parameters can not be compared. F-16 is a light weight multi role fighter while SU-30 falls in the heavy weight multi role fighter bomber and air superiority category. Original SU-30 was designed as an air superiority fighter however depending upon country's specific requirements has been converted into an fighter bomber and air superiority fighter.

See both planes specs and you would realize.

 

[waheedrafiq]

Salaam to all my Pakistani brothers

I am very worried about my mother land , and very concern that after 50 years of indepentants. we still can't supply the basic needs as eletric for 24 hours


I was wondering if someone can answer my question Why can't Pakistan build a war plane all by them self. or have I got this wrong.

because I can;t really see the point of buying them from USA ?

 

[General Fujita]

The reason pakistan did not build the jf-17 all by itself is because it would have been too expensive. Not only do joint ventures reduce the cost in R&D, they also bring together knowledge from different fields and perspectives making the project more efficient. Hey, you have to start off somewhere and i think that this is a great start by pakistan on the road to self-sufficientcy

 

[Chanakya.10]

The reason pakistan did not build the jf-17 all by itself is because it would have been too expensive. Not only do joint ventures reduce the cost in R&D, they also bring together knowledge from different fields and perspectives making the project more efficient. Hey, you have to start off somewhere and i think that this is a great start by pakistan on the road to self-sufficientcy

Not sarcastically as some might percieve, but may i know which specific parts of JF-17 were actually MADE in pakistan and BY pakistan???? And in which labs?????? With credible links plz if anyone can.......

 

[Imran Khan]

who say to you jf-17 is fully made in pakistan we all know its joint production engene from russia avioncs from france some parts from chaina and some parts from pakistan it will become a jf-17 don't bring here your drama its just qes thread and answers for guys wich don't know abut air force stick on topic please not highjek thread like you gus already so many thread distroy please