Air Chief Marshal Raha to visit Sweden - LCA MK2 aka Gripen IN

[Maj.Osmani]

So what happens to the plans of making the MK2 indigenously?
Why going after Gripen? This comes as a surprise to me that IAF will be looking towards to Swedes for there LCA project specially with all the talks of MK1 being a technology test bed and platform to launch to an indigenous plane.

I have no intention to troll Indian members but I often read claims by Indian members that Tejas is 4 plus Gen fighter then why they are up to inducting inferior fighter jet / tech ?

 

[dadeechi]

So what happens to the plans of making the MK2 indigenously?
Why going after Gripen? This comes as a surprise to me that IAF will be looking towards to Swedes for there LCA project specially with all the talks of MK1 being a technology test bed and platform to launch to an indigenous plane.

It is going to be a JV with SAAB for LCA MK2 which is currently scheduled to be ready only by 2024.

 

[randomradio]

So what happens to the plans of making the MK2 indigenously?
Why going after Gripen? This comes as a surprise to me that IAF will be looking towards to Swedes for there LCA project specially with all the talks of MK1 being a technology test bed and platform to launch to an indigenous plane.

We need 250 light fighters. It may be split between LCA and Gripen. A Gripen contract depends on the progress of the LCA.

 

[dadeechi]

I'm not sure, but this vague equating of LCA Mark 2 with Grippen is not correct. On paper, both fighters look to be sharing a lot of common hardware, but LCA Mk 2 is not Grippen.
If Sweden really wants to sell Grippen, the only space i can see is, future requirements of a single engine light weight fighter that will form the fleet for low cost point defence fighters.
It looks more and more likely that Rafale and MKI will be in role for Air superiority and multi role combat missions and therefore the only category where SAAB can get business is light weight fighters.
But all this leaves us with a question, in case government is showing genuine interest in Grippen ie Someone is convinced that LCA with AESA radar is best achievable scenario and therefore, parallel production of Grippen or similar platform is perhaps best course of action to meet fleet numbers.

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Joe Shearer @nair

I confirmed about this deal being imminent here

https://defence.pk/threads/india-to...tive-by-march-2017.431443/page-2#post-8323657

 

[proud_indian]

We are not getting Gripens, not now not ever

 

[dadeechi]

That's good news and bad news. Do we really want to go the partner route for technology? Engines, maybe, but even there, learning to make good engines, even low-performance low-yield engines, should be a major goal. Not just screwdriver engineering but genuinely thought through and implemented good designs.

India would get engine manufacturing tech as part of DTTI.

The JV with SAAB is for manufacturing tech as I mentioned in the below thread.

https://defence.pk/threads/hal-saab-likely-to-upgrade-tejas.428969/#post-8280272

https://defence.pk/threads/hal-saab-likely-to-upgrade-tejas.428969/

 

[Arsalan]

It is going to be a JV with SAAB for LCA MK2 which is currently scheduled to be ready only by 2024.

Why need for a JV when even MK1 was being accomplished indigenously and was reported as a test bed for new technology to be used in future projects. Now all of a sudden all that talk seems to have eased and the focus shifted to Swedes to buy that plane.
Plus sir, that wont be a JV. Gripen is already a mature project with sales to different forces done already, HAL, IF this news is true, will only by acquiring tech and equipment. Gripen do not need much more in terms of a JV with some other firm, there product is already proven is selling well.

 

[dadeechi]

Why need for a JV when even MK1 was being accomplished indigenously and was reported as a test bed for new technology to be used in future projects. Now all of a sudden all that talk seems to have eased and the focus shifted to Swedes to buy that plane.
Plus sir, that wont be a JV. Gripen is already a mature project with sales to different forces done already, HAL, IF this news is true, will only by acquiring tech and equipment. Gripen do not need much more in terms of a JV with some other firm, there product is already proven is selling well.

SAAB needs money. India needs manufacturing tech. Hence the JV.

See my post above at the following link

https://defence.pk/threads/air-chie...-mk2-aka-gripen-in.433861/page-2#post-8361922

 

[-xXx-]

Why need for a JV when even MK1 was being accomplished indigenously and was reported as a test bed for new technology to be used in future projects. Now all of a sudden all that talk seems to have eased and the focus shifted to Swedes to buy that plane.
Plus sir, that wont be a JV. Gripen is already a mature project with sales to different forces done already, HAL, IF this news is true, will only by acquiring tech and equipment. Gripen do not need much more in terms of a JV with some other firm, there product is already proven is selling well.

Tejas Mk1-A is going to be inducted in IAF in numbers excess of 100 and that doesn't need Saab, so here is the answer to your first part of question on efficiency and readiness of Tejas.

Now coming to second part, Mk2 is based on Mk1 (atleast 80 %), so that justifies the status of test bud of Mk1 and its future use. We want to better the Mk1 and want to induct some cutting edge tech to Mk2 and thats where we may need Saab.

You may now say why not do it indigenously? The answer is TIME. We are way short of time now. This single engine fighter is that area where we have chosen fast induction over doing it all by my own mentality.

 

[GURU DUTT]

nothings gonna happen all this is just a courtsey visit nothing else paid media presstitutes are just doing there bid for the pay master

 

[Arsalan]

We need 250 light fighters. It may be split between LCA and Gripen. A Gripen contract depends on the progress of the LCA.

Well this particular news is considered, there wont be any split. The LCA MK2 will be Gripen NG and that is it.That is why i raised this question.

Tejas Mk1-A is going to be inducted in IAF in numbers excess of 100 and that doesn't need Saab, so here is the answer to your first part of question on efficiency and readiness of Tejas.

WHAT question?
Just do not jump to conclusion that i am criticizing LCA only because you see my flag, here, below i have quoted my own post again. WHAT QUESTION ARE YOU ANSWERING TOO IN YOU ABOVE QUOTED LINES? Where the hell was i questioning the readiness of any thing?

Why need for a JV when even MK1 was being accomplished indigenously and was reported as a test bed for new technology to be used in future projects. Now all of a sudden all that talk seems to have eased and the focus shifted to Swedes to buy that plane.
Plus sir, that wont be a JV. Gripen is already a mature project with sales to different forces done already, HAL, IF this news is true, will only by acquiring tech and equipment. Gripen do not need much more in terms of a JV with some other firm, there product is already proven is selling well.

Now coming to second part, Mk2 is based on Mk1 (atleast 80 %), so that justifies the status of test bud of Mk1 and its future use. We want to better the Mk1 and want to induct some cutting edge tech to Mk2 and thats where we may need Saab.

That is WHAT i was asking. That with MK1 reported to be on par with 4/4+ gen planes, and being the test bed for future technologies for Mk2 (meaning that those are better then the ones on MK1) why the need for "inducting these cutting edge technologies".

Anyway, its useless, i understand that there are no logical answers here, everyone is being driven by patriotism and will jump in to defend every single stupid move that is actually either a lie or a mistake.

 

[randomradio]

Well this particular news is considered, there wont be any split. The LCA MK2 will be Gripen NG and that is it.That is why i raised this question.

Yeah, that's sort of it, but it depends on a lot of factors.

The requirement for Rafale, SH, LCA and Gripen/F-16 are interrelated. IAF needs 400 new aircraft immediately, and that can go up to 500 jets, possibly even 600, by 2027. But 400 is minimum.

This number will be split between twin engine and single engine aircraft. Now that twin engine requirement can only be one type, preferably Rafale, and the single engine can only be LCA, that's the best case scenario. But I believe politics will play a big part for any aircraft other than Rafale. The govt is using the MRCA program for two reasons, one is to build a strategic partnership with the US and the other is to build a large aerospace industry.

MoD has given the highest priority to IAF's modernization among conventional weapons.

 

[Arsalan]

Yeah, that's sort of it, but it depends on a lot of factors.

The requirement for Rafale, SH, LCA and Gripen/F-16 are interrelated. IAF needs 400 new aircraft immediately, and that can go up to 500 jets, possibly even 600, by 2027. But 400 is minimum.

This number will be split between twin engine and single engine aircraft. Now that twin engine requirement can only be one type, preferably Rafale, and the single engine can only be LCA, that's the best case scenario. But I believe politics will play a big part for any aircraft other than Rafale. The govt is using the MRCA program for two reasons, one is to build a strategic partnership with the US and the other is to build a large aerospace industry.

MoD has given the highest priority to IAF's modernization among conventional weapons.

hmmm so this is more of a political move. But would this effectively kill the LCA project? I mean if you go for a JV from the start then i understand that you can have your inputs and get a lot to learn and gain. But if you go for a mature aircraft that is already being used by different air forces, calling it a JV is merely a cover up. It is more of a procurement if you ask me. Anyway, thanks for your sensible reply.

 

[Joe Shearer]

So what happens to the plans of making the MK2 indigenously?
Why going after Gripen? This comes as a surprise to me that IAF will be looking towards to Swedes for there LCA project specially with all the talks of MK1 being a technology test bed and platform to launch to an indigenous plane.

The Gripen was honestly the closest to the Tejas. I used to be very close to the BAE team selling the Gripen to Hungary, and it was clear even then that it was just what we needed. But bringing it now makes me downright queasy.

There are evidently three notions about the Gripen in the Defence Ministry. One is to bring it in as a supplement to the Rafale medium fighter, although it is really a light fighter (it tried for the contract along with others and did very well). Another is to use it instead of the MK2. A third is to use SAAB technology to egg up whatever we do on our own for the MK2.

The first one is OK. It basically means that we recognise that we cannot produce the Tejas in the quantities needed. We will use the Tejas, whatever we can do, as a MiG21 replacement, and use the Gripen somewhere between that and the MMRCA role. That would mean that we have four steps, two too many, IMHO, Tejas, Gripen, Rafale and Su 30 MKI.
It puts the entire indigenous development drive under threat. It is so, so easy to succumb to foreign technology, whether disguised as a joint venture or blatant, and so difficult to keep moving along an indigenous path.

 

[Arsalan]

The Gripen was honestly the closest to the Tejas. I used to be very close to the BAE team selling the Gripen to Hungary, and it was clear even then that it was just what we needed. But bringing it now makes me downright queasy.

There are evidently three notions about the Gripen in the Defence Ministry. One is to bring it in as a supplement to the Rafale medium fighter, although it is really a light fighter (it tried for the contract along with others and did very well). Another is to use it instead of the MK2. A third is to use SAAB technology to egg up whatever we do on our own for the MK2.

The first one is OK. It basically means that we recognize that we cannot produce the Tejas in the quantities needed. We will use the Tejas, whatever we can do, as a MiG21 replacement, and use the Gripen somewhere between that and the MMRCA role. That would mean that we have four steps, two too many, IMHO, Tejas, Gripen, Rafale and Su 30 MKI.
It puts the entire indigenous development drive under threat. It is so, so easy to succumb to foreign technology, whether disguised as a joint venture or blatant, and so difficult to keep moving along an indigenous path.

I should have tagged you in the very first post here, It would have saved me lot of time and i could do better without all this frustration of pointless arguments in my first roza.
Was hoping someone could just step up and speak up about the realities but i understand this is quite difficult in our countries!!

Thanks for the detailed post sir.