Air C.Marshal Browne confirms MiG-21 and MiG-27 to be phased out by 2019

[MilSpec]

J-7 is just renamed mig 21.



Hell, even US uses aircraft introduced in 50s (B-52), and would continue to do so till 2040!

First it was ooh we dont operate aircrafts "introduced" in the 50's, then it became we dont operate "combat" aircrafts introduced in that decade, trainers are ok! now US bombers are ok because they are long range bombers.

 

[sancho]

under the skin both MKI and M29 UPG are out and out air sup fighter...I have a personal liking towards air sup fighters and for the the immediate threat perception for IAF, nothing 25 years ago nothing came close to dogfighting ability of Mig29 (except the su27 and f15). Agreed f16 had multirole abilities, but for me even today nothing comes close to IAF mig29 air sup strength in the immediate theater.

I have a heavy inkling to give you a post dated "i told you so " card on the MKI's numbers

I like the MKI, the Mig was never a favourite of mine, too limited in capability and geared only for a single role and even with the upgrade only a modest fighter in modern warfare. The MKI was developed as a multi role fighter and has much more benefits, but it would be nuts to make the same mistake that we did with the Jaguar. To keep producing a fighter, only because we can and not because it's useful for the future thanks to it's capabilities. Just think about it, the last Super 30s will come in 2019/20 + 30 years of minimum life = 2049/50! By then we will see mainly stealth fighters and aircrafts flying around, giving current gen fighter no chance, just like the Jaguar has no importance for IAF operations anymore, as soon as Rafale and LCA will be inducted.

 

[MilSpec]

Jags when bought were already reaching obsolescence, I doubt same is the case with MKI, And I am not disagreeing with you about the numbers that should be in IAF colors, I am just letting you know to be ready for a surprise, MKI numbers will exceed upto ~340.

 

[Kloitra]

Jags when bought were already reaching obsolescence, I doubt same is the case with MKI, And I am not disagreeing with you about the numbers that should be in IAF colors, I am just letting you know to be ready for a surprise, MKI numbers will exceed upto ~340.

????? Jaguar was introduced in 73', ordered by India in 78 and started receiving by 79'. How is that obsolescence?

 

[Cyberian]

J-7 is just renamed mig 21.

...

SIR, Chengdu J-7s is the Chinese name for Mig-21s, Next time when you come to troll, please have complete facts with you..........


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-7

...

But the Mig-21 is a Soviet Union combat aircraft and the J-7 is a Chinese combat aircraft. Although there was a technology transfer, they are different aircrafts. As the Soviets did not transfer the technology fully, China had to invent some technology and sort out at least 249 issues themselves.

Again, the Mig-21 was first introduced in 1959 while the J-7 was first introduced in 1966.

 

[Kloitra]

But the Mig-21 is a Soviet Union combat aircraft and the J-7 is a Chinese combat aircraft. Although there was a technology transfer, they are different aircrafts. As the Soviets did not transfer the technology fully, China had to invent some technology and sort out at least 249 issues themselves.

Again, the Mig-21 was first introduced in 1959 while the J-7 was first introduced in 1966.

It is disputable, and insufficient info but:

This re-engineering effort was largely successful, as the Chinese-built J-7 aircraft showed only minor differences in design and performance from the original Soviet MiG-21.

Chinese didn't design anything new, they just were able to copy Mig 21. That was a great achievement on there part though. As you yourself said, they had to sort out several issues themselves. That doesn't mean improvement. They were learning then, and were happy to get almost the same capabilities as the Russians.

 

[sancho]

Jags when bought were already reaching obsolescence, I doubt same is the case with MKI, And I am not disagreeing with you about the numbers that should be in IAF colors, I am just letting you know to be ready for a surprise, MKI numbers will exceed upto ~340.

70 more from HALs lines? When they will produce LCA, Rafale and FGFA anyway? Highly doubtful, but if so extreemly stupid!

 

[MilSpec]

????? Jaguar was introduced in 73', ordered by India in 78 and started receiving by 79'. How is that obsolescence?

Jaguars were introduced in the late 60's, 68 or 70's i am guessing, and at that time, even the brits or the french were hesitant in to induct this aircraft in larger numbers. Even to IAF it was a second choice, the first being the SAAB viggen whose export was blocked by US at that time. mid 70's to mid 80's was a a very interesting time frame, TEEN series had two multirole and two air superiority fighters, Russians had their mig 29 under wraps, and India was not sure if it wanted to invest anymore in in the 27's 23's as it saw the generation progressing from 3rd to 4th. There were rumors of soviets might give the 29's but back then they were notorious is exporting diluted versions, India needed a reliable strike aircraft, and viggen was the prime option, Jaguar was the next best thing available at that time. In restrospect, I should take retract my comment, I should have said Jagaur was a mistimed product, And according to the doctrine of the day in the immediate theater, It worked.

 

[Kloitra]

Jaguars were introduced in the late 60's, 68 or 70's i am guessing, and at that time, even the brits or the french were hesitant in to induct this aircraft in larger numbers. Even to IAF it was a second choice, the first being the SAAB viggen whose export was blocked by US at that time. mid 70's to mid 80's was a a very interesting time frame, TEEN series had two multirole and two air superiority fighters, Russians had their mig 29 under wraps, and India was not sure if it wanted to invest anymore in in the 27's 23's as it saw the generation progressing from 3rd to 4th. There were rumors of soviets might give the 29's but back then they were notorious is exporting diluted versions, India needed a reliable strike aircraft, and viggen was the prime option, Jaguar was the next best thing available at that time. In restrospect, I should take retract my comment, I should have said Jagaur was a mistimed product, And according to the doctrine of the day in the immediate theater, It worked.

India didn't had any other option for 4th gen. It ordered Mig-29 soon after it was introduced, but that was mid to late 80s. Order of Jaguar went in 78, which was before Mig-29 was introduced. Neither were the multirole platforms so developed, nor was the development rate as fast as now. I doubt it would have been easy for any govt bar USA to foresee the end of 3rd gen so fast. And even then, India had to fill the gap for a strike aircraft ASAP.

I should take retract my comment, I should have said Jagaur was a mistimed product, And according to the doctrine of the day in the immediate theater, It worked.

I missed this. I agree, to an extent.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Jaguar is a capable low level strike aircarft even britain used until 2004.And we are using new darin3 upgraded jaguars.

 

[janon]

Jags when bought were already reaching obsolescence, I doubt same is the case with MKI, And I am not disagreeing with you about the numbers that should be in IAF colors, I am just letting you know to be ready for a surprise, MKI numbers will exceed upto ~340.

Purchased from Russia, or built at HAL? In the "super-30" config, or the current config? Good news, if true. These are extremely capable birds in all roles, and we are going to face a huge shortfall in numbers soon.

 

[anant_s]

Sure PAF flies Mirage 3's "introduced " in 1961, before vomiting on this thread, go look up when the mig21 Bisons that will remain in service were produced in India.

arey sirji, don't get involved, this is a nice thread let us continue with the future fleet composition.

@ SUPARCO even the mighty B-52 was introduced in 1954 (B-52A) and still it last variant B-52H continues to fly (possibly for another 15-20 years). So in essence the most powerful and advanced AF on the planet is using almost 60 yr old technology albeit its more modern versions. You can draw the same analogy with Mig 21 Bis as well.

 

[rockstarIN]

Jaguars were introduced in the late 60's, 68 or 70's i am guessing, and at that time, even the brits or the french were hesitant in to induct this aircraft in larger numbers. Even to IAF it was a second choice, the first being the SAAB viggen whose export was blocked by US at that time. mid 70's to mid 80's was a a very interesting time frame, TEEN series had two multirole and two air superiority fighters, Russians had their mig 29 under wraps, and India was not sure if it wanted to invest anymore in in the 27's 23's as it saw the generation progressing from 3rd to 4th. There were rumors of soviets might give the 29's but back then they were notorious is exporting diluted versions, India needed a reliable strike aircraft, and viggen was the prime option, Jaguar was the next best thing available at that time. In restrospect, I should take retract my comment, I should have said Jagaur was a mistimed product, And according to the doctrine of the day in the immediate theater, It worked.

What I heard that our first preference was Tornado, then Viggen and the third choice was Jags. The first two jets were blocked by Americans.

 

[sancho]

Jaguar is a capable low level strike aircarft even britain used until 2004.And we are using new darin3 upgraded jaguars.

It was a good strike fighter, but time and air warfare has changed and today it's next to useless, since any multi role fighter offers pretty much the same too. That's why it was silly to keep producing it till 2008, without looking at the future and why it would be as silly to keep producing MKI, only because we can. Even Russias early Pak Fas would be a better procurement, then MKIs beyond 2019s, because the minute a stealth fighter will be available in IAF, it changes everything wrt tactics, capabilities. And as soon as Pak Fa/FGFA will be available, MKIs roles will be dramatically reduced in IAF too, since they will take over the main air superiority roles, alongside Rafales, while LCA will take over the cost-effective low end roles like CAP and air policing.

Purchased from Russia, or built at HAL? In the "super-30" config, or the current config? Good news, if true. These are extremely capable birds in all roles, and we are going to face a huge shortfall in numbers soon.

The shortfall is just a paper issue, in reality IAF will easily able to manage since they are more effective now with multi role fighters than they were in the past with single role fighters. In future things will change even more, since less manned fighter squads will be needed, because drones will take over more and more of the missions.

 

[Sergi]

70 more from HALs lines? When they will produce LCA, Rafale and FGFA anyway? Highly doubtful, but if so extreemly stupid!

Chances are high that @sandy_3126 is right on MKI numbers.

BTW considering 30 ac per year from Nasik 70 isn't a huge number.