After Vote, Pakistan’s Strongest Ally Should Be India

[Kaniska]

There was other reason also as the post 9/11 scenario would not allow for total support for the fighters but pakistan did have leverage over the US and could have continued partial support but instead there was a total clampdown on the activities of the fighters.




I think as in the past, pakistan leaders have accepted assurances/promises from the indian govt that if they did X Y and Z (stop support for the khalistan movement)the indians would finalize an agreement on kashmir and i think this was the same illusion musharaff was under, but he should have learned from past history that no credit would be given by the indian but instead it would be portrayed as an all "indian victory against the terrorist" as the demise of the khalsistan fight was by the indian govt and as the present drop in violence in kashmir is.
Mushy did genuinely put a stop to all kashmir activites



The freedom fighters are a low cost force for pakistan of no more then a couple thousand men that can pin down half a million men "security force" in kashmir.
Pakistan has not been able to gain kashmir through the pak army on a few occasions and thus rather then keep repeating the same failed attempts they changed tactics and went for the freedom fighters options after getting the window of opportunity due to india rigging election and shooting demonstrators in the late 80s early 90s.




The "political awakening" in kashmir started in the early 80s with a push to use the democratic system to achieve independence from india but was crushed by the indians which then led to the kashmirs having to take up arms......what will be so different this time if kashmir goes down the political path?



I agree that the US will support pakistan on kashmir but for its own ulterior motives but i can see the the chinese coming in on the act in the near future.
So we could see in the near future two superpowers using the kashmir issue as tool to keep indian in check.



Pakistan can turn the tap off and on when if comes to sending fighters into kashmir.........if no credit is given to pakistan for the current climate in kashmir does that mean that pakistan should sent the fighters back to prove a point and then stop them and then the indians will give credit?

Honestly I should say that it is not like I am not giving any Credit to Pakistan.It will be a double speak for me if i would say that there credit is not there in Pakistan too...Of course Musharaf,after Post Kargil, was really a helpful person to India's request...And apart from that the most vital thing, the mindset and vgour of support of Pakistan intelligentia in 1990 is different in 2013 than what it was was in 1990...

But i can say that yes, Pakistan deserves credit for any improvement in Kashmir situation and so does some other factors too..

 

[dabong1]

For a referandum, there are a few criterias that Pakistan does not meet or will ever meet because the matters gone over the hilll, you cant gain back the terriitories that were handed over to china,

Repeating indian state propaganda might work with the indians but its does not work when it comes to the rest of the world.

‘India’s claims of Pakistan ceding territory in 1963 are false’
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

We sorted out our border issues with china thus laying the foundation of our friendship.......in actual fact pakistan eneded up with more land under the deal then the chinese.
“China maintained control over more of the disputed territory, but the agreement overall was more favourable to Pakistan. China kept roughly 5,309 square kilometres it contested in the Shaksgam Valley. However, it transferred control of some 1,942 square kilometres of territory in the Oprang Valley to Pakistan, which also maintained control over an additional 1,554 square kilometres of territory it already held. On balance, Pakistan seems to have gained more from the deal, as the final borderline followed closely the line of actual control advocated by Pakistan. China not only abandoned its claims to the Hunza, but Pakistan also received grazing areas in the Prang and Bund Darwaza valleys, the Kharachanai salt mine, and the town of Sokh Bulaq. In addition, Pakistan kept control over three-fourths of K2 as well as six of seven disputed mountain passes. Finally, Pakistan transferred no territory already under its control to China.” It was instead China which “transferred control of some 1,942 square kilometres” to Pakistan. When will the half-a-century-old lie the country has been fed on be laid to rest? In any settlement in the future

Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah's unwise venture during a trip abroad in 1965 when he met Prime Minister Zhou Enlai in Algiers and was afterwards arrested and detained at Kodaikanal, and later New Delhi, for nearly three years. Released on Id day, January 2, 1968, he gave a press conference two days later on the lawns of 3, Kotla Lane, New Delhi, where he was detained. It remained his home for quite some time. Over 150 correspondents grilled him. The transcript speaks for itself:

“Q.: Throw some light on your meeting with Mr. Zhou Enlai.

Sheikh Abdullah: I was in Algiers and Zhou Enlai suddenly came there one morning. I wanted to know from the horse's mouth about Kashmir, parts of whose area are controlled by India, another part by Pakistan and a portion thereof now is under China also. Naturally, I thought, let me see what has happened. So, I had a talk. Zhou Enlai said: ‘Pakistan being in de facto control of that area, we thought that we must straighten the border on that side. We talked with Pakistan and we have put a clause in the agreement that it is temporary; and ultimately when the question of Kashmir is resolved the matter will again be taken up at the time.' Then he talked about India. Next day I reported the whole thing to the Foreign Minister of India through the Indian Ambassador. First the Indian Ambassador avoided me but I did not avoid him. I gave him in writing and requested him to transmit it immediately to the Foreign Minister. It is only a question of trust. But I got indications that probably my friends in India did not trust me.” (He was arrested nonetheless.)

you cant separate the mixed population that has happened across the border,

I can see from your understanding of the kashmir issue or lack of it that you dont know that on the pakistani side of kashmir no body can become a citizen-vote who is not from kashmir........you could have been a punjabi family that has lived there for the last 40 years but you are not allowed to vote-buy land-get citizenship if your not from kashmir.

so a referandum is out of question..

Kashmiris love india so much you would a vote hands down......would you not?

What Pakistan can do is divert attention from Kashmir and concentrate on real issues -

Freedom and justice are real issues.

Pakistan is falling apart soo more care needs to be given there.

Yeah.....it was going to collapse after two weeks from independence and come running to the indians.......still standing

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Everyone know MAJ was with congress for sometime why is that such a big news.



Yes, I'm serious about Indian bureaucrats, I had very bad experience whenever I came in contact with them. Some will act very humble in front of their superiors but after they leave they'll show their true colors. All they do is connive and plot to extract as much money as possible and cause mental pain while doing it. Believe me.

This is something which is surprising me abt Mr. Joe's posts. As if the Indians dont know that.

Well this sounds like our bureaucracy.

They r like this too.


But u can go to court if they go out of hands n media.
We dont have such leverages here.


The problem is with upper bureaucracy in yr country which is very much influenced by the Americans n its believed that they create hurdles in peace process and negotiations with Pakistan about Kashmir, Siachin, Sir Creek etc etc to please the Americans as its in their interests to Make us fight n indult into our own regional problems then to concentrate on int. issues, Globalization and Prosperity.


Read the interesting post of Mr. Juice from America.

Its post#134

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...trongest-ally-should-india-9.html#post4270175

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Only an absolute "expert" can say that something isn't demarcated & that it still lies within Pakistan's territory.

Then why do u think that Pakistan is very reactionary towards this area??

 

[dabong1]

We make sure that the business and relationship is improved; you make sure that there are no terrorists. Fair deal.

So what happens when we find out thats its your own people doing the blasts and your blaming pakistan?

Do you really think that the terrorist activity is stopped because Pakistan listened to us?
My guess is, it stopped because Pakistan was busy on its western border.

So when they start sending the freedom fighters back into kashmir and you start demanding they stop sending freedom fighters and pakistan does.......is that when you will give some credit?
Why dont we see where are now and the conditions you wanted for fulfilled and then move on rather have to go all the way back again to get to this point?

To be able to carry out plebiscite in Kashmir, you have to hand over your occupied part of Kashmir to India. That's the UN resolution on this case. So when are you going to do that?

No problem......

A - RESTORATION OF PEACE AND ORDER

1. The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavours:

(a) To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and
Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes
of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of
material aid to those fighting in the State;

The tribesman left decades ago and pakistan national that came to fight have long gone.

(b) To make known to all concerned that the measures indicated in this and the following
paragraphs provide full freedom to all subjects of the State, regardless of creed, caste, or
party, to express their views and to vote on the question of the accession of the State, and
that therefore they should co-operate in the maintenance of peace and order.

. The Government of India should:

(a) When it is established to the satisfaction of the Commission set up in accordance with the
Council's Resolution 39 (1948) that the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for
the cessation of the fighting have become effective, put into operation in consultation with the
Commission a plan for withdrawing their own forces from Jammu and Kashmir and reducing
them progressively to the minimum strength required for the support of the civil power in the
maintenance of law and order;

(i) That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of
intimidation to the inhabitants of the State;
(ii) That as small a number as possible should be retained in forward areas;

See how it mentions "forward areas" and not "border" indicating that only the area under indian infulence is subject to indian "control of of the civil power in the
maintenance of law and order"
There is no mention of pakistani troops having to move out AJK only mentions pakistani nationals(volunteers) that have to help the kashmiris and the tribesman who have long gone.....its time for you to make your move.


Make the announcement to the worlds press that your willing to hold a referendum on kashmir and pakistan will take the step to make sure it happens.
If you think we will take your word for it and pull out before you make any commitment to the worlds press-UN-international observers then your mistaken.

 

[itachiii]

They cherish at the deaths of Pakistanis and defend a terrorist and call him a hero, bro and what not. So no. Pakistan can do absolutely fine without India.

AND U GUYS TRAIN PEOPLE LIKE KASAB , ARM THEM AND SEND THEM TO INDIA TO KILL INNOCENTS....

 

[Umair Nawaz]

You really don't get it, do you? Everyone including JS are having fun with your uneducated posts & you still haven't figured it out. Sucker for punishment.

Ok then punish me go to an int. court or ask yr army to attack us because of this

 

[Bang Galore]

Then why do u think that Pakistan is very reactionary towards this area??

That would be because Pakistan claims that area. Btw, Indian forces actually sit there on the Siachen glacier(no Pakistani soldier even sees it from their positions), does that make India even more "reactionary"....?

 

[Kaniska]

Sometimes, I am tired of reading about Kashmir. Dude @dabong1,I am not saying that what you are saying are incorrect.Every one has their own version and histroy is always distorted based on a need of their own society..This is nothing new..But my point and thought is that it may happen that ultimately, both nation will just have to make a final deal of LAC as an international border and close the issue...

Think about from your perspective with respect to Durand line issue between Afghanistan and Pakistan...Do you at any point of time,Pakistan will do a territorial compromise with Afganistan whatever the factual data it can be.....

 

[Umair Nawaz]

AND U GUYS TRAIN PEOPLE LIKE KASAB , ARM THEM AND SEND THEM TO INDIA TO KILL INNOCENTS....

and u train kashmir singh, surjeet singh, n bury as heros people like sarabjit singh,

and them to Pakistan to kill Innocents.

 

[Matrixx]

Strongest Ally ..is too much to ask for...
Best possible solution is if both ignore each other and stop inferring in each other's matter

 

[Umair Nawaz]

That would be because Pakistan claims that area. Btw, Indian forces actually sit there on the Siachen glacier(no Pakistani soldier even sees it from their positions), does that make India even more "reactionary"....?

Let me burst yr bubble Kiddo.

nice joke maybe u dont know where armies r in siachin.
70% glacier is occupied by Indian Army n 30% is with Pakistan. Hence yr claim of ''indian army sitting on entire glacier as if our soldiers even cant see from their positions is false n bogus claim.

Strongest Ally ..is too much to ask for...
Best possible solution is if both ignore each other and stop inferring in each other's matter

yeah fair enough.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Sometimes, I am tired of reading about Kashmir. Dude @dabong1,I am not saying that what you are saying are incorrect.Every one has their own version and histroy is always distorted based on a need of their own society..This is nothing new..But my point and thought is that it may happen that ultimately, both nation will just have to make a final deal of LAC as an international border and close the issue...

Think about from your perspective with respect to Durand line issue between Afghanistan and Pakistan...Do you at any point of time,Pakistan will do a territorial compromise with Afganistan whatever the factual data it can be.....

Durand line was set by brits n if afghanis think they own that so they need to ask brits who gave this to us.

Durand line is a very old issue n now atleast 100 years have passed n the generation living in Pak r now Pakistanis n they have huge differences with Afghans so its really cant be compared with kashmir socially n geographically.

 

[dabong1]

Sometimes, I am tired of reading about Kashmir. Dude @dabong1,I am not saying that what you are saying are incorrect.Every one has their own version and histroy is always distorted based on a need of their own society..This is nothing new..But my point and thought is that it may happen that ultimately, both nation will just have to make a final deal of LAC as an international border and close the issue...

You guys went to the UN and asked for the kashmiri refrendum and we accepted.......now that you know that the kashmiris dont want to be with indian you want to turn the LOC into a border.

Think about from your perspective with respect to Durand line issue between Afghanistan and Pakistan...Do you at any point of time,Pakistan will do a territorial compromise with Afganistan whatever the factual data it can be.....

There is no UN resolution on the issue and neither did pakistan go to the UN and say it would accept the durrand line as a disputed area.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Seriously u dont know that MAJ was a congressman?



R u serious???????

Please explain.



Take out the pre 84 map dude.....

Its well with in the boundaries of Pak.

Seriously, you need to get up to date with who is where on these matters. Ask some of your seniors on the forum. On the plus side, at least you knew this: that's the saving grace. Most of your generation wouldn't - and wouldn't understand the implications, if they did.