After Himalayan avalanche, many in Pakistan call for patching ties with Ind

[SR 71 Blackbird]

^^^^^^^^

No Sale Buster.

Charity begins at home......where was the so called angle of mercy Dhruv when 20 odd Indian soldiers were swept away by an avalanche in Kashmir just a month earlier. !!

WE were able to recover most of the bodies soon unlike in the current accident in Siachen.
Avalanche toll 18 Lastupdate:- Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com

 

[janon]

^^^^^^^^

No Sale Buster.

Charity begins at home......where was the so called angle of mercy Dhruv when 20 odd Indian soldiers were swept away by an avalanche in Kashmir just a month earlier. !!

Some of them were washed into pakistani territory. What do you expect the dhruv to do under such circumstances, violate your sovereignity from this side as well? Maybe you have so gotten used to foreign helis coming to your country that you think it is normal.

The bodies on the Indian side were recovered by the IAF. I don't know if it was dhruvs that did it, but we didn't need anybody else's help for that.

 

[janon]

On the topic of the thread, I am reminded of kayani's boast when he was head of the ISI, that pak would "bleed india through a thousand cuts". In the real world it seems that it is India that is bleeding pakistan everyday, by forcing them to spend more than they can afford to keep up with india. I am not talking about this unfortunate incident (RIP to the soldiers), which could have happened to anybody. But the very fact that they have to spend so much to maintain troops in siachen when their economy is struggling, says a lot about who is bleeding who. It has come to a stage when pakistani militarymen have to accept that they are not going to get an inch of indian territory, by hook or crook. Yes, they can train as many terrorists as they want, and once in a while these terrorists may even carry out a succesful attack against indians. But all the other time they will be a nuisance for pakistanis themselves, and indian kashmir continues to be indian. Nothing is going to change that.

Or am I wrong? Does the pakistani establishment still think that they will get kashmir some day? I'm asking about the military/intelligence professionals who run the country, not about some of the delusional posters here, who I know still believe it.

 

[Windjammer]

Some of them were washed into pakistani territory. What do you expect the dhruv to do under such circumstances, violate your sovereignity from this side as well? Maybe you have so gotten used to foreign helis coming to your country that you think it is normal.

The bodies on the Indian side were recovered by the IAF. I don't know if it was dhruvs that did it, but we didn't need anybody else's help for that.

The news item doesn't say anything about any Indian soldiers ending up on the Pakistani side, none the less it still took Indian authorities several days to retrieve the bodies from a few feet of snow, now compare that with a wall of snow measuring over 100 feet deep.

As for the cheap banter, an Indian Cheetah helo sits prominently in Gilgit while another after forced down was allowed to return just a few months earlier. !!! Back to topic.

 

[Gessler]

On the topic of the thread, I am reminded of kayani's boast when he was head of the ISI, that pak would "bleed india through a thousand cuts". In the real world it seems that it is India that is bleeding pakistan everyday, by forcing them to spend more than they can afford to keep up with india. I am not talking about this unfortunate incident (RIP to the soldiers), which could have happened to anybody. But the very fact that they have to spend so much to maintain troops in siachen when their economy is struggling, says a lot about who is bleeding who. It has come to a stage when pakistani militarymen have to accept that they are not going to get an inch of indian territory, by hook or crook. Yes, they can train as many terrorists as they want, and once in a while these terrorists may even carry out a succesful attack against indians. But all the other time they will be a nuisance for pakistanis themselves, and indian kashmir continues to be indian. Nothing is going to change that.

Or am I wrong? Does the pakistani establishment still think that they will get kashmir some day? I'm asking about the military/intelligence professionals who run the country, not about some of the delusional posters here, who I know still believe it.

And the advent of the versatile LCH Black Tiger attack helicopter will ensure our superiority and complete
sovereighty of Kashmir. It can out-climb even the Apache to greater altitudes, its digital camo schemes
reduce its signature on imaging seekers and its stealthy streamlined high-composite body deflects radar
waves very well, it might even prove MANPADS useless against it.

Getting kashmir will forever remain a dream for pakistani military, I can assure it. The LCH can assure it too.

 

[janon]

Getting kashmir will forever remain a dream for pakistani military, I can assure it.

Well I know that. What I would like to know is whether they still have that dream, or whether they have realised that it is impossible for them. Just want to know their thinking.

 

[chitti]

and too the blame was put on pakistan for samjhita express

i dont believe that LET did the mumbai drama, ajmal kasab is not even pakistani, indians are even trying to link this to ISI

in that case, i dont think even one soldier died. i find it hard to believe that even 1 body is not found. its not that they are washed away to sea.

 

[Windjammer]

Then there should also be a collection of american helos, since they come in uninvited to your country everyday and drop missiles on your citizens? Back to topic.

(It is easy to take cheapshots and then say back to topic.)

Indeed it's easy to take cheap shots......using others as example. I guess that's what makes an internet warrior.!!

As for the thousand cuts thingy, there are no winners and runners up in this hostile environment. But then some one like you would argue that you can afford to get more soldiers killed.

On an average, defence experts say, one Pakistani soldier is killed every third day on the Siachen Glacier, showing approximately 100 casualties every year on an average. Similarly, one Indian soldier is killed every other day on the Siachen Glacier, at an annual average of 180 casualties. According to unofficial figures, over 3,000 Pakistani soldiers have lost their lives on the bloody Siachen Glacier between April 1984 and April 2012 as against over 5,000 Indian casualties. At present, there are approximately 7,000 Indian Army troops and about 4,000 Pakistani troops stationed at the Siachen Glacier.

Over 8,000 Indo-Pak soldiers killed in Siachen - thenews.com.pk

 

[Gessler]

Well I know that. What I would like to know is whether they still have that dream

Depends on what they're smoking I don't wish to be rude but i do think that what they smoke
directly has an effect on what they dream.

 

[OrionHunter]

Pakistan and India had in 2006 come close to reaching an agreement on their core disputes over Kashmir, said Khurshid Kasuri, Pakistan's foreign minister at the time. The process was scuttled, however, by the Pakistani militant organization Lashkar-i-Taiba, which later launched a four-day killing spree in Mumbai, India's largest city, that cost 166 lives.

Well, that's the problem. The JuD/LeT calls the shots as there is a lame duck government that rules over Pakistan. Until and unless Hafiz Saeed and his jihad factory are brought to heel, lives will continue to be lost in Siachen.

All this talk by Gilani and Zardari wanting an amicable solution to the Kashmir dispute acceptable to all parties is a lot of hot air, because the militant organizations rule the roost in Pakistan. Kashmir for them is a zero sum game. They want India to hand it over on a platter to Pakistan, nothing less. There's lies the nub.

 

[janon]

Indeed it's easy to take cheap shots......using others as example. I guess that's what makes an internet warrior.!!

As for the thousand cuts thingy, there are no winners and runners up in this hostile environment. But then some one like you would argue that you can afford to get more soldiers killed.


Over 8,000 Indo-Pak soldiers killed in Siachen - thenews.com.pk

Someone like me would argue that India can MONETARILY afford a military presence much more than pakistan can. And that in absolute terms of money involved, India can afford a lot more than pak can. (For heavens sake don't start about toilets now, because pak has that problem as well, whether you know it or not.)

I was not speaking in terms of number of lives lost, because the value of lives is not something we quantify. So you putting up statistics about the number of soldiers killed is meaningless to me. I'm assuming that you want to point out that India loses more soldiers. That is not true for the past 8 years, and even if it is, it doesnt matter, because as I said, human lives are not something we compare in terms of numbers. My argument of affordability was purely on financial terms. How much it costs the nation to maintain a presence there, how much it hurts india to spend so much, and how much it hurts pak to spend so much. You missed that point and thought it was about the number of lives lost.

 

[Gessler]

Indeed it's easy to take cheap shots......using others as example. I guess that's what makes an internet warrior.!!

As for the thousand cuts thingy, there are no winners and runners up in this hostile environment. But then some one like you would argue that you can afford to get more soldiers killed.


Over 8,000 Indo-Pak soldiers killed in Siachen - thenews.com.pk

I dont want to start a flame war, but i think you're sources could be biased.

Just a few days back >150 pakistani troops were killed on one day, and that were seriously alter
the average no. of "troops killed per s/o day", I think the guys in the site should either
recalculate or seek Indian help to count the exact revised figures after the incident instead of writing whatever they can to
"cover up" the intensity of the tragedy by trying to make it seem that the no. of Indian troops
killed is higher than pak's.

Such tricks are carried out by biased/inclined journalists who, upon the orders of the govt. might
do a gimmick calculation.

 

[PoKeMon]

i dont believe that LET did the mumbai drama, ajmal kasab is not even pakistani, indians are even trying to link this to ISI

I think you were the one who opened a thread stating "PDF is no more logical"

 

[Abingdonboy]

Indeed it's easy to take cheap shots......using others as example. I guess that's what makes an internet warrior.!!

As for the thousand cuts thingy, there are no winners and runners up in this hostile environment. But then some one like you would argue that you can afford to get more soldiers killed.


Over 8,000 Indo-Pak soldiers killed in Siachen - thenews.com.pk

Going by the figures you yourself have provided you have proven the IA are more successful in operating in Saichin- a force of 7,000 in IA compared to 4,000 PA which effectively means a 2:1 advantage of IA yet the PROPOTRION of deaths to personal (yes anyone can pull out figures that make a larger force look worse) is actually less than Pakistan. This is not by accident- the IA has learnt some hard facts over the years in operating in such conditions and as such has created amazing infrastructure and training to make the IA, arguably, the finest mountain warfare force on the planet. It is therefore unfair to draw comparisons with Pakistan as, on average, the IA spends 4-5 times more on supporting each soldier than the PA does- this comes down to economic reasons, the PA may not value the lifer each soldier any less than than the IA but they simply can't afford to impart the say level of training and send as much on each induvidual. This is pure economics.

 

[illusion8]

Someone like me would argue that India can MONETARILY afford a military presence much more than pakistan can. And that in absolute terms of money involved, India can afford a lot more than pak can. (For heavens sake don't start about toilets now, because pak has that problem as well, whether you know it or not.)

I was not speaking in terms of number of lives lost, because the value of lives is not something we quantify. So you putting up statistics about the number of soldiers killed is meaningless to me. I'm assuming that you want to point out that India loses more soldiers. That is not true for the past 8 years, and even if it is, it doesnt matter, because as I said, human lives are not something we compare in terms of numbers. My argument of affordability was purely on financial terms. How much it costs the nation to maintain a presence there, how much it hurts india to spend so much, and how much it hurts pak to spend so much. You missed that point and thought it was about the number of lives lost.

India should maintain her vigil on the Siachin glacier without giving any consideration if the opposite party is finding it hard to maintain a post or not. Its in our interests and anybody else's needs should not be factored in harming our own security, Just like Kargil, Pakistan will attempt to occupy Siachin if our troops are not present there.