Afghanistan says Pak using terrorists as violent proxies -thehindu

[pakistani342]

Wow I never thought you are this ill informed about Afghanistan my friend 40 years of war and misery, so many other ills that plague this country and our neighbors who have preyed on us for decades, but the only thing I dare is the Afghan identity, show me one country that has left standing after only few years of war,

Actually my dear @A-Team , your assertions, though I'm sure very well meaning have no basis in history. Some examples:
1. For example Japan went through 400 years of brutal civil war. One can argue that the state today has survived those 400 years of civil war.
2. The Somali civil war has been going on sine the 1980s (about as long as the Afghan civil war), yet Somaila as a nation is more or less intact, thought they may currently have more than one administrative unit. Further they never received an injection of 100 billion dollars and the infusion of Western NGOs and technocrats. Ask yourself had 9/11 not happened where would Afghanistan be today. Despite all of this, Afghanistan does not have a single decent engineering college -- compare that to Somalia [which hasn't had a fraction of the help Afghanistan has had]
3. Sireualeon has suffered from over a decade of civil war and "Without outside help the scale of what Afghanistan has seen , but is thriving today with an organic economy
4. The Sri Lankan civil war lasted roughly 26 years but look at where Sri Lanka is (without the infusion of more than 100billion USD) and where Afghanistan is. Afghanistan has a literacy rate of 38.2% (which education experts consider highly optimistic -- given ghost schools, students and the fact that it's not schools but teachers that increase literacy -- where did all these teachers come from post the civil war), Sri Lanka 92.5

Afghans with all its problems are still proud of being Afghans and this country has stood for centuries.

Sadly this is untrue, the Afghan state has stood since 1919 (and has collapsed several times in between). The people that constitute Afghanistan have been living here for millennia, much like Pakistan's Pakhtuns, Punjabis, etc. -- so again you are conflating your yardsticks and applying different standards to Afghanistan and Pakistan.

This may sound harsh but you have lost half of your country because they didn't believe in the Pakistan project, you can blame the Indians but you need to accept the fact the there are people who do not subscribe to your notion of Pakistan, probably the only ones who do strongly are the Punjabies because they are in the driving seat as for as the governance and power is concerned.

Yes this is true, Pakistan lost 1/2 it's population in a civil war that was actively helped by India and separated by a hostile India -- had say East Pakistan instead been wedged between Iran and Baluchistan, the outcome would have been drastically been different -- however the Pakistanis are the original sinners in this case. To say that the Pakistani project did not have support is simply untrue, it is actually East Pakistan where the Pakistani project began. Pakistan could simply not support the people in West Pakistan who believed in the Pakistani project, because of a hostile India.

So in summary, Pakistan lost 1/2 its population that was separated by hundreds of miles over hostile territory, but Afghanistan lost its access to the sea and 1/2 its Pashtun population without resistance and by the signing of a treaty which in turn promised 10s of thousands of rupees annually for Amir Abdur Rahman Khan household.

On your comment, about Punjabis dominating, how many Punjabis have been heads of the governments vis-a-vis their population ratio: Let's see, and I've listed Prime Ministers, Generals (or Garnails) and CEOs:
1. Quaid-e-Azam -- not Punjabi
2. Liaqat Ali Khan -- not Punjabi
3. Khawaja Nazimuddin -- not Punjabi
4. Muhammad Ali Bogra -- not Punjabi
5. Chaudhry Muhammad Ali -- Punjabi (technically Muhajir)
6. Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy -- Not Punjabi
7. Ibrahim Ismail Chundrigar -- Not Punjabi
8. Feroz Khan Noon -- Punjabi
9. Nurul Amin -- Not Punjabi
10. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto -- Not Punjabi
11. Muhammad Khan Junejo -- Not Punjabi
12. Benazir Bhutto -- Not Punjabi
13. Ghulam Mustafa Jatoi -- Not Punjabi
14. Nawaz Sharif -- Punjabi
15. Balakh Sher Mazari -- Not Punjabi
16. Nawaz Sharif -- Punjabi
17. Moeenuddin Ahmad Qureshi -- Punjabi
18. Malik Meraj Khalid -- Punjabi
19. Zafarullah Khan Jamali -- Not Punjabi
20. Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain -- Punjabi
21. Shaukat Aziz -- Not Punjabi
22. Muhammad Mian Soomro -- Not Punjabi
23. Yousaf Raza Gillani -- Punjabi
24. Raja Pervaiz Ashraf -- Punjabi
25. Mir Hazar Khan Khoso Not -- Punjabi
26. Field Marshal Ayub Khan — Not Punjabi
27. General Yahya Khan — Not Punjabi
28. General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq — Punjabi (technically Muhajir)
29. General Pervez Musharraf — Not Punjabi

I think that is about right -- now if you consider length of rule:

Ayub Khan = ~10 years
Z. Bhutto = ~7 years
B. Bhutto = ~5 years
Musharraf = ~10 years
A. Zardari = ~5 years (he had the power as opposed to Jilani or R Ashraf)

That is 37 years right there -- amongst the most influential head of governments. Add the others and you'll see Punjabis have been head of government less than 50% of the time while the are the largest ethnic block (after 1971). And, before 1971 you can also see that Punjabis did not dominate.

Also NOTE these were head of governments and not simply ceremonial heads of states.

Not only that you can ask how many of these were Shia -- Shia is the sizable minority in Pakistan

You can do the same analysis with the Chiefs of the Army, Air Force and Navy.

Further I would encourage your to see how many "seats" there are in government medical colleges in KPK vs Punjab and then normalize that by the population ratio.

I would ask you how many non Pashtun head of governments have there been in Afghanistan since 1919?

And despite this I think there is a realization (however imperfect it may be) to reduce the Punjabi participation in political life and encourage minorities -- who knows what may become of this.

I say the biggest ill Afghanistan faces is being part of this hostile neighborhood with extremely obtuse competing interests and then followed by lack of education, education is the key to solving all our ills.

Actually this is a convenient ruse -- Pakistanis do the same thing. Afghans are their own worst enemy as are Pakistanis their own worst enemy.

the Saur Revolution -- existentially threatening Pakistan several times, etc. etc. -- what did Afghans expect? milk and honey.

I didn't mean to be harsh here but just merely taking a strong exception to your lack understanding of the Afghan issues.
I don't want to even start with your concept of the ANSF, lets leave that to some other day

/Peace

I would urge you to consider this -- it is often said that the Afghan identity is strong by Afghans, however I think perhaps you misunderstand what the National identity is. Here are some notes to consider:

1. For the Afghan identity to be strong, in the modern context, the Afghans have to understand their compact and thus social contract with the Afghan state. Do Afghans have a notion of collective ownership of their state like say the British do? Simply no.
2. Do the Afghans even understand the notion of a social contract? Simply no
3. Given a tribal identity and Afghan, is the Afghan identity stronger? no.
4. Similarly the claim the the Pakistani identity is weak draws many protests from Pakistanis, but in a moderns sense it is true.

Further what is disappointing to me is that you are a privileged Afghan, one who has Western higher education. I think for the patient to heal the prognosis must be accurate no matter how severe it is. No?

I saw in another post you claim that the Afghan literacy rate is now 65%. Have you ever stopped to consider what type of logistics this would require? Is it even possible in the span of 14 years?

My brother, I am not religious at all but I think there is a popular Hadith: that a good friend is like a mirror -- what that means is he shows you like your are.

My only hope (and I don't like that word) is that Afghans, especially educated ones, use empirical based methods and not emotion based methods.

@That Guy @Hiptullha @Samandri @Sher Malang

 

[DRDO KALI 10000]

I still believe in Ghani, and that he'll do the right thing. Words and actions are two different things, when coming out of Afghanistan. Words suggest that Pakistan and Afghanistan are enemies, but actions show that Afghanistan continues to try and take the olive branch that Pakistan has offered, despite Afghanistan's internal enemies.

India was never a real or serious player in Afghanistan, no matter how much money it threw at them. India has already lost, and all it can do is damage control.

I like this line a lot "India has already lost" every Pakistani has this line on his mouth ALWAYS.

 

[That Guy]

I like this line a lot "India has already lost" every Pakistani has this line on his mouth ALWAYS.

You attempts at insulting me as both childish and worthless. My point stands.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Why? Pakistan hasn't had its fill of persecuting Afghans who came to Pakistan as refugees, so now you want to make them part of your country so you can abuse them 24/7? Check out the threads on PDF on Afghan refugees and the disgusting language used by Pakistani members to describe Afghans.

Also, you think the Afghans don't see the reality of Pakistan? Except for Punjab, all other Provinces have secession movements going on because of discrimination, exploitation and repression by Islamabad. You want the Afghans to join the queue?

All states have secessionist movements in the US, as well. Separatists in KPK, Sindh and Balochistan only got 0.1% of the votes COMBINED. If you talk shit about Pakistan openly, wether it is in Karachi, Quetta or Peshawer; you will get attacked by the local population - and guess who will come to save their asses?

 

[DRDO KALI 10000]

You attempts at insulting me as both childish and worthless. My point stands.

I just raise a point showing your people's tendency always, preset mindset, "India has already lost" .
If you take it as Insulting to you, Its only your decision how you want to take it.

You could have take it in +ve manner also and tried to change your preset mindset.

 

[That Guy]

I just raise a point showing your people's tendency always, preset mindset, "India has already lost" .
If you take it as Insulting to you, Its only your decision how you want to take it.

You could have take it in +ve manner also and tried to change your preset mindset.

The very fact that you use the terms "your people" assuming I identify as a Pakistani first, and "preset mindset" shows just how hypocritical and naive you are.

 

[DRDO KALI 10000]

The very fact that you use the terms "your people" assuming I identify as a Pakistani first, and "preset mindset" shows just how hypocritical and naive you are.

Plz can you clearly explain me where I was wrong. By the term "You People" I was referring to mostly all those Pakistani who has this tendency which I am noted very very often on Indian threads.

I dont think I need to give you an example, you are Very senior Member and Mod as well so , you already deal with this a lot.

 

[That Guy]

Plz can you clearly explain me where I was wrong. By the term "You People" I was referring to mostly all those Pakistani who has this tendency which I am noted very very often on Indian threads.

I dont think I need to give you an example, you are Very senior Member and Mod as well so , you already deal with this a lot.

Mod? No, but it is because I've dealt with so many people on here that I can definitively say that you're completely wrong.
Your comment is based on an assumption, and doesn't even address my point at all. Rather than saying I'm wrong, you use fallacies to attack me.