Afghanistan says Pak using terrorists as violent proxies -thehindu

[Indika]

India was never a real or serious player in Afghanistan, no matter how much money it threw at them. India has already lost, and all it can do is damage control.

To start with india never had a terrorist agenda or policy of imposing itself on afghanistan. Who ever comes to power in afghanistan will know who their enemies are. Even pakistans own taliban refused to agree upon durand line between afghanistan & pakistan.

 

[xyxmt]

Afghanistan's daily quotable quotes from the wisdom book of the land of warlords and terror, come on Afghanistan arent you the same land who terrorized the entire sub-continent for centuries and now all you can do is issues daily quotes.

 

[illusion8]

To start with india never had a terrorist agenda or policy of imposing itself on afghanistan. Who ever comes to power in afghanistan will know who their enemies are. Even pakistans own taliban refused to agree upon durand line between afghanistan & pakistan.

Pakistan dispatched the taliban leaders to request Ghani to meet with Nawaz..I find it strange when Pakistani members talk of their influence in Afghanistan when one needs to send it's proxies to request an audience.

 

[Indika]

Pakistan dispatched the taliban leaders to request Ghani to meet with Nawaz..I find it strange when Pakistani members talk of their influence in Afghanistan when one needs to send it's proxies to request an audience.

yeah, pakistan thinks pretty high of itself whether it is ummah or afghanistan.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

the Pakistanis should be glad that Maleeha Lodhi is holding down the Pakistani fort.

You call her reply ''holding down'' the Pakistani fort:

Pakistan's Permanent Representative Maleeha Lodhi said it was "important for the anti-Pakistan rhetoric from Kabul to cease".

This is WHY you need a man do deal with insolence. Pathetic woman!

 

[nForce]

Is that what Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi learnt in Sri Lanka?

View attachment 277524

Apparently he did not.

 

[That Guy]

To start with india never had a terrorist agenda or policy of imposing itself on afghanistan. Who ever comes to power in afghanistan will know who their enemies are. Even pakistans own taliban refused to agree upon durand line between afghanistan & pakistan.

Sure, whatever you say.

I don't get this narrative?..how exactly has India lost?, or how exactly has the US lost in Afghanistan?.

India's goal has always been to contain Pakistan, and isolate it, and it has fail spectacularly. I'm not even talking about the US, but I actually find it a shame that the US failed in it's attempt to stabilize Afghanistan.

What was India's stated objective in Afghanistan that failed to call it a "lost" cause?.

I'm pretty sure that you and I have had this very conversation before, multiple times.

From my POV..India had a development agenda in Afghanistan, it also wanted to see to it that the taliban do not take over Afghanistan again.

Development was just an excuse to get involved in Afghanistan's internal politics, and to counter Pakistani influence. The taliban don't actually concern Indian policy makers, they're really concerned about Pakistan having friendly relations with Kabul. Again, I'm pretty sure we've talked about this before.

 

[illusion8]

India's goal has always been to contain Pakistan, and isolate it, and it has fail spectacularly. I'm not even talking about the US, but I actually find it a shame that the US failed in it's attempt to stabilize Afghanistan.


I'm pretty sure that you and I have had this very conversation before, multiple times.


Development was just an excuse to get involved in Afghanistan's internal politics, and to counter Pakistani influence. The taliban don't actually concern Indian policy makers, they're really concerned about Pakistan having friendly relations with Kabul. Again, I'm pretty sure we've talked about this before.

Nuisance value doesn't warrant containment on grand scale..

You being a think tank..what do you think ails Afghanistan? Radicalism, poverty, drugs, illiteracy, ignorance, health care, connectivity, economics?

ISAF were fighting a war and building up an afghan army...... while India acted as an agent for change...brought roads, electricity, dams, schools, hospitals, television, radio, cell connectivity, Internet, culture, industry, software..A promise of trade and mineral dealings. All this to pull common afghanis away from terrorism and radicalism.

These changes and building essentials are more needed than what Pakistan brings to the table - haqqani, taliban, sectarianism, proxies and conflict.

 

[That Guy]

Nuisance value doesn't warrant containment on grand scale..

You being a think tank..what do you think ails Afghanistan? Radicalism, poverty, drugs, illiteracy, ignorance, health care, connectivity, economics?

ISAF were fighting a war and building up an afghan army...... while India acted as an agent for change...brought roads, electricity, dams, schools, hospitals, television, radio, cell connectivity, Internet, culture, industry, software..A promise of trade and mineral dealings. All this to pull common afghanis away from terrorism and radicalism.

These changes and building essentials are more needed than what Pakistan brings to the table - haqqani, taliban, sectarianism, proxies and conflict.

Pakistan has also invested in developing Afghanistan. Now, granted, it isn't at the scale of India's investment, but Afghans are easy to forget that Pakistan has also built schools, roads, and even government buildings in Afghanistan. Not to mention that Pakistan has practically made it free for Afghanistan to import and export products from Pakistan.

As for India's role, it's investments were nothing more than to keep Pakistan's influence out, and isolate it. India's goal wasn't to help Afghans at all, that was merely a byproduct. This is no benevolent cause, when it comes to geopolitics, it's all self-serving, India is no exception.

Afghanistan's issues stem from the fact that it is inherently not a united country. A huge chunk (and dare I say it, a majority) don't believe in the Afghan nationality; outside of those that aren't loyal to their tribes and clans, the rural population just wants to be left alone, they don't care about the government or the taliban, because neither side has done anything positive for them, in fact, may of these people have no link to large population centers. The taliban may show a united front, and claim that they have members from all over Afghanistan's tribal region, but the truth is that they're mainly southern Pashtun. With the Afghan government, they're mainly northerners from the Tajik, Hazara and Uzbek tribes (that constantly fight each other), and despite claiming to represent all of Afghanistan, ANA forces are often looked as foreigners (because they mainly recruit from the North), whenever they're deployed to the South (which is the very reason why the US started the ALP program). These deep divisions will continue, as long as both sides remain more loyal to their own tribes, rather than their own nations.

This problem is an historical one, and stems for constant rebellions. Few governments, in the history of Afghanistan, haven't faced rebellions and insurgencies, and the ones that have, usually it was due to tribalism and not a sense of Afghan nationalism. All in all, Afghanistan cannot move forward, as long as there is disunity among the people. The only times they've ever been united is when they've all had to face a common enemy in the form of foreigners, which may explain why people like Karzai are trying to demonize Pakistan, in order to gain power.

 

[A-Team]

Afghanistan's issues stem from the fact that it is inherently not a united country. A huge chunk (and dare I say it, a majority) don't believe in the Afghan nationality;r.

Wow I never thought you are this ill informed about Afghanistan my friend 40 years of war and misery, so many other ills that plague this country and our neighbors who have preyed on us for decades, but the only thing I dare is the Afghan identity, show me one country that has left standing after only few years of war, Afghans with all its problems are still proud of being Afghans and this country has stood for centuries. This may sound harsh but you have lost half of your country because they didn't believe in the Pakistan project, you can blame the Indians but you need to accept the fact the there are people who do not subscribe to your notion of Pakistan, probably the only ones who do strongly are the Punjabies because they are in the driving seat as for as the governance and power is concerned.

I say the biggest ill Afghanistan faces is being part of this hostile neighborhood with extremely obtuse competing interests and then followed by lack of education, education is the key to solving all our ills.

I didn't mean to be harsh here but just merely taking a strong exception to your lack understanding of the Afghan issues.
I don't want to even start with your concept of the ANSF, lets leave that to some other day

/Peace

 

[Rasengan]

Wow I never thought you are this ill informed about Afghanistan my friend 40 years of war and misery, so many other ills that plague this country and our neighbors who have preyed on us for decades, but the only thing I dare is the Afghan identity, show me one country that has left standing after only few years of war, Afghans with all its problems are still proud of being Afghans and this country has stood for centuries.

Brother A-Team if the Afghan diaspora is proud of their identity and country then when will they migrate back from Pakistan Instead of blaming others for the many ills that have plagued your society, please do some soul searching and accept the fact that you must look within. For 40 years we have sheltered, fed, clothed and provided jobs to your people who came to our country as guest when things in Afghanistan was hopeless. if Afghans are still proud today then why are they migrating towards Europe.

This may sound harsh but you have lost half of your country because they didn't believe in the Pakistan project, you can blame the Indians but you need to accept the fact the there are people who do not subscribe to your notion of Pakistan, probably the only ones who do strongly are the Punjabies because they are in the driving seat as for as the governance and power is concerned.
/Peace

Now Brother A-Team please research more before making ludicrous statements, otherwise another city like Kunduz will fall Even today their are millions of Bangladeshi's who still believe in the idea of Pakistan and thought the partitioning of their country was wrong. It has been estimated that 1 million biharis were murdered by the Mukthi Bahini for their support for Pakistan, therefore research more One of the largest ethnic groups in the Pakistan Armed Forces is the Pashtuns and the amount of political power they wield in the country is astonishing. It was the Pashtuns themselves who helped Pakistan fight against India in 1947 and they crushed the rebellion in 1948. The transportation, mining and sports sector have been dominated by the Pashtuns and if it escapes your notice the second biggest party in Pakistan is headed by Imran Khan Lets look at your country which has:

1) Desertion rate of 4000 solders a month
2) The biggest opium producer in the world
3) Millions of refugees in Pakistan in which you cannot afford to repatriate them to your own country
4) Millions have died in the last 40 years, because your country is dysfunctional and you have ethnicity problems
5) Allowed India to use your territory to launch terror operations in Pakistan
6) Corruption is so bad in your country that unemployment is rising fast forcing people to migrate
7) Taliban are about to take over and its only a matter of time, but the world has moved on and does not care about your whinging.
8) Most of your politicians in Kabul don't except the Durand Line.
9) Forcing us to open our borders to Indian goods which can go to Afghanistan.

At least Pakistan has improved drastically in the last year, while your country can continuously suffer for its arrogance.

 

[PoKeMon]

India was never a real or serious player in Afghanistan, no matter how much money it threw at them. India has already lost, and all it can do is damage control.

Thats the sad part, Pakistan and pakistanis believe Afghanistan to be some play ground more to say their own home ground.

 

[A-Team]

Brother A-Team if the Afghan diaspora is proud of their identity and country then when will they migrate back from Pakistan Instead of blaming others for the many ills that have plagued your society, please do some soul searching and accept the fact that you must look within. For 40 years we have sheltered, fed, clothed and provided jobs to your people who came to our country as guest when things in Afghanistan was hopeless. if Afghans are still proud today then why are they migrating towards Europe.




Now Brother A-Team please research more before making ludicrous statements, otherwise another city like Kunduz will fall Even today their are millions of Bangladeshi's who still believe in the idea of Pakistan and thought the partitioning of their country was wrong. It has been estimated that 1 million biharis were murdered by the Mukthi Bahini for their support for Pakistan, therefore research more One of the largest ethnic groups in the Pakistan Armed Forces is the Pashtuns and the amount of political power they wield in the country is astonishing. It was the Pashtuns themselves who helped Pakistan fight against India in 1947 and they crushed the rebellion in 1948. The transportation, mining and sports sector have been dominated by the Pashtuns and if it escapes your notice the second biggest party in Pakistan is headed by Imran Khan Lets look at your country which has:

1) Desertion rate of 4000 solders a month
2) The biggest opium producer in the world
3) Millions of refugees in Pakistan in which you cannot afford to repatriate them to your own country
4) Millions have died in the last 40 years, because your country is dysfunctional and you have ethnicity problems
5) Allowed India to use your territory to launch terror operations in Pakistan
6) Corruption is so bad in your country that unemployment is rising fast forcing people to migrate
7) Taliban are about to take over and its only a matter of time, but the world has moved on and does not care about your whinging.
8) Most of your politicians in Kabul don't except the Durand Line.
9) Forcing us to open our borders to Indian goods which can go to Afghanistan.

At least Pakistan has improved drastically in the last year, while your country can continuously suffer for its arrogance.

My good friend @Rasengan great to hear from you

You have raised some many obtuse points but I will reply to a couple owing to a busy schedule.

As always lets agree to disagree on the subject at hand, I think migration is a very normal trend, happend to the Irish, the German, the Finnish when there was ill in their homeland but their 2nd generation did return back and proud of their heritage. I believe the same for Afghans millions have returned back and more will follow when sucide bombers and muderors are not trained and sent from our neighbourhood. But the fundamental point here is identifying with Afghanistan, if you ask 2nd or 3rd generation Afghans if they identify with Afghanistan, you will get the same answer yes we do, although Afghanistan maybe a mess.

Can you ask the same for most countries in our neighbourhood if they had anarchy for 4 decades if they will identify with their homeland, I doubt most will. Iraq is a good example.

Yes I am sure there are millions of Bangladishi folks who would love to go back to Pakistan, but a month or so ago when some religious party leaders who sided with Pakistan were hanged for crimes against the nation, I didn't see those millions that you pointed to, come out and protest ? Where were those millions when these leaders were hanged who were at the forefront of defending the Pakistani state in the time war ?

More later

/Peace

 

[Rasengan]

My good friend @Rasengan great to hear from you

I sincerely hope everything is going smoothly for you my friend, because political differences aside I think you are a decent human being.

As always lets agree to disagree on the subject at hand, I think migration is a very normal trend, happend to the Irish, the German, the Finnish when there was ill in their homeland but their 2nd generation did return back and proud of their heritage. I believe the same for Afghans millions have returned back and more will follow when sucide bombers and muderors are not trained and sent from our neighbourhood. But the fundamental point here is identifying with Afghanistan, if you ask 2nd or 3rd generation Afghans if they identify with Afghanistan, you will get the same answer yes we do, although Afghanistan maybe a mess.

Migration has been a normal trend for many countries, although it tends to happen in huge numbers when social harmony is under threat. Nonetheless a country will never succeed when its brightest students are more interested to find jobs aboard and want a more stable environment for their families. The same can be applied for the businessman of Karachi and the adverse effect is clear when the 2nd largest real estate purchasers in Dubai are Pakistani's. All that potential capital is wasted abroad and no money is staying inside our country which explain's the amount of business confidence held on Pakistan. Statistics are going against your opinion because more people are leaving the country known as Afghanistan rather than refugees entering it. Yes we will continue to influence and mess with your country until you learn to respect the sovereignty of Pakistan and not allow India to use your territory for launching attacks against Pakistan. If these Afghans are keen to retain their identity then when will they leave Pakistan and live in Kabul?

Can you ask the same for most countries in our neighbourhood if they had anarchy for 4 decades if they will identify with their homeland, I doubt most will. Iraq is a good example.

Would you agree its the fault the Afghan's who have allowed anarchy to exists in the last 4 decades. Pakistan did not dispose of the King and we did not put Najibullah in power. Afghan's are killing Afghans therefore you only have yourself to blame.

Yes I am sure there are millions of Bangladishi folks who would love to go back to Pakistan, but a month or so ago when some religious party leaders who sided with Pakistan were hanged for crimes against the nation, I didn't see those millions that you pointed to, come out and protest ? Where were those millions when these leaders were hanged who were at the forefront of defending the Pakistani state in the time war ?

More later

Are you disputing the historical fact that 1 million Bihari's were killed after 1971 in Bangladesh? JI has a significant following in Bangladesh, therefore the only reason why dissent has not occurred because the government has used the Army to kill and silence protest. Many people in Bangladesh think that the event of partitioning is wrong, I never said the majority as times have changed. The hanging was heavily criticized around the world and it was politically motivated. Nonetheless India interferes in Bangladesh where the death of 40 top rank officers 4 years ago was attributed to RAW, because a military coup was about to take place to oust Hasina who is a Indian stooge. We are not going to allow the Indians to do the same thing in Afghanistan like they did in Bangladesh, and if your politicians will not change then Kabul will continuously burn for 100 years. Your people will suffer as a result and your country will never progress. Kick Indian influence out of your country and side with Pakistan, so that we can become an economic powerhouse together. If you disregard such an offer then you can only blame yourself.

 

[That Guy]

Thats the sad part, Pakistan and pakistanis believe Afghanistan to be some play ground more to say their own home ground.

You know exactly what I meant, don't try and change the meaning behind this. Afghanistan is the ground of the great game being played between the US, China, Russia, Pakistan, Iran and India, and when I say "great game", I mean the geopolitical term.

Wow I never thought you are this ill informed about Afghanistan my friend 40 years of war and misery, so many other ills that plague this country and our neighbors who have preyed on us for decades, but the only thing I dare is the Afghan identity, show me one country that has left standing after only few years of war, Afghans with all its problems are still proud of being Afghans and this country has stood for centuries. This may sound harsh but you have lost half of your country because they didn't believe in the Pakistan project, you can blame the Indians but you need to accept the fact the there are people who do not subscribe to your notion of Pakistan, probably the only ones who do strongly are the Punjabies because they are in the driving seat as for as the governance and power is concerned.

First of all, nice cherry picking.

Afghanistan's problems aren't 40 years old, they're centuries old. Afghanistan is solely responsible for it's own demise, no one else is, Afghans put themselves in this position. There are plenty of nations that continue to exist, despite being in decades of war, that doesn't mean they're united. Afghanistan is similar to Somalia, in the sense that a central government exists, but has no real control outside of large cities and the capital. Afghanistan, again like Somalia, is a nation in name only, and as much as that may hurt for you to hear this, acknowledging this basic fact is the first step in solving the problems that Afghanistan faces. Ghani realizes this, Abdullah Abdullah and Karzai realized this to an extent, people like Dostum don't realize it at all, which is why they continue to have their own private militias, claiming to be the true army men of Afghanistan, and ignoring the central army's jurisdiction (for a lack of a better term) completely.

Afghanistan has always suffered from tribalism, which is why it is in the mess it is.

I do, however, agree with you on one thing: Pakistan lost East Pakistan because of it's own stupidity, India merely took advantage of it. On the other hand, Pakistani nationalism has actually risen in all of the provinces of Pakistan, including the troubled Balochistan. There are a record number of minorities entering government institution, Balochis are joining the militiary at a record number, not just for the money, but because they are sick and tired of the separatists causing misery among the population. I will admit that Pakistan still has a long way to go, a VERY long way to go, but at the very least, Pakistan are realizing this as a fact, can Afghanistan say the same? Not really.

I say the biggest ill Afghanistan faces is being part of this hostile neighborhood with extremely obtuse competing interests and then followed by lack of education, education is the key to solving all our ills.

I didn't mean to be harsh here but just merely taking a strong exception to your lack understanding of the Afghan issues.
I don't want to even start with your concept of the ANSF, lets leave that to some other day

/Peace

I don't consider anything you say as harsh at all, it's your opinion, that's fine by me.

Afghanistan's problems are not a hostile neighborhood, Afghanistan's problem is a lack of unity. Tribes are more loyal to themselves than they are to the nation, going so far as to start gun fights with other tribes over simple disputes, and that is a major problem, you can't simply ignore this and say it doesn't exist. Afghanistan's problems will not be solved by blaming outside forces, what does blaming Pakistan solve? Will it solve Afghanistan's security situation? will it solve the fact that the ANSF has a record high desertion rate? Will it solve the fact that Afghanistan is currently suffering from a shortage of supplies in food and medicine, because they decided to boycott Pakistani products for more expensive products from central Asia? Will it solve the fact that Afghanistan's GDP has pretty much plummeted? The answer is NO to all of the above questions.

Hostile neighborhood is not a valid excuse, especially since everyone in the neighborhood is trying their best to fix your country.