Afghan gunmen attack Kabul hotel

[Irfan Baloch]

thank you sher,

I appreciate your reply

remember that the terrorists might be weaker and lost a lot of ground but they are not out.

your comments about taliban's recent drawback reminds me of the time when Indian members used Gen Kyani's remarks he made during the completion of Mohmand Agency operation where he said that TTP's back was broken and later on there were spade of terrorist attacks on the civilian and military installations and a "secret" guest with a taste for multiple wives met an unnatural end when a Navy SEAL fired a "warning" shot in his forehead later on making him fishfood in the ocean.

I understand and agree with what you are saying because I see this happening in my area as well. people who are thousands of miles away from this unfortunate conflict just pick stories of their liking and post condescending remarks to satisfy their sick minds. by the way, when a Pakistani is mentioning a terrorist attack in Afghanistan he is not celebrating it or gloating over it like the trolls do over terrorism in Pakistan. it is actually showing a mirror to the occupation forces who are so deep buried in their own behinds that all they can do is criticise Pakistan.

I understand how terrorists work, yes they can have foreign support but its the local population that hides them as well
I know myself baloch families who hid their sons that had killed univeristy professors in Quetta and some doctors in Khuzdar. they very well knew what their sons or nephews had done was wrong, immoral and below the grace and honour of a Baloch but they didnt want to loose their sons.
same is true for people whoa re not directly involved in any violence but secretly support them or see the forces as oppressors.

this is the same case for TTP in Pakistan and the taliban in Afghanistan.
they dont have any marked buildings or cities. they live among the local population dont they? they need to be exposed by people when they are either in Pakistan or Afghanistan for the sake of Pakistan and Afghanistan

because this is hurting us both. Americans can go and invade another country for all we care. they can put any spin on it and produce X amount of movies celebrating their awesomeness. we just want this conflict to end and occupation forces out of this region as soon as possible because this is something that people of our countries will never accept no matter how much Americans bully and coarse the puppet governments of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

 

[53fd]

Lol you are very good in changing your words! 'classified upscale resort' last time I saw a bunch (10 girls and 4 boys) of deaf and mute people in that hotel and dozen of shopkeepers, hand seller, etc.. btw how many times you have been into that place? because you are so sure that it's a 'classified' hotel where only elites visit.

I did use 'classified' along with the word 'sensitive' in my first post. Classified does not mean sensitive. And anyways, no I have never visited the hotel, but this is what different news reports say about this place:

The Spozhmai is a haunt of the wealthy Kabul elite and on Thursday nights -- the start of the Afghan weekend -- is usually packed with families and mixed groups of men and women.

The hotel, situated on a man-made lake , is a popular place for well-to-do Afghans to spend Thursday night — the beginning of the Afghan weekend — or for picnic excursions on a Friday when paddleboats and horse rides are on offer.*

The Taliban, who are leading a bloody insurgency against Karzai's Western-backed government, told AFP that the hotel was attacked because of "wild parties, drinking and prostitution" every Thursday.

Spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid accused foreign diplomats, and members of the US-led NATO mission and the Kabul government of attending the hotel's Thursday gatherings.

Taliban storm lakeside hotel in Kabul, 18 dead - Yahoo! News

And prove your claim:

not the (almost) weekly happenings of Kabul.

The same applies to Pakistan!

Happens only on the regions bordering Afghanistan, the rest of the country is free from this menace that you face all over the country, especially in the military fortress known as Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan.

You can get into the nitty gritty of things, but even your President admitted that the Karzai/NATO mission in Afghanistan has failed, and that insurgent attacks in Afghanistan are on the rise.

“I have noticed that these days, in the past one, two or three months, attacks on our soldiers, police and intelligence officers have increased,” Karzai said.

“Every day we have at least 20 to 25 casualties, every day at least 20 to 25 of our youths are making the sacrifice for this country and are being killed.”

Karzai admitted his government and its Western allies had failed to bring peace to Afghanistan, which has suffered almost continuous conflict for the past three decades, saying “our land has not been secured, our homes, our people are not safe”.

“Neither the Afghan government nor the international forces fighting terrorism here could bring security,” he said.

Karzai warns attacks on rise in Afghanistan | DAWN.COM

Tell me, what's the point of having security personnel when they cannot control most of their country's territory, when they can't stop insurgent attacks even inside the heart of Kabul?

 

[Sher Malang]

I did use 'classified' along with the word 'sensitive' in my first post. Classified does not mean sensitive. And anyways, no I have never visited the hotel, but this is what different news reports say about this place:



Taliban storm lakeside hotel in Kabul, 18 dead - Yahoo! News

That's a total lie in Afghanistan no one goes for personal parties or site seeing till late nights 45 minutes far from city, I told you before that you are among those who is feed by various news sources not from 'reality'. You have never been to that place, don't know till what times at night Afghans stay out and your prove is a news source.

Happens only on the regions bordering Afghanistan, the rest of the country is free from this menace that you face all over the country, especially in the military fortress known as Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan.

You can get into the nitty gritty of things, but even your President admitted that the Karzai/NATO mission in Afghanistan has failed, and that insurgent attacks in Afghanistan are on the rise.

Tell me you are failed to prove it because you took you time to search for it but nothing came up 'as weekly attacks'.

Karzai warns attacks on rise in Afghanistan | DAWN.COM

Tell me, what's the point of having security personnel when they cannot control most of their country's territory, when they can't stop insurgent attacks even inside the heart of Kabul?

Again you are feed by a news not from reality, it was a political move by Karzai for gathering all three powers in Parliament to show his commitment to the world for eradicating corruption and showing the hardships of Afghan government before going to Tokyo conference where he will ask for 4$ civilian aid / year.

 

[MUHARIB]

RIP to the fallen.

 

[53fd]

That's a total lie in Afghanistan no one goes for personal parties or site seeing till late nights, I told you before that you are among those who is feed by various news sources not from 'reality'. You have never been to that place, don't know till what times at night Afghans stay out and your prove is a news source.

It's not just this source, there are many other sources as well that I didn't quote. Why should I believe what you are saying, instead of believing you? You're the one out of touch with reality, look at what President is saying:

Karzai warns attacks on rise in Afghanistan | DAWN.COM

Tell me you are failed to prove it because you took you time to search for it but nothing came up 'as weekly attacks'.

You are stuck with the nitty gritty, however, I will give you a few links to give you an idea:

Afghanistan, Schema-Root news

Wakht - Make the Difference

Bakhtar News | ????? ???? ????? | ? ????? ???? ?????

it was a political move by Karzai for gathering all three powers in Parliament to show his commitment to the world for eradicating corruption and showing the hardships of Afghan government

Then you should surely agree that it was a political move by Karzai to act as a proxy for NATO/US post 9/11, (fighting against his own Afghan locals) to stay in power? Why do you choose to believe what he says sometimes, but not what he says other times?

Look, I have never supported the Taliban, and I condemn their attacks in Afghanistan. However, I have said that 'desperation can make people do inexplicable things', & this is the situation here as well. They are your local Afghan people, you want to fight your own people at the behest of the US, but you also want them to come at the negotiating table to talk. What kind of strategy is that?

You can boast that even if the ANP/ANA is not losing, & while the Taliban is not 'winning', the Taliban is not losing either; & the biggest loser is Afghanistan. Militant activity all over the country has increased, & Afghanistan is the biggest loser in this scenario: it is & will be in an eternal state of turmoil. The country's 'economy' is entirely dependent on foreign financial assistance. The ANA/ANP does not have any money from Afghanistan to be able to sustain itself, forget about expansion. Who do you support, your country or anti-Taliban forces?

The Taliban are not only a threat to Afghanistan, they are a threat to Pakistan as well, but they are the Afghan people, & the fact that the Karzai government is constantly stirring various hornet's nests over the country, exacerbating the situation of the country to please the US (& stay in power); jeopardizing the security of not only Afghanistan, but Pakistan & the neighboring countries; shows that a better strategy than fighting & talking must be adopted by the Karzai regime for 2014.

 

[Sher Malang]

It's not just this source, there are many other sources as well that I didn't quote. Why should I believe what you are saying, instead of believing you? You're the one out of touch with reality, look at what President is saying:

Karzai warns attacks on rise in Afghanistan | DAWN.COM

Lol you have now made a joke of your self by telling me being out of touch with reality! you are forgetting from where I am posting and you are posting on PDF!

You are stuck with the nitty gritty, however, I will give you a few links to give you an idea:

Afghanistan, Schema-Root news

Wakht - Make the Difference

Bakhtar News | ????? ???? ????? | ? ????? ???? ?????

FAIL! Show me something that proves your words 'weekly attacks on Kabul' and 'at will'.

Then you should surely agree that it was a political move by Karzai to act as a proxy for NATO/US post 9/11, (fighting against his own Afghan locals) to stay in power? Why do you choose to believe what he says sometimes, but not what he says other times?

It's not about him staying in power he will leave and has no intention for re-election what ever he is doing is for post 2014 Afghanistan.

Look, I have never supported the Taliban, and I condemn their attacks in Afghanistan. However, I have said that 'desperation can make people do inexplicable things', & this is the situation here as well. They are your local Afghan people, you want to fight your own people at the behest of the US, but you also want them to come at the negotiating table to talk. What kind of strategy is that?

They aren't our people as long as they are taking orders from outsiders and even their birth was not in Afghanistan!

You can boast that even if the ANP/ANA is not losing, & while the Taliban is not 'winning', the Taliban is not losing either; & the biggest loser is Afghanistan. Militant activity all over the country has increased, & Afghanistan is the biggest loser in this scenario: it is & will be in an eternal state of turmoil. The country's 'economy' is entirely dependent on foreign financial assistance. The ANA/ANP does not have any money from Afghanistan to be able to sustain itself, forget about expansion. Who do you support, your country or anti-Taliban forces?

I never said that Afghanistan is not a loser, Afghanistan and it's people is the biggest loser in this WOT, That's wrong Afghanistan is not a country which came into being just in 2001 we are here from centuries and we existed without aid, the aid is coming from US only goes to the robbers in Afghanistan not to the people, Afghans are surviving from their own earnings not from aid. True ANA/ANP takes 90% of it's aid from US/NATO 600$mln is Afghanistan's contribution which will increase year by year. Afghanistan was in turmoil before 2001 but not now and is on the right track.

The Taliban are not only a threat to Afghanistan, they are a threat to Pakistan as well, but they are the Afghan people, & the fact that the Karzai government is constantly stirring various hornet's nests over the country, exacerbating the situation of the country to please the US (& stay in power); jeopardizing the security of not only Afghanistan, but Pakistan & the neighboring countries; shows that a better strategy than fighting & talking must be adopted by the Karzai regime for 2014.

You are all wrong again, Karzai has skewed the west at his best and has no plan to remain in power after 2014!

 

[Shardul.....the lion]

Waiting for the news that each and every bastard taliban responsible for attack is send to hell.

 

[53fd]

Lol you have now made a joke of your self by telling me being out of touch with reality! you are forgetting from where I am posting and you are posting on PDF!

I am quoting you from sources based in Afghanistan. Which is just as good a source as you are, & more impartial as well.

FAIL! Show me something that proves your words 'weekly attacks on Kabul' and 'at will'.

You can open the links, & see how frequently the attacks take place. It is not my job to spoon-feed you everything.

It's not about him staying in power he will leave and has no intention for re-election what ever he is doing is for post 2014 Afghanistan.

He stayed in power by being a puppet to the US, & he stays in power from today to 2014 being a puppet to the US. We don't know what his real intentions in Afghanistan are till 2014 comes. He also needs a 'backup plan' (a place to get refuge in) if things go 'wrong' in Afghanistan.

They aren't our people as long as they are taking orders from outsiders and even their birth was not in Afghanistan!

Karzai is taking orders from outsiders, is he not Afghan? The Taliban have denied being influenced/under the control/taking orders from Pakistan. And most of the Taliban fighters & leaders come from Afghanistan, from regions in the Eastern Afghanistan belt. Taliban fighters/leaders were born in places like Kandahar, Helmand, Paktika, Paktia, Logar, Wardak, Kunar etc.

I never said that Afghanistan is not a loser, Afghanistan and it's people is the biggest loser in this WOT, That's wrong Afghanistan is not a country which came into being just in 2001 we are here from centuries and we existed without aid, the aid is coming from US only goes to the robbers in Afghanistan not to the people, Afghans are surviving from their own earnings not from aid. True ANA/ANP takes 90% of it's aid from US/NATO 600$mln is Afghanistan's contribution which will increase year by year. Afghanistan was in turmoil before 2001 but not now and is on the right track.

The traditional Afghanistan from centuries before referred in Afghan literature is geographically not the same as the Afghanistan today. Afghanistan has always been in turmoil for centuries with Pashtuns fighting other ethnicities (if you call that "surviving", then may God help you), the other ethnicities fighting each other; & geographically changing (whether that is the historical Khorasan, or the British that drew the Durand Line in the 1890s). The foreign aid that Afghanistan gets goes to the warlords & the corrupt Karzai government that loots everything it gets, and poppy is your cash crop. You have no economy, 90% of Afghanistan's budget has been coming from foreign aid:

U.S., other donors supported 90 percent of Afghan budget over five years, GAO finds - Checkpoint Washington - The Washington Post

You are all wrong again, Karzai has skewed the west at his best and has no plan to remain in power after 2014!

We'll see what happens in 2014 in 2014.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Then you should surely agree that it was a political move by Karzai to act as a proxy for NATO/US post 9/11, (fighting against his own Afghan locals) to stay in power? Why do you choose to believe what he says sometimes, but not what he says other times?

very well said

this is the case with most of us

we chose to accept stories from same source or person that only suite us.
e.g Indians will gleefully quote Najam Saithi on one occasion where he is criticising the role of military in Pakistani politics etc but might look the other way and call for his murder when he talks about supporting the same military vs enemies of Pakistan. or ignoring his comments which show India or US badly

 

[Oldman1]

I am quoting you from sources based in Afghanistan. Which is just as good a source as you are, & more impartial as well.





You can open the links, & see how frequently the attacks take place. It is not my job to spoon-feed you everything.



He stayed in power by being a puppet to the US, & he stays in power from today to 2014 being a puppet to the US. We don't know what his real intentions in Afghanistan are till 2014 comes. He also needs a 'backup plan' (a place to get refuge in) if things go 'wrong' in Afghanistan.



Karzai is taking orders from outsiders, is he not Afghan? The Taliban have denied being influenced/under the control/taking orders from Pakistan. And most of the Taliban fighters & leaders come from Afghanistan, from regions in the Eastern Afghanistan belt. Taliban fighters/leaders were born in places like Kandahar, Helmand, Paktika, Paktia, Logar, Wardak, Kunar etc.


The traditional Afghanistan from centuries before referred in Afghan literature is geographically not the same as the Afghanistan today. Afghanistan has always been in turmoil for centuries with Pashtuns fighting other ethnicities (if you call that "surviving", then may God help you), the other ethnicities fighting each other; & geographically changing (whether that is the historical Khorasan, or the British that drew the Durand Line in the 1890s). The foreign aid that Afghanistan gets goes to the warlords & the corrupt Karzai government that loots everything it gets, and poppy is your cash crop. You have no economy, 90% of Afghanistan's budget has been coming from foreign aid:

U.S., other donors supported 90 percent of Afghan budget over five years, GAO finds - Checkpoint Washington - The Washington Post



We'll see what happens in 2014 in 2014.

Most of the Taliban are comprised of Afghan AND Pakistani. Its a fact that many Afghans who were forced to reside in Pakistan during the Soviet-Afghan war trained in Pakistan. Didn't you remember that when the invasion of Afghanistan started after 9/11 thousands of Pakistanis traveled to Afghanistan to help the Taliban only to lose so many and forced to go back to Pakistan. Did you know that attacks draw down when winter comes because people in Pakistan cannot travel the mountains to do attacks. Did you know that there are many dead Pakistani killed by ISAF and ANA fighting us. Why do you think we do drone attacks? Just for the fun of it? Hey guys lets fire missiles into Pakistan because its so cool.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

I can't really understand What Bilal Haider is trying to say here . I mean what is his point and that of other Pakistanis here.

Fine let me just for the convinience of understanding the Pakistani point of view admit that the NATO and Afghan forces are not doing a good enough job of providing security to Afghanistan and that the Taliban is still very strong and every thing is gloomy .

What should the Afghans and NATO do ? They will only try to make the situation better . Okay let us also ignore the fact that after reaching a peak in 2010 Nato/ISAF casulaties have gone down in Afghanistan and are progressively going down , similar to what happened in Iraq in 2007/8.Let us just believe that things are progressively getting worse. The only option that the NATO and Afghans have is to try and improve the situation .

What does Bilal thing should be the way forward ?

1. Increase NATO forces

2. Use B2 bombers on Taliban safe havens in North Waziristan

3.Or , just give up and let Taliban take over and go back to the situation in the 90s.

What is your view ? What is the best way forward considering the Taliban is not ready to come to the Talking table and is not ready to give up fighting ?

 

[53fd]

I can't really understand What Bilal Haider is trying to say here . I mean what is his point and that of other Pakistanis here.

Fine let me just for the convinience of understanding the Pakistani point of view admit that the NATO and Afghan forces are not doing a good enough job of providing security to Afghanistan and that the Taliban is still very strong and every thing is gloomy .

What should the Afghans and NATO do ? They will only try to make the situation better . Okay let us also ignore the fact that after reaching a peak in 2010 Nato/ISAF casulaties have gone down in Afghanistan and are progressively going down , similar to what happened in Iraq in 2007/8.Let us just believe that things are progressively getting worse. The only option that the NATO and Afghans have is to try and improve the situation .

What does Bilal thing should be the way forward ?

1. Increase NATO forces

2. Use B2 bombers on Taliban safe havens in North Waziristan

3.Or , just give up and let Taliban take over and go back to the situation in the 90s.

What is your view ? What is the best way forward considering the Taliban is not ready to come to the Talking table and is not ready to give up fighting ?

For lasting peace to happen, more "hornet's nests" must not be stirred. Stirring more hornet's nests (which is precisely what the Karzai regime/NATO/US Forces are doing right now) will result in the further destabilization of Afghanistan, & its effects will be felt all over the region: Afghanistan will be the biggest loser, as it will suffer from the turmoil & mayhem caused by the conflict between Taliban & anti-Taliban forces. A negotiated peace settlement with the Taliban must be reached ASAP, & the violence in Afghanistan MUST end. The NATO/US troops will leave in 2014, & Afghanistan and the surrounding countries will suffer from the destabilization of Afghanistan, while NATO/US troops will not have to face the consequences.

Violence in Afghanistan has increased steadily, & was at its peak in 2011, & even though 2012 has been relatively more peaceful, the violence has still been worse than most years. Instead of just listening to US/NATO military officials & their false claims, try to look at every point of view to come up with a more balanced viewpoint:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/afghan...merican-media-misleads-public-afghan-war.html

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

For lasting peace to happen, more "hornet's nests" must not be stirred. Stirring more hornet's nests (which is precisely what the Karzai regime/NATO/US Forces are doing right now) will result in the further destabilization of Afghanistan, & its effects will be felt all over the region: Afghanistan will be the biggest loser, as it will suffer from the turmoil & mayhem caused by the conflict between Taliban & anti-Taliban forces. A negotiated peace settlement with the Taliban must be reached ASAP, & the violence in Afghanistan MUST end. The NATO/US troops will leave in 2014, & Afghanistan and the surrounding countries will suffer from the destabilization of Afghanistan, while NATO/US troops will not have to face the consequences.

Violence in Afghanistan has increased steadily, & was at its peak in 2011, & even though 2012 has been relatively more peaceful, the violence has still been worse than most years. Instead of just listening to US/NATO military officials & their false claims, try to look at every point of view to come up with a more balanced viewpoint:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/afghan...merican-media-misleads-public-afghan-war.html

I got my information about the Casualties of NATO form the Icasualties.org website which i believe is a fairly trustworthy source. The casualties peaked in 2010 and have been declining since . Some sections of media you must realise can also exagerrate to sensationalise stuff as they do in both India and Pak as well .If one was to see Pakistani or international media for info on Pakistan , people would think it is some totally terrorist infested country which obviously isn't the truth on the ground .

Anyway , let us not divert , my question was for what solution Pakistanis want for Afghanistan . Okay you suggested a negotiated peace settlement but as I said an important section of the Taliban is not interested in peace. Why was Burhannudin Rabbani murdered when he was trying to get the two sides to talk . There have been many reports of infighting between the Taliban with the Anti peace Talibanis targetting the Pro-peace Taliban .In such a situation I don't think The NATO and Afghan forces are lef twith any choice but to continue with what they are doing .

Btw , Americans are not leaving , they will leave about 20,000 marines in the country post 2014 as well .This , they have already admitted many times. This doesn't leave any option with Afghanistan but to ensure that the Afghan forces are strong enough to deal with the Taliban , and till that time keep some American boots on the ground.

Ofcourse , if Taliban as a whole is willing to give up fighting and talk peace , there can be no better solution , but that doesn't seem to be happening any time in the near future .

 

[Pauper]

The US and Pakistan appeared to be heading for renewed collision after a top American General blamed a bloody attack on a Kabul hotel on Pakistan-based Haqqani network and White House vowed to take "necessary steps" to mitigate the threat. "Our concern about militants using Pakistan as a


safe haven from which to launch attacks against our forces is well known," White House Deputy Press Secretary Josh Earnest told reporters travelling with President Barack Obama on Air Force One, to Tampa.
"We'll take steps necessary to mitigate that threat," the spokesman said in hard comments after US commander of NATO troops in Afghanistan General John Allen accused the Haqqani network of orchestrating a 12-hour siege on a lakeside hotel in Kabul that killed 18 people yesterday.

In a statement, Allen blamed the al-Qaeda-linked network just weeks after US Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said the United States was running out of patience with Pakistan over its refusal to eliminate terror havens.

Earnest said Washington had raised the issue "both publicly and privately with the Pakistani government".

We value our relationship with Pakistan and we'll continue to find ways to work together to combat those terrorist groups that pose a threat both to the United States forces, but also to innocent Pakistani civilians, he said.

Asked if White House would send US soldiers across the borders in hot chase of these militants, Earnest said: "I won't preview the kinds of things that are being discussed, and frankly, whether or not they're even being discussed by the administration. But I can tell you that this is something -- this threat is something that we have talked about quite extensively both publicly and privately."

The General's statement said: "Afghan National Security Forces and coalition military sources acknowledge that this attack bears the signature of the Haqqani network, which continues to target and kill innocent Afghans and blatantly violate Afghan sovereignty from the safety of Pakistan."

"This is yet again a barbaric act perpetrated by the Haqqani network. And I would also note, as Gen Allen at ISAF did, that the (Afghan National Security Forces) responded effectively," Pentagon Press Secretary George Little told reporters yesterday.

The Haqqani network, based in Pakistan, is allied with the Taliban and it often targets Afghan and coalition troops in Afghanistan, Pentagon officials said.

The US continues to press the Pakistanis to "take action on their side of the border to prevent the safe haven there from remaining a safe place for terrorists to operate," he said. "We would like for (Pakistanis) to do more. We've communicated that, and we'd like to cooperate with them in finding ways to pursue militants that threaten Afghans, threaten ISAF forces and threaten Pakistanis."

Little said in its talks with Pakistan, "the real focus is on trying to drive closer US-Pakistani cooperation to bring pressure to bear against the Haqqani network and other militants who operate along the Afghan-Pakistan border."

State Department spokesperson Victoria Nuland said that the US is pressing Pakistan to squeeze the Haqqani network.

"We certainly share that view, and as you know, we are in continual discussion with the Pakistani Government about our concerns about the operations of the Haqqani network and the need to squeeze them far harder than we are," she said.

"We've been making the point for a long time that we can do more, they can do more, we can do more together, and this is at the core of this work we're trying to do to get past the differences we've had on counterterrorism so that we can really be maximizing our effectiveness together," Nuland added.

US vows to take steps to mitigate threat of safe havens in Pak - Hindustan Times

 

[Areesh]

The US and Pakistan appeared to be heading for renewed collision after a top American General blamed a bloody attack on a Kabul hotel on Pakistan-based Haqqani network and White House vowed to take "necessary steps" to mitigate the threat.