Addressing the Widening Gap between India / Pakistan for Armored Machines

[Type59]

The IA have 4500 3rd generation tanks to PA's 900 3rd generation tanks. There is a major mismatch in capabilities between the two. And almost all 4500 tanks will get major upgrades over the next few years, including an active protection system for half the tank fleet.

PA needs 1000 more modernised 3rd gen tanks or better over the next few years, at least before India starts receiving Armata or similar.

There are many ways to disable tanks. I be happy if India becomes a tank centric force. Buy more. PA should not counter tanks with tanks.

FYI. AL zarrar, in terms of firepower can compete with any Indian tank. The FC system is day/night capable. Mobility is good. Armor is not its strong point. Pakistan has over 1500 tanks that are equipped with 125mm guns.

 

[Signalian]

Literally much better then a single Baktar Shikan on APC's
View attachment 524445
View attachment 524445

You made an ATGM out of a SAM (Anza)

 

[Thorough Pro]

The itch we get is really in our balls, since Indians lack that the only itch they know is in their arses

Y it is taken for granted that india will be in offensive n pakistan defensive...it is possible one more pakistan jarnail gets itch in his rear end to repeat something like kargil offensive

 

[Signalian]

India

• Arjun MBT - 242 Heavy Tanks
• T-90S - 1,650 3rd Generation Tanks
• T-72 Ajeya - 2,400

Infantary Fighting Vehicles

• BMP-2 "Sarath" - 1,600 Vehicles

Troop Carrying Trucks

• 60,000 Trucks
• 30,000 SUV jeeps

Now Supplemented with Apache Helicopter Support from Air
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pakistan

• Al-Khalid - 324 Units since 1990's only made 300 units
• T-80UD - 300 Units
  
• Al-Zarar - 504 Units
• Type 85-IIAP - 284 Units

Only recently we have seen some push with

• 1-5 Hamza APC
• 0 Viper Infantry fighting vehicles

Few questions by me...

1. Are you promoting MBT Vs MBT battles?
2. Why does PA need more MBT?
3.Why have Type-59 not been counted?
4. Why are you including trucks when you know that 1.1 million troops need more trucks than half million troops?
5. Why have you not included Artillery(SP and MLRS) and AD?
6. What about engineering vehicles?
7. Where are dedicated ATGM carriers ?

Lastly,M-113 and Talha are around 2000.

 

[BHarwana]

Few questions by me...

1. Are you promoting MBT Vs MBT battles?
2. Why does PA need more MBT?
3.Why have Type-59 not been counted?
4. Why are you including trucks when you know that 1.1 million troops need more trucks than half million troops?
5. Why have you not included Artillery(SP and MLRS) and AD?
6. What about engineering vehicles?
7. Where are dedicated ATGM carriers ?

Lastly,M-113 and Talha are around 2000.

He wanted to highlight the need for Pakistan to purchase or construct more MBT.

Countering MBT is very easy and there are 101 ways to do it. If world has learned anything from 2006 Israel Lebanon war it was that forget MBT but yet MBT is a major need if you intend to push or defend a line

 

[Signalian]

He wanted to highlight the need for Pakistan to purchase or construct more MBT.

Countering MBT is very easy and there are 101 ways to do it. If world has learned anything from 2006 Israel Lebanon war it was that forget MBT but yet MBT is a major need if you intend to push or defend a line

And I want to highlight the fact that getting new MBT only is not wise, its best to induct new IFV, new Arty, new AD along with it.

 

[SQ8]

Few questions by me...

1. Are you promoting MBT Vs MBT battles?
2. Why does PA need more MBT?
3.Why have Type-59 not been counted?
4. Why are you including trucks when you know that 1.1 million troops need more trucks than half million troops?
5. Why have you not included Artillery(SP and MLRS) and AD?
6. What about engineering vehicles?
7. Where are dedicated ATGM carriers ?

Lastly,M-113 and Talha are around 2000.

Considering that the first kind are very unlikely now in the norther Punjab and the focus of the purported CSD thrust(and pretty much every Indian battle-plan which they revise like facebook messenger by adding new emojis and video calls yet is still pretty much the same thing) is focused on the desert, any future conflict will be an integrated space with both sides throwing UAVs into the air trying to find targets for air and artillery while using blitzkrieg thrusts to try and use attacks and counterattacks for force attrition.

For any attack to be truly successful, the ratio of the attacking to the defending force not counting "multipliers" has to be 3-1 since for the defender it is still the advantage of the home-ground. Even a cursory look at the ORBAT would show that this figure was reached by India back in the 80's. The only hope Pakistan had was using dug in positions which it has done to great effect in the Punjab but in the desert it will be extremely difficult to prevent an incursion. The flipside is that the deeper the incursion for India, the more difficult will it be for them to maintian logistics hence their hope of trying to push back the SLOC for us and then focus on attacking through Kashmir and then a high attrition north Punjab to take over most of the disputed territory or deal enough punishment without compromising any major urban center to avoid the nuclear "threshold".

Which brings in the need for more conventional balancing on our end because that threshold is something we would lose justification for, and so keep mentioning the need for conventional "balance" of 1-3, something India broke in both Land and Navy, and is not approaching it with the Air Force.

 

[randomradio]

Yes, the turret can be made as per need and possibly can be mounted on APCs already in use with PA.

This can add good support to:

I doubt HAT will work any more though.

There are many ways to disable tanks. I be happy if India becomes a tank centric force. Buy more. PA should not counter tanks with tanks.

FYI. AL zarrar, in terms of firepower can compete with any Indian tank. The FC system is day/night capable. Mobility is good. Armor is not its strong point. Pakistan has over 1500 tanks that are equipped with 125mm guns.

Sure. Hopefully someone in PA is reading your post.

 

[BHarwana]

And I want to highlight the fact that getting new MBT only is not wise, its best to induct new IFV, new Arty, new AD along with it.

Yes it is not wise because there are so many MBT counters now that most probably most Indian MBT will rot in storage. We all saw a lot of IDEAS 2018 pics but a fairly simple and not attractive missile in the inventory of JF-17 escaped all our attention. The ammunition displayed along JF-17 was fairly simple but there was one air to surface missile there which is a killer for tank formation.

It is air to surface cluster bomb the white missile in front of JF-17 at ideas was the best answer to mbt movement.

Here you can see it in the pic behind the stair case was a white air to ground missile.

 

[randomradio]

And I want to highlight the fact that getting new MBT only is not wise, its best to induct new IFV, new Arty, new AD along with it.

Isn't Pak doing that already in some ways? The HQ-16 and HQ-7 orders. The interest in the SH-15.

Dunno if PA is interested in IFVs, but plenty of Talhas are coming in.

 

[Agito]

India will be on the offensive and attackers need greater ratio for attack

Pakistan has defensive strategy and thus does not need to match armoured numbers

Pakistani anti tank teams would make mince meat of Indian armour even without heavy tanks

Both sides will mostly likely be on the offensive on certain parts of the front, in fact Pakistan will mostly likely have to be very aggressive in the beginning as bringing the fight close to its populated areas is a bad idea, so it will try to take it across the border. Being only on the defensive gives the initiative to the attacker which is a terrible idea. Always hold the initiative.

It is true that the defender needs less to defend with but is there a fortified line somewhere along the border? I've never heard of one. Most likely just defensive earth works, which means the defender can't hold for long especially against concentrated fire. The true victor will be the one who is able to breakthrough the line of the other in local numerically superiority.

Anti-tank teams are the best way to counter armor, but airborne and light infantry are the best way to counter ATGM units. It means those locations will have heavy infantry combat until cleared where the armor can breakthrough into the hinterland.

Honestly, if Pakistan's grand plan is only defensive then I think there needs to be some permanent heavy fortifications along the border. Otherwise it's just regular maneuver warfare where skill, numbers, and firepower is king.

 

[Roybot]

Apart from the numerical superiority the IAF also has CBU-105 cluster bombs, which can demolish any enemy tank column within minutes.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Some effort is needed to grow the Tank Figures

• 250 VT4
• 250 Altay

Altay ain't gonna happen

 

[alimobin memon]

Apart from the numerical superiority the IAF also has CBU-105 cluster bombs, which can demolish any enemy tank column within minutes.

Both forces have anti tank cluster bombs.

 

[New World]

PA should buy these from China

View attachment 524429

why not use old tanks and APCs to made them in Pakistan either by upgrading Baktar shikan or buying turkish or chinese missiles..