Acts of Terrorism in pakistan I

[dabong1]

Well to be fair most nation's would have done the same thing in Afghanistan.

I think most other nations would have given proof to the taliban that osama was involved in a attack against them before they did anything.

As for Algeria it was the military who intervened, the ensuing civil was quite disgusting but once again the Jihadis showed there true face.

Google rais and bentalha massacres.

Bro if you check a bit more deeper you will see that algerian military had infiltarated GIA and discredited them.
http://www.colorq.org/HumanRights/article.aspx?d=Algeria&x=military

There are more examples if you check a bit more deeper of algerian officers admitting they had been the ones that had organized the mass killings .

In Egypt Hosni Mubarak was a dictator, he could have declared election results invalid with or without US help. BTW the Brotherhood are the same charming group that produced the likes of Ayman al Zawahiri..

Hosni Mubarak but would not last a day without american support,just like the saudis.
Is not harvard and yale "the same charming group" that produced all the war crimminal presidents of america.
"The greatest crime since World War II has
been U.S. foreign policy."-Ramsey Clark
[Former U.S. Attorney General under President
Lyndon Johnson]

As for Somalia yes I have to agree the US did help but with the Islamic Courts having the same ideology as those fighting them in Iraq and claims of supporting these fighters then it's not really surprising is it..

It is also not surprising why the muslim militants keep attacking the americans when the american are against there islamic ideology.

These Jihadis are the reason why so many muslims have been killed in recent years. ..

In the same vain, it is the fault of american foreign policy that the west keeps getting attacked.

Now tell me something, where do your loyalties lie? To Islam or to the muslim masses

I suspect it's to the former and please don't kop out by saying both, a servant can only have one master.

You need to make a decision. Do you love your people more then you hate america?

Islam first...always first

 

[dabong1]

That "educational institute" is a madrassah, not exactly like Oxford or Harvard I think you have to admit.

So want to have your own defination of education now?
Which madrassah was osama or abdul rashid ghazi study at?

 

[dabong1]

What if the women on TV do not wish to wear a headscarf? In your ideal state would refusal to wear appropriate islamic headware on TV result in some kind of discrimination or would it be allowed?.

As for the headscarf being a measure of modesty, lol that's not true and you know it. True decency comes from within a person.

LOL and wearing a mini skirt is a true measure of modesty?
Yes when i see a woman with a tiny skirt on ,everything hanging out i start thinking of the "person within" and not when am i going to get her back to my place.
Do you think it is right that a muslim woman can be discriminated against for wearing a headscarf.

 

[Scorpius]

I think most other nations would have given proof to the taliban that osama was involved in a attack against them before they did anything.

Perhaps giving proof would have endangered the sources who obtained said 'proof', ever thought of that? Either way the taliban were well aware of OBL and his activities, they had even warned him before IIRC. They claimed responsibility for cole and kenya and later on for 9/11. They had two options, go after osama and his men or allow western troops to operate. They constantly claimed osama was there guest, most likely a stalling tactic designed to buy him some time so he could escape. It was there own fault, any government who cares about the lives of foreigners over it's own citizens is unjust and deserves to be dismantled. They knew if they didn't act the americans would take action.

Bro if you check a bit more deeper you will see that algerian military had infiltarated GIA and discredited them.
http://www.colorq.org/HumanRights/ar...ria&x=military

There are more examples if you check a bit more deeper of algerian officers admitting they had been the ones that had organized the mass killings .

Perhaps the local security forces were not strong enough to take on the militia or were infiltrated. Either way it's juat another example of the low life behaviour of the so called jihadis, you probably don't know these people very well and think they are noble freedom fighters. They will do anything so that they're in gods good books. The things they have justified includes rape and enslavement amongst other sickening things. This has happened in Iraq and other places, there justifications are on the internet also and if you look in the right places you will find them and realise just how evil these people truly are.

Hosni Mubarak but would not last a day without american support,just like the saudis.
Is not harvard and yale "the same charming group" that produced all the war crimminal presidents of america.
"The greatest crime since World War II has
been U.S. foreign policy."-Ramsey Clark
[Former U.S. Attorney General under President
Lyndon Johnson]

Not really, he is a dictator with control of the Armed forces he has survived for a long time and knows the game.

We're not on about american universities, we're on about the brotherhood a so called 'muslim govt'.

It is also not surprising why the muslim militants keep attacking the americans when the american are against there islamic ideology.

In the same vain, it is the fault of american foreign policy that the west keeps getting attacked.

Yes but you can't cry out and say you've been unfairly treaten if you support these people, many people make out such govts to be innocent this is simply untrue.

Not really, OBL doesn't speak for the entire muslim world. He wasn't elected, he has no role in any muslim govt. He is a terrorist. If the palestinians attacked the americans on 9/11 I would understand that but people like oBL have no right to speak on behalf of all muslims or muslims who have been oppressed, eg palestinians. Right now they've harmed muslims more then they've helped them and you know this is true.

Islam first...always first

I think this is the fundamental difference between me and you (and ive often been called a kaffir for having this view). For me religion is personal, for the benefit of the soul. Faith comes from your heart and it is based on feeling, emotion. It's not something concrete or quantifiable. This is at the very core of most religions and without it the religions would mean nothing. What we believe in is mostly determined by the family were born into, we cannot change this. As such I can't believe in Islam the way you do, I have a spiritual side and I do pray and believe in the Islamic way but to devote myself to an ideology based on religion that is something I cannot do.

 

[Scorpius]

LOL and wearing a mini skirt is a true measure of modesty?
Yes when i see a woman with a tiny skirt on ,everything hanging out i start thinking of the "person within" and not when am i going to get her back to my place.
Do you think it is right that a muslim woman can be discriminated against for wearing a headscarf.

First of all we was on about hijabs being a measure of modesty not mini skirts. This is the other extreme and most people do not wear these. We all know that those who wear mini skirts are not modest, but wearing hijab won't suddenly make a person modest/decent. The thing that I dislike about some hijabis is that they lecture you about religion and decency and think that because they wear the hijab they are decent. The truth is many young ones still do all sorts of nasty stuff. Of course non hijabis do the same but they don't pretend to be modest. I see the hijab as a fashion statement thesedays not as a measure of decency.

Do you think it is right that a muslim woman can be discriminated against for wearing a headscarf.

Answer my questions and I will answer yours.

 

[Chrome9]

First of all we was on about hijabs being a measure of modesty not mini skirts. This is the other extreme and most people do not wear these. We all know that those who wear mini skirts are not modest, but wearing hijab won't suddenly make a person modest/decent. The thing that I dislike about some hijabis is that they lecture you about religion and decency and think that because they wear the hijab they are decent. The truth is many young ones still do all sorts of nasty stuff. Of course non hijabis do the same but they don't pretend to be modest. I see the hijab as a fashion statement thesedays not as a measure of decency.

See now here we are coming to prespective. I can't believe that Hijab ISN'T Modest. Scorpius you live in the UK right? ever been to Brighton in the summer? Modesty does spring out to you when you see a bikini clad woman and a hijabi one. True that Hijab doesn't automatically mean you are pious and what-not, but I do see it as a symbol of modesty and submittance to a Greater being. I know you don't like extremes eg bikini/miniskirt vs Niqab, but do think to yourself which one is more likely to be modest in an area surrounded by the opposite sex, or which one would you be more inclined to be intimate with? I mean im not trying to be streiotypical but I do see a whole lot of difference and I definatly see the Hijab as upholding modesty in a democtatic Islamic republic of Pakistan. as for you not seeing Islam as an Ideology well I fully respect that bro, you gave your reasons but all I can say eveyone has difeerent levels of Iman, may allah guide us all.

 

[Chrome9]

That "educational institute" is a madrassah, not exactly like Oxford or Harvard I think you have to admit.

Um i think your out of your mind. have you ever taken a look see into the ALIM course in madrassah's or religeous school of Pakistan? They have a grueling 6 year course are subject to examinations to an independat board and have to learn many things in accordance such as , Islamic law, juridsperence, lanuguages, Persian,arabic, Quaranic interpreations, theology ect. I think we have to dispell the "uneducated mullah" syndrome here. If you guys ever studied or took interest in what these guys go through then you'd realise the level of difficulty of their studies is much harder than yor average open uni degree or your run of the milll diplomas. There is a meticulous syllabi that these guys adhere to and is probably the best institute in Pakistan to teach basic education to impoverished children who if didn't attend these madrassah's wouldn'y be able to spell there own names. Nowonder the Alim degree is now officially recognised as the equivelance to a BA.
That's not to say they don't have a plethora of downsides to them, im just saying that these Madrassah's are real educational institutes in every sense of the word.

 

[roadrunner]

Um i think your out of your mind. have you ever taken a look see into the ALIM course in madrassah's or religeous school of Pakistan? They have a grueling 6 year course are subject to examinations to an independat board and have to learn many things in accordance such as , Islamic law, juridsperence, lanuguages, Persian,arabic, Quaranic interpreations, theology ect. I think we have to dispell the "uneducated mullah" syndrome here. If you guys ever studied or took interest in what these guys go through then you'd realise the level of difficulty of their studies is much harder than yor average open uni degree or your run of the milll diplomas. There is a meticulous syllabi that these guys adhere to and is probably the best institute in Pakistan to teach basic education to impoverished children who if didn't attend these madrassah's wouldn'y be able to spell there own names. Nowonder the Alim degree is now officially recognised as the equivelance to a BA.
That's not to say they don't have a plethora of downsides to them, im just saying that these Madrassah's are real educational institutes in every sense of the word.

Dude, you're out of your mind. Madrassahs teach poor kids who cannot get into the top Pakistani universities. If they were so good, the religious education departments of Universities in Isloo, Karachi etc etc would not be getting any students because it would be better to go to a madrassah. Madrassahs were formed in the 80s, they did not have a qualification requirement for the teaching, and most of them still did not until recently when they have started to be reformed. But since we're talking about the 80s when these schools came up, there were definitely no educational standards in Madrassahs, and for sure the majority of them do not have 6 year intensive courses with independent examiners meticulously determining who passes and who fails Can you find me a website for a madrassah in Pakistan? I can find you a website for virtually all Pakistani universities. Now why don't madrassahs have a good website too, since they're so technologically advanced. Clown!

 

[roadrunner]

There are no set standards of modesty. The Hijab is modest for some cultures, immodest for others.

 

[Chrome9]

Dude, you're out of your mind. Madrassahs teach poor kids who cannot get into the top Pakistani universities. If they were so good, the religious education departments of Universities in Isloo, Karachi etc etc would not be getting any students because it would be better to go to a madrassah. Madrassahs were formed in the 80s, they did not have a qualification requirement for the teaching, and most of them still did not until recently when they have started to be reformed. But since we're talking about the 80s when these schools came up, there were definitely no educational standards in Madrassahs, and for sure the majority of them do not have 6 year intensive courses with independent examiners meticulously determining who passes and who fails Can you find me a website for a madrassah in Pakistan? I can find you a website for both Harvard and Oxford oddly enough, and virtually all Pakistani universities. Now why don't madrassahs have a good website too, since they're so technologically advanced. Clown!

When did I say they were technologically advance? if you use your brain im saying that the level of difficulty and the knowledge the possess should be recognised, not just thrown out like a piece of garbage, if an Alim and bacehlors in English were standing infront of me , the more learned mn would definately be the Alim. I did not ever compare Oxford with a Madrassa, merely i said that the Madrassah is a real eductional institute.
Oh and a student of a secular based uni will never be as much learned as a student from a madrassah regarding Islamic teachings.
Oh and your moronic argument of Madrassah' not having websites, how stupid is that?
but anyway just to prove you wrong http://www.darululoom-deoband.com/
http://www.binoria.org/TheJamia/intro.asp
http://www.jamianizamia.org/
Note to readers: i'm not proving that Madrassah's are more technologically advance than Oxford/harvard rather just arguing that madrassah's deserve to be called proper educational institutes and their graduates deserve recognised degrees/diplomas.
All these website are of Pakistani madrassah's if you want foreign ones i can post that too.

There are no set standards of modesty. The Hijab is modest for some cultures, immodest for others.

Ok clever clogs since this is a Pakistani forum and we're talkin specifically about pakistan I would tend to think that Hijab would be iterprated as modest in Pakistani society/culture.

 

[Scorpius]

See now here we are coming to prespective. I can't believe that Hijab ISN'T Modest. Scorpius you live in the UK right? ever been to Brighton in the summer? Modesty does spring out to you when you see a bikini clad woman and a hijabi one. True that Hijab doesn't automatically mean you are pious and what-not, but I do see it as a symbol of modesty and submittance to a Greater being. I know you don't like extremes eg bikini/miniskirt vs Niqab, but do think to yourself which one is more likely to be modest in an area surrounded by the opposite sex, or which one would you be more inclined to be intimate with? I mean im not trying to be streiotypical but I do see a whole lot of difference and I definatly see the Hijab as upholding modesty in a democtatic Islamic republic of Pakistan. as for you not seeing Islam as an Ideology well I fully respect that bro, you gave your reasons but all I can say eveyone has difeerent levels of Iman, may allah guide us all.

In your example of 'which one would you want to get intimate with', the likelihood would be that the bikini clad lady would be non-pakistani. With Brighton being in the UK and many hijab wearers in the UK being Pakistani I would be more attracted to the hijabi lady. Wearing a hijab doesn't make one less approachable.

I have saw girls wear hijabs and then wear a low cut top along with tight trousers, or matching clothes (see thru works) and high heels. Many of the girls who adopt this fashion also engage in various activities which muslims would consider as immoral, as such I view them as hypocrites and don't see the hijab as being an example of modesty. The most decent girl I know doesn't wear a hijab.

Maybe in a different society it can be modest, but in mine it isnt.

 

[Keysersoze]

Brighton is a bad example as it is pretty much a hedonistic town (I used to live there).

 

[roadrunner]

When did I say they were technologically advance? if you use your brain im saying that the level of difficulty and the knowledge the possess should be recognised, not just thrown out like a piece of garbage, if an Alim and bacehlors in English were standing infront of me , the more learned mn would definately be the Alim. I did not ever compare Oxford with a Madrassa, merely i said that the Madrassah is a real eductional institute.

Picking an Alim having just passed his "Maulvi course" as certified by some Maulvi who probably hasnt got any qualifications himself would be a really good choice. But if you want someone to teach a specific brand of Islam you naturally teach them this interpretation. The point is, the Bachelor in English will have a skill to communicate English. The highly madrassah qualified Alim will have no skill whatsoever except to tell a specific interpretation of Islam..in this case Salafism. Who would be the more independent and critically minded? An Alim who regurgiates everything he learned on his "Maulvi course" at the "Department of Writer", or someone who approached something from a neutral view?

Oh and a student of a secular based uni will never be as much learned as a student from a madrassah regarding Islamic teachings.
Oh and your moronic argument of Madrassah' not having websites, how stupid is that?
but anyway just to prove you wrong http://www.darululoom-deoband.com/
http://www.binoria.org/TheJamia/intro.asp
http://www.jamianizamia.org/
Note to readers: i'm not proving that Madrassah's are more technologically advance than Oxford/harvard rather just arguing that madrassah's deserve to be called proper educational institutes and their graduates deserve recognised degrees/diplomas.
All these website are of Pakistani madrassah's if you want foreign ones i can post that too.

One is of an Indian Madrassah but it's not important. Compare those websites to Pakistani university ones.

Here is a Madrassah university department (Binoria)

Computer Department

Ulama-e-Haq (Upright Scholars) never opposed to the study of sciences and recommended to make its use. In these days one cannot deny the usefulness of computer. Keeping in this view, Jamia Binoria has specially built a computer department. Records of students studying in Jamia, are kept in computer and their examination reports are also preserved here (!!) . Magazines of Jamia Binoria (Al-binoria English & Al-Binoria Urdu) are also composed in the computer department. Jamia has also started Istifta service (answering of questions about Islamic Jurisprudence) via e-mail, this service is managed by the Computer Department.

And now at an Isloo university

The Computer Science department has three well equipped labs having Pentium IV and Duo Core Processors. (with 17" monitors, & touch screens) machines running Windows XP and Linux. These labs are being routinely updated to meet the growing needs of the students and the faculty. The computers in the labs are networked through Intranet. Internet access is available to students via University Intranet. The department's Intranet is mainly used to provide all the courses related material to students. The students are also provided with the software required for their courses and projects. Facility for scanning, CD Burning and printing (quota based) is also provided to the students.

In order to manage the lab requirements, different servers are placed in CS Department, serving the purposes of File server, Proxy Servers, Print Server, and Intranet Server. Their specification is enough for the current work but may be enhanced for future work.

http://www.qau.edu.pk/

There's a noticeable difference in the level of technical stuff mentioned in those two websites

Ok clever clogs since this is a Pakistani forum and we're talkin specifically about pakistan I would tend to think that Hijab would be iterprated as modest in Pakistani society/culture.

Hijab would be interpreted as overly modest for some parts of Pakistan, as the duputta is generally a sign of modesty. A lot of Pakistani women do not wear any head cover at all.

 

[Chrome9]

Picking an Alim having just passed his "Maulvi course" as certified by some Maulvi who probably hasnt got any qualifications himself would be a really good choice. But if you want someone to teach a specific brand of Islam you naturally teach them this interpretation. The point is, the Bachelor in English will have a skill to communicate English. The highly madrassah qualified Alim will have no skill whatsoever except to tell a specific interpretation of Islam..in this case Salafism. Who would be the more independent and critically minded? An Alim who regurgiates everything he learned on his "Maulvi course" at the "Department of Writer", or someone who approached something from a neutral view?

And you know what about me? If i were you i'd stop with the generalisation comments before i make you look like an idiot again. As for which one being more knowlegable, I'd be inlcined to think the student who has gone through 12 years of curriculum that includes courses in Arabic, Tafsir (Qur'anic interpretation), shari'ah (Islamic law), Hadith (recorded sayings and deeds of Prophet Muhammad), Mantiq (logic), and Muslim History. Depending on the educational demands, some madrasahs also offer additional advanced courses in Arabic literature, English and other foreign languages, as well as science and world history.
as far as critical thinking goes, I fully agree with you, unfortunately our Madrassah's are teaching specific types of Islamic courses and even installing hate against other sect of Islam.
THe critical thinking part definately needs tinkering, which can be done by regularising Madrassah's. I also agree with you that the foreign language taught in Madrassah's should also include more english courses. In this day and age it's becomin Islam vs the rest, and English is needed to get the message accross from people who know what they are talking about. Again that doesn't mean to say that the Maulana that is well versed in English is more knowlegable than the one whos is well versed in arabic/perian/urdu.
Again im arguing that that Madrassah's have the right to be called proper educational institutes and it's students the right to entitlement of a proper recognised degree. I can't stand when these poor kids go through all sorts and at the end they're labled "uneducated morons."
I know what the limitations and the downsides of Madrassah's are. but im not the one comparing, anyway let's not emabarras ourselves when comparing Pakistani uni's to Indian one or international ones when Pakistan Universities are abysmally ranked.

Hijab would be interpreted as overly modest for some parts of Pakistan, as the duputta is generally a sign of modesty. A lot of Pakistani women do not wear any head cover at all.

I think not, but then again Pakistan is such a diverse country. Some regions there's shuttlecock burqa's that are the norm some regions it's the chador, mostly its the hijab. Some places there's lightly placed dubatta and ofcpurse there is the simple shalwar kamiz. I still don't think Hijab interpreted as overtly Modest.

 

[Keysersoze]

Gentlemen please conduct this discussion without the personal rancor please.