Achilles heel of Pakistan Army (Gen. Sharif)

[MastanKhan]

The threat should not come from the military violating their own oath. Two wrong don't make a right, everyone should be held accountable but no on the expense of dragging Pakistan backwards again.

Sir,

There is no such thing as two wrongs---only the first one is wrong---the second is a corrective measure---.

 

[MastanKhan]

This is Pakistan:----

Mullahs are fighting

The illiterate are teaching religion

Pop music stars are preaching religion

Athletes are doing politics

Lawyers are beating up on the police

Models are doing smuggling

And smugglers are paying pilgrimage to the Holy sites

Military is running the country

The politicians are running their businesses

And the poor pubic is looking at each others face in hopelessness

 

[salarsikander]

The threat should not come from the military violating their own oath. Two wrong don't make a right, everyone should be held accountable but no on the expense of dragging Pakistan backwards again.This is refereeing to your threat of stick reference. You seriously believe Musharraf did not commit any corruption during his tenure? even for a second if I believe it, he was the head of the state, with supreme authority , any corruption under him was his responsibility. I said it before as well, these politicians are not saints, but they were voted by the people of Pakistan and only people of Pakistan have the right to remove them after their 5 years are completed. Just like you said, no corruption was proven against Musharraf, so far i have not read any article stating corruption against Nawaz but do I think he all of a sudden became a pious man and hasn't done any wrong doing? HELL NO!!!

Feudal system won't change over night. You need the right people for the job and it takes time. System needs time to mature and only then change can come, over night change only brings chaos and we can not afford that. Mind set needs to be changed and if you think by removing these politicians we will get individuals who have totally different mind set then you are mistaken. I don't support any political party, i support anyone who is doing anything for Pakistan and I really believe by letting the system mature we will only get better. Ask yourself or any other Pakistani, are things better now then they were under PPP?

Hi,

The threat of stick doesn't necessarily mean martial law as suggested in a popular belief, but should be taken in a context where a system can fall back to in the event of Redundancy .

Tell me Over here in Pakistan everyone starts to jump, when someone does a basic job which is part of normal governance.
In Canada do you see prime minister saying we have installed this many lampposts and we have paved this many roads hence he should be given a second term?

Is that what they are their for ? or its the job of another ministry ? Our standards of governance are so low.

Just leave all the institution free from family politics and influence and let them do their job. right now judiciary is on one path, govt on the other, total chaos, clash of institutions read the post #61.

Under his royal highness there are several ministries , in which we have his personal family member doing the job for which they are not qualified.

I am all up for Democracy, if the democracy protects my rights and not the rights of some goon criminal who can make amendment to laws to protect him from prosecution. If people in the government are sincere enough to put country's interest first and then theirs .

It seems its been a while since you visited PAkistan, please visit it and then you will know how personal pockets are being filled and corruption on open wide scale is being carried out

 

[Caprxl]

Sir,

There is no such thing as two wrongs---only the first one is wrong---the second is a corrective measure---.

Cause n effect
Action n Reaction

 

[Uzair Shafiq [Босс]]

The government fully supports the Army but of course There is always a traitor in the midst

 

[PakCan]

I never said current government is doing its job perfectly. All i am saying is that we need to let these institutions grow, and change will come if they are not tempered with.. He can fill the entire cabinet with his family if he feels, but if people of Pakistan are not happy with his tenure they wont' vote for him in the next elections. I agree with your point regarding standard of governance, but expecting these politicians to behave like western politicians is unfair. This is the first time a democratic government took over from another government in Pakistan, let this system run for a decade and change will come when individuals start to realize the power of their vote.

@MastanKhan , I can not agree with your point and please do give a example where the corrective measure you are referring too improved anything in Pakistan?

 

[TankMan]

Fauj bhai, not a bad analysis.

The politicians are all a problem, but can not be wiped out. They only need to be disarmed and their militant wings need to be clipped.

For one, the devil you know is better than the one you don't - wiping the major parties out would create a power vacuum, and the ones who come to fill it could easily be worse than what we had before.

And then, of course, comes the issue of actually wiping them out in the first place. Going directly for the leaders will make them political martyrs - their supporters and influence will grow, not decrease.

General Raheel knows all this, and he's playing it smart - going all-in and launching a coup to eliminate all these 'achilles' heels' will either backfire, or it will bring short-term stability but the country will continue to have problems in the long term, as has happened in the past.

At the end of the day, the best route is that of strengthening the state institutions, judiciary, and helping the political process mature. Electoral reforms will be essential, among other reforms - but it'll only work if the civilians do it. General Raheel or the Army should not be expected to do that too.

that TTP are good guys and we should negotiate with them.

That is an oversimplification. Nobody says they are ''good guys''. The actual narrative is that 1) they are Pakistanis, which is wrong since they lost their Pakistani nationality/identity the moment they decided to turn against the state and murder Pakistanis

and 2) that their stances are justified because they are victims of Pak Army operations/US drone strikes/etc, which again is wrong since nothing can justify what the TTP has done, and they asked for all they got.

What is true, though, is that certain methods and actions used against terrorists can sometimes backfire and help the terrorists by creating sympathizers. Just something to be careful about when fighting the TTP, and the Army already knows all this and has been implementing this properly in Zarb-e-Azb.

Another thing is that the terrorist narrative and ideology needs to be fought properly - again, the Army already knows this, and aside from reconstruction in Waziristan, they have also been working on de-radicalization and re-integration of tribals into the mainstream Pakistan. Very important.

But please refrain from saying things like:

fewer and fewer officers are supporting overtly Islamist symbols like beards

Beards are in no way 'overtly Islamist' (many non-Muslims have beards. Yes, they can be considered 'Islamic' If someone keeps a beard for religious purposes, but as long as they do no violate Army regulations, there is no reason to include 'beards' in the ''achilles' heel of Pakistan ''.

Also, refrain from using the word 'Islamist'. For one, it has a very wobbly definition, and another issue is that it gives Islam a negative connotation (as if there weren't enough of those around). Call it terrorist or extremist, conveys the same message without bringing one particular religion in a negative light - because let's face it, the majority of Pakistan is Muslim.

If you'll talk about Islam itself like it's some kind of a problem, it's pointless since not only will you be wrong about one thing, most Pakistanis will also then disregard everything else you say, no matter how true it is. (and no, I'm not questioning your own faith, and your disapproval of beards is none of my concern as long as you don't extrapolate it to the whole of Pakistan.)

Your excluding one suspect. The army itself?

The entire Army, as an institution, can not be considered a 'suspect'. I agree with most of the rest of your post but my main objection is simple: you said that the Army itself is a 'suspect', but then you used the examples of Musharraf and Zia to further your point.

That is wrong, because while you may say that people in the Army who are like Musharraf and Zia are weaknesses or suspects, you can not say that the entire Army is like that, or that the institution itself is like that (unless you can point me to some Manual or PMA course that teaches the Army to ''be like Musharraf and Zia''.)

What does it even mean, that 'the entire Army is suspect'? The implications of that view are very disturbing - we don't want to constantly be in a state of suspicion and mistrust with regards to our own Army. How will the country progress if the civilian authorities mistrust the Army because they 'fear another Zia'?

Do keep in mind the events and circumstances that led to Zia gaining power in the first place.

However we can't judge the army by just using Gen. Shareef.

And we can't judge it just by using Zia and Musharraf either.

As for no more military coups, that is good advice and General Raheel has that figured out. He'll let the political process mature. But the absence of military coups alone will not do that - the civilians will need to work towards that.

 

[salarsikander]

but expecting these politicians to behave like western politicians is unfair.

Hi,

And why is that ? and why do you have western style governance system then? If you wanna do the job do it right way.

do you know what Hamza sharif said to little toddlers?

Unless you're willing to change the standard of government, The only democracy that you will get is lahore incident.

These goons will only seek to strengthen themselves through corrupt judiciary as we have seen in past.

What we want is accountability. Why did the monkey court allow the model to leave the jail or let haqqani husain go?
What about the memogate scandal ? or swiss case ? or Lal masjid red devil?

 

[PakCan]

It's unfair because western world has been going through this process for over a century, where in Pakistan we had our first democratic transition.

I never said they should not be held accountable. When I mentioned in my post that institutions should be strengthen that included NAB and every other institution in Pakistan that was designed to keep everyone on there toes. Please go over my previous posts again, I never said give them freedom to do what they want, all I have been saying it that we need to strengthen our institutions. That includes our parliament that right now might be filled with crooks but it has to be made stronger along with other institutions.

 

[Viper0011.]

And why is that ? and why do you have western style governance system then? If you wanna do the job do it right way.

you have leaders with British wives, almost everyone else (including the generals), with assets inside the UK, US, France, etc. You are ALREADY Westernized. You are just in denial.

Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi are in some ways more modern than many Western countries too. So why only sing this "Westernization" song when we talk about democracy? Let the people run the country as the country was built FOR THE PEOPLE. Not for 550K military-men and a few generals who try to defend Pakistan on TV but don't list their assets in the West in their tax return, I can give you a list starting from Kiyani and Mushiy.....

Giving the people the right to VOTE isn't Western. It is actually a HUMAN RIGHT!!! Or show us a statement from Mr. Jinnah that said "I am pushing to create a separate country called Pakistan so that its military men can remain in power and run the country as they please".
If you can prove to us that the founders of your country made the country ONLY for the military to rule it; I will NEVER write one more sentence about Pakistan's democracy!!!! The country was created for People to live in it and grow it and have their own way of life. And the military was supposed to be a defensive pillar safeguarding the borders and help internally. Not GOVERN internally!!

Unless you're willing to change the standard of government, The only democracy that you will get is lahore incident.
These goons will only seek to strengthen themselves through corrupt judiciary as we have seen in past.

By reading your posts, you don't even want people to run the democracy, here you are being a hypocrite, changing your own stance as you please?? When you don't even want a system, what does it matter if the standards exist or change or not???

Change in standards of the governance comes with democracy. Its an evolutionary process. The US's current system wasn't there 60 years ago. It takes time, repetition and fixing what was wrong.

To you, apparently, you think there is a perfect system out there in the shape of the military. Which hasn't produced anything for the common man in Pakistan for over 50 years of ruling the country. Or IK??.....who hasn't produced jack shiit after getting an entire state to govern!!!

These idealistic and mental masturbation methods only corrupt the reality as you become close minded in your fantasy of a "perfect system", none of which exists. The real system is born out of trial and error, meaning, the system runs and produces results each time it is refined. But it was never allowed to be refined till now. So watch how the system improves going forward. Similarly, did you do things the same way when you were 4??? NO!!! You grew up, and learned and corrected many things in your or others helped you correct those, like go study more, don't do drugs or drink, go pray, go be nice to people, don't fight with others, etc, etc. So...similarly, a country with a second try on democracy (really the first one, as Zardari doesn't count but it was the base, although corrupted one), you expect a "perfect" system???? When you, yourself were different 5, 10, 15 and 20 years ago and evolved overtime? The system doesn't run you ONLY, it has 200 MILLION people in it, imagine how much involvement it needs.......so give the system time to develop, the democratic and think tank institutes to develop. Otherwise, you'll become a failed nation unfortunately and that would be sad as you guys are smart and have a high potential to grow. Its just the mental fascination with the military rule and hate for some (who are actually working), resulting in these crazy ideas!!!

What we want is accountability. Why did the monkey court allow the model to leave the jail or let haqqani husain go? What about the memogate scandal ? or swiss case ? or Lal masjid red devil?

What about accountability?? There have been huge scandals in the US, in India, in China too. The investigations take place, and people who did wrong, serve their time in jail. But, if the court says, the evidence isn't enough, the person goes free. It is UP TO the court. No human has the right to take a gun in their hand to serve justice.

In this process, people sometimes get away and sometimes get sentenced for wrong reasons. That's humans running the system. There is nothing perfect. But the chances of wrong happening in a running system are IMO less than 5%. So why should the 95% people suffer and get no justice, due to fears of 5% unjust decisions????

What is accountability to you? A corruption case hitting the media and the military polishing their tanks and marching into the PM or the President's house? If you think that's accountability, to the remainder of the world, that's unconstitutional coupe, suspension of a country's way of life and a robbery on people's rights. Such events would shut down investments, economic activity and everything else.

The REAL accountability is, after the corruption case or whatever was reported, you take the accused to the court (or multiple courts due to the hierarchy). The law enforcement investigates, if a fault or criminal activity is found....you jail the party committing that crime. If the court doesn't have proofs, you let the accused party go.

Were IK's sit-ins an "Accountability"? getting people killed, pushing people to clash with the police and the state, getting people killed who were barely making their daily wages, attacking a parliament???? That's in the entire civilized world, referred to as mutiny and treason, and as innocents got killed....majority of the world would punish it with a death penalty!!!!

So accountability in a democratic system is ALSO an evolution. Where was accountability in the Military's case??? Mushy got Bugti killed in cold blood.......he could've been sentenced for life for his crime (if he really committed those). So what happened? Was Mushy tried? HELL NO!!!! You call this accountability????
Now let's compare the current system. Rigging issue got cleared up by a mutually agreed panel. Everyone said, the decision would be acceptable and that's what happened.
Then, the sad incident of Child rape, the CM of Punjab (after his own MNA's name in the news) said that he's open to judicial committee investigating it. Which ALWAYS includes people assigned by other opponents parties, like it happened in the RIGGING issue. So the investigations will get people in jail who committed the crime. Similarly, people challenged Metro Bus and other projects in different courts, couldn't provide enough proofs of corruption, the judges said the Plaintiffs were wrong and the party being accused got to go free (the government). These are ALL examples of the accountability. In ANY of these examples, other people didn't get hurt or killed the economy didn't shut down, tanks didn't role out like its a war zone, billions weren't lost, markets weren't crashed.....people and the country continued their daily routine, made daily progress, didn't lose a dime and the judiciary did what it was supposed to do.

The world looked at the country as a Stable Country that can handle its matters on her own and there is no damage to their foreign investment or larger projects being done through foreign investments. The word "Stability" (social, political and economical) is what takes a country forward, produces peaceful people and helps grow a nation. Nothing else does.

 

[salarsikander]

you have leaders with British wives, almost everyone else (including the generals), with assets inside the UK, US, France, etc. You are ALREADY Westernized. You are just in denial.

Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi are in some ways more modern than many Western countries too. So why only sing this "Westernization" song when we talk about democracy? Let the people run the country as the country was built FOR THE PEOPLE. Not for 550K military-men and a few generals who try to defend Pakistan on TV but don't list their assets in the West in their tax return, I can give you a list starting from Kiyani and Mushiy.....

Giving the people the right to VOTE isn't Western. It is actually a HUMAN RIGHT!!! Or show us a statement from Mr. Jinnah that said "I am pushing to create a separate country called Pakistan so that its military men can remain in power and run the country as they please".
If you can prove to us that the founders of your country made the country ONLY for the military to rule it; I will NEVER write one more sentence about Pakistan's democracy!!!! The country was created for People to live in it and grow it and have their own way of life. And the military was supposed to be a defensive pillar safeguarding the borders and help internally. Not GOVERN internally!!



By reading your posts, you don't even want people to run the democracy, here you are being a hypocrite, changing your own stance as you please?? When you don't even want a system, what does it matter if the standards exist or change or not???

Change in standards of the governance comes with democracy. Its an evolutionary process. The US's current system wasn't there 60 years ago. It takes time, repetition and fixing what was wrong.

To you, apparently, you think there is a perfect system out there in the shape of the military. Which hasn't produced anything for the common man in Pakistan for over 50 years of ruling the country. Or IK??.....who hasn't produced jack shiit after getting an entire state to govern!!!

These idealistic and mental masturbation methods only corrupt the reality as you become close minded in your fantasy of a "perfect system", none of which exists. The real system is born out of trial and error, meaning, the system runs and produces results each time it is refined. But it was never allowed to be refined till now. So watch how the system improves going forward. Similarly, did you do things the same way when you were 4??? NO!!! You grew up, and learned and corrected many things in your or others helped you correct those, like go study more, don't do drugs or drink, go pray, go be nice to people, don't fight with others, etc, etc. So...similarly, a country with a second try on democracy (really the first one, as Zardari doesn't count but it was the base, although corrupted one), you expect a "perfect" system???? When you, yourself were different 5, 10, 15 and 20 years ago and evolved overtime? The system doesn't run you ONLY, it has 200 MILLION people in it, imagine how much involvement it needs.......so give the system time to develop, the democratic and think tank institutes to develop. Otherwise, you'll become a failed nation unfortunately and that would be sad as you guys are smart and have a high potential to grow. Its just the mental fascination with the military rule and hate for some (who are actually working), resulting in these crazy ideas!!!



What about accountability?? There have been huge scandals in the US, in India, in China too. The investigations take place, and people who did wrong, serve their time in jail. But, if the court says, the evidence isn't enough, the person goes free. It is UP TO the court. No human has the right to take a gun in their hand to serve justice.

In this process, people sometimes get away and sometimes get sentenced for wrong reasons. That's humans running the system. There is nothing perfect. But the chances of wrong happening in a running system are IMO less than 5%. So why should the 95% people suffer and get no justice, due to fears of 5% unjust decisions????

What is accountability to you? A corruption case hitting the media and the military polishing their tanks and marching into the PM or the President's house? If you think that's accountability, to the remainder of the world, that's unconstitutional coupe, suspension of a country's way of life and a robbery on people's rights. Such events would shut down investments, economic activity and everything else.

The REAL accountability is, after the corruption case or whatever was reported, you take the accused to the court (or multiple courts due to the hierarchy). The law enforcement investigates, if a fault or criminal activity is found....you jail the party committing that crime. If the court doesn't have proofs, you let the accused party go.

Were IK's sit-ins an "Accountability"? getting people killed, pushing people to clash with the police and the state, getting people killed who were barely making their daily wages, attacking a parliament???? That's in the entire civilized world, referred to as mutiny and treason, and as innocents got killed....majority of the world would punish it with a death penalty!!!!

So accountability in a democratic system is ALSO an evolution. Where was accountability in the Military's case??? Mushy got Bugti killed in cold blood.......he could've been sentenced for life for his crime (if he really committed those). So what happened? Was Mushy tried? HELL NO!!!! You call this accountability????
Now let's compare the current system. Rigging issue got cleared up by a mutually agreed panel. Everyone said, the decision would be acceptable and that's what happened.
Then, the sad incident of Child rape, the CM of Punjab (after his own MNA's name in the news) said that he's open to judicial committee investigating it. Which ALWAYS includes people assigned by other opponents parties, like it happened in the RIGGING issue. So the investigations will get people in jail who committed the crime. Similarly, people challenged Metro Bus and other projects in different courts, couldn't provide enough proofs of corruption, the judges said the Plaintiffs were wrong and the party being accused got to go free (the government). These are ALL examples of the accountability. In ANY of these examples, other people didn't get hurt or killed the economy didn't shut down, tanks didn't role out like its a war zone, billions weren't lost, markets weren't crashed.....people and the country continued their daily routine, made daily progress, didn't lose a dime and the judiciary did what it was supposed to do.

The world looked at the country as a Stable Country that can handle its matters on her own and there is no damage to their foreign investment or larger projects being done through foreign investments. The word "Stability" (social, political and economical) is what takes a country forward, produces peaceful people and helps grow a nation. Nothing else does.

post reported for using obscene language and getting personal @waz

Please ask the gentleman to quot em next time in a civil manner, I am not used to of such street language which he mentioned to an Indian capt popeye in another thread.

Thank you


Hi,

Your Post doesn't reflect that you have harvard graduates in your team.
using typical cheap obscene language and then getting all personal.

You make sound like it's North Korea or something.

I dont understand why do you insist on representing 200mn Pakistani when in fact you do not belong here nor you are one of us.( unless you have some sort of relationship with current ruling party)

To be able to understand the system and its dynamic please I would suggest live here for one day as normal citizen who struggles to live, and not as macho person who runs a re investment company that hires Harvard graduates .

What PAkistan wants or what its people want, let them decide I believe you hold no water when it comes to your opinion, As a Pakistani I have every right to to criticize my Govt, you on the other hand my friend are just an uninvited guest who is trying to shove down his views.

How conveniently you support the system of Judiciary which provides legal blanket cover to Goon such as current party, if the courts were any better then there would have been no need for establishment of Military courts, If the courts had opened swiss case, the memogate scandal, their credibility would have been established.

What 200mn people want is clear if An ignorant American like you could understand Urdu and listen to what they want. But obviously you cant understand Urdu you have hardly spent more than a week in Pakistan and yet you happen to all Generals and top level politicians who happen to tell what goes in corp commander meeting room
( doesn't sound a bit too childish?)

What happens in my country is my problem, I don't need an Ignorant mr know-it -all American telling me what should I do!

Got that !

And please do not talk About Ik with me I don't give two shits about any political sick party for that matter, i will only deal with current govt as they are in the power, I would like to Cm of punjab resign over Lahore incident and turning over culprits including himself, But then again we have Pakistani style democrazy as we know it.

What us happening inside my country after one phone call from kissinger is the result of US's blunder, lets talk about that shall we?

Since you are an American and I am Pakistani, Your knowledge of pakistani dynamics is just based around non-existent meeting that you have with top level generals
You seem to know a lot about Pakistan even without living in it for a week ! this is what I find most funny in you post.

You keep whining about Pakistani politics as if you have actually anything to do with it, even though you have clearly said that you are an American and will always look out for American interests, so I wonder what interest you have here that you are trying to protect.

I have evry right to choose what I like and criticize that I don't ( based on factual data ofc) You do not have any concern here. If you ask me, i would one call from Kissinger ( jew) was the reason why we got into this mess !

So stop talking to me as if you have any stakes here as a Pakistani when you clearly aren't !

 

[Viper0011.]

This is Pakistan:----
And the poor pubic is looking at each others face in hopelessness

Exactly to my point.....the PEOPLE were the reason to go through hell in this region to create a peaceful "Pakistan". But the "people" are STILL not in peace. India, for all its goods or bad, has it much better. Why?

Two word: System + Stability (Social, Political and Economical). In Pakistan, when the system isn't ALLOWED to be stable, all these things you mentioned, will happen. Because it's the Jungle's rule. The one with the gun can rule the ones without it.

When a system is allowed to develop, all roles and responsibilities are slowly assigned. Mullahs know not to teach terrorism or they'll go to jail for 30 years, people know Science and Technology is the future, not just the religious stuff. Lawyers know that they represent and educated society and unless there is a serious need, they can't conduct violence. The political leaders know that ALL matters on the country, are taken care of, in the Parliament and that sit ins and violence destroys the country. The system puts into everyone's heads their limits and slowly they are enforced and becomes a part of the normal daily life. Mistakes are made, media and other identify it and politicians fix those. If they don't (like Zardari), they and their kids won't ever come back as the PEOPLE take their "peaceful revenge" through the Vote by electing someone else who can deliver the next time. End of the story.

Before Metro bus.....how many bus stations in Pakistan saw ACTUAL LINES of people buying tickets and boarding buses and all???? What changed? A SYSTEM was introduced called the Metro Bus. It showed itself to people that to get a ticket, no matter who you are.....get in the line!!! System is everything.

Why is it the same Pakistanis or Indians or whoever, coming from some royal big shot background, who've never made their own coffee or been to an office and stood in a line ever before; come to the US or the UK and STAND in the line starting from right after leaving their airplane?

Because the system doesn't allow you to cut people off and go your own way. You'll be TOLD to go all the way in the back, and follow the line. You broke the line again, or messed with the system and played rude or a bully, well how about you spend a few nights in the Jail???? The system ENFORCES itself on you if its allowed to mature up!!!

Take another example: Pakistan's GDP is say 300 Billion for example. Now change the Mathematical Numbering System in Pakistan and replace 9 with 3 and 2 with the 0, so the new numbering system for Pakistan is "1,0,9,4,5,6,7,8,3,2". Now remember, this numbering system is universal, and so is the democracy and people's right to vote.

Since the numbering system was changed for Pakistan, the GDP became 922 Billion. How does it LINK to the world's standard system where it is 300 Billion? It DOESN'T!!!! Its wrong and makes no sense (like the military rules over a standard global voting system and human rights). Which is why, the educated countries don't like the military coupes as that's NOT the standard human way of managing a country.

The system is everything and it runs a country peacefully and successfully, and links it to the entire GLOBE!!! Disturb the system and you disturb links to the entire globe like we did by changing Maths in Pakistan and coming up with 922 Billion GDP when it was 300 Bilion!!! Its as simple as that. Don't change the Democratic Maths and let the Standard system allow your country to link up to the globe and grow and be successful. The issues will iron out automatically as the system matures.

Cause n effect
Action n Reaction

Third law of motion, every motion will have an equally forceful and opposite reaction. This is great when we are creating Jets, Computers, Spaceships, Gravity Defying objects or playing Basketball.

But do you think that's how it should be with humans? A leader for the wrong reasons taking to street and getting many killed....the opposite rection would be, the opponents bringing their people in the same or more number and doing the same (or trying) to do the same.....is it justified in human dealings to follow the "third law of motion"??? What should be followed is "the third law of humans", which should tell someone to not retaliate, watch out, not get others hurt and stay calm. You can discuss it and potentially fix the issue after the first wrong is done.

I recently say a friend of mine's speech on relationships (Marriage, and all), she is a Psychologist and said to about 10,000 people that she was going to bet and guess how many were divorced and the ones that were divorced, the primary reason was communication and reaction. Meaning one person said something bad, and their partner, instead of weighing out the response, JUST hit back with a similar forceful response. Two wrongs eventually result in a separation or a divorce. Can you change people? No, but can you respond back in a way that it doesn't become the third law of motion and you come out as a bigger better person (and potentially saving your relationship)??? Absolutely. So cause and equally forceful effects don't work among humans if you want to live peacefully. Someone has to have a cooler head.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Viper0011.

The more I read your posts---the more I am beginning to understand you. I think that you are looking at the fundamental goodness in a human being---that will come out in due time to keep the process moving thus resulting in democracy.

And I should assume that you are relating it with your experience like I do to mine and expect that the things will go in a certain manner.

Well here is a basic problem----in the U S---the church still is present in the lives of the people---people may not be religious or ay not go their denomination churches---but the by default the value that the church preaches----people hold onto them.

For example---honesty---truthfulness--no stealing---cheating---being honest---hard working---things taught at home and from the pulpit of a church in the form of a sermon as well----good basic fundamental vaues that shape and form the lives of the followers.

But on the other hand---the Islamic church---ie---the mosque---deviated from its goals and directions during the 80's and 90's. One of the messages that came out from certain mosques in the 90's was to ruin the U S economy----get credit cards---use them and default on them---new York became the center of credit fraud for many a years---and many prospered---.

The next step was to fund the terrorist campaigns---now there was preaching to steal money from the banks and other institutions----take hostages for ransom----. Now these are the things that the clerics are teaching the Pakistanis of a certain age---. So----here the basic fundamentals of character building are being destroyed---which we see come to fruitation in the current time and the last 14 years---.

Anyone and everyone---who has the opportunity is stealing left and right and without any recourse and checks and balances.

People correct themselves when there are the forces of honesty and truth and character stronger that those otherwise. These forces are currently missing in the Pakistanis---. So you American perception will not hold good for where Pakistan is headed---because in the words of the Japanese ambassador to Pakistan----Pakistan will never reach success because it is travelling I the opposite direction of success.

Pakistanis are the greatest 'oral society ' in the world----they will talk like if there is no tomorrow nd they are ready to do it---but when you talk to them again six months down the road---they are still at the same place----and the funny thing is every one is saying the same thing---but no one is doing anything to correct it.

So---basically---Pakistan will never get to where it needs to if left to operate rudderless and oar less. The nation needs guidance and direction---that it does not have---at least Nawaz Shareef does not have.

 

[nasira g]

A real eye opening scenario.
Especially about Imran God save the army and fail these infernos from harming.

 

[SQ8]

Pakistanis are the greatest 'oral society ' in the world----they will talk like if there is no tomorrow nd they are ready to do it---but when you talk to them again six months down the road---they are still at the same place----and the funny thing is every one is saying the same thing---but no one is doing anything to correct it.

So---basically---Pakistan will never get to where it needs to if left to operate rudderless and oar less. The nation needs guidance and direction---that it does not have---at least Nawaz Shareef does not have.

The first paragraph hits perfectly.. the second one is a different issue. The nation can be given all the guidance in the world but it prefers pomp and show to guidance. It is national character, hence Gen Raheel(good or bad) resonates with them.. Big marches with speeches and dancing resonates with them.. but any actual social change they dont give two hoots about because they dont really want to work for it.

This nation needs famine on a national level with millions upon millions dead or a national disaster that does the same before it will actually be jolted to change.. it is only under those terrible conditions of hardship that Pakistanis perform.