Achilles heel of Pakistan Army (Gen. Sharif)

[iPhone]

Thank you for this wonderful thread team pdf. @FaujHistorian @Viper0011. @MastanKhan you gentlemen are a wealth of information. Great discussion and superb insight Mr Viper. Thanks

 

[MastanKhan]

Thank you for this wonderful thread team pdf. @FaujHistorian @Viper0011. @MastanKhan you gentlemen are a wealth of information. Great discussion and superb insight Mr Viper. Thanks

Hi,

Posters like viper, gambit Solomon and so many others are a great asset to this board. Somebody who just pours their heart out to make us better----it is priceless.

 

[Kakaspai]

Forgot to mention the threat from the army.Military dictatorship

 

[Viper0011.]

@Viper0011.

The more I read your posts---the more I am beginning to understand you. I think that you are looking at the fundamental goodness in a human being---that will come out in due time to keep the process moving thus resulting in democracy.

And I should assume that you are relating it with your experience like I do to mine and expect that the things will go in a certain manner.

Well here is a basic problem----in the U S---the church still is present in the lives of the people---people may not be religious or ay not go their denomination churches---but the by default the value that the church preaches----people hold onto them.
For example---honesty---truthfulness--no stealing---cheating---being honest---hard working---things taught at home and from the pulpit of a church in the form of a sermon as well----good basic fundamental vaues that shape and form the lives of the followers.
But on the other hand---the Islamic church---ie---the mosque---deviated from its goals and directions during the 80's and 90's. One of the messages that came out from certain mosques in the 90's was to ruin the U S economy----get credit cards---use them and default on them---new York became the center of credit fraud for many a years---and many prospered---.
So---basically---Pakistan will never get to where it needs to if left to operate rudderless and oar less. The nation needs guidance and direction---that it does not have---at least Nawaz Shareef does not have.

Thank you MK. The more I read your posts, the more interests I gain about this topic

You are right to some degree. I believe in goodness in people. When someone is born, he or she isn't a Doctor, Engineer or a Serial Killer by birth. The environment and life turns that new born, over time, into that character. Now if that little child turns out to be a serial killer....there is one thing that can be said for sure, he wasn't born that way. So humans are born with goodness. It's the environment that changes it.

No tying it to the topic, everything you mentioned about Pakistan, refers to the environment I am talking about. The environment in Pakistan is such that it instigates fraud, gossip, murders, lying, extremism, intolerance, and even terrorism!! Now per your suggestion, add the Mosque factor to it, guess what you have? A perfectly normal-looking (to people living inside this environment), breeding ground for all things wrong as the "environment" supports it, and in your examples, the Mosque or the religious institutions support it too. The last stamp of approval humans need in that part of the world specially.

As you quoted the Japanese minister, why did he say that Pakistan is traveling in the opposite direction of the time?

I recently responded to an Indian member on here about growth of Indian educated masses inside the US. What's taking the Sundar's, Patel's, Indra's and Bhushan's of the world to the top? Primarily, it is the environment. If they were in India, they would STILL be sharp and smart people. But would Sundar ever become the CEO of Google? Would Indra ever dream of being in Pepsi Co's corp. headquarter, let alone being the CEO???? No!!!

So what is this environment that's brought in immigrants from India, and has turned them on the top, way above its own 99% of citizens.......it's that environment AKA, the SYSTEM.

It's the American system that supports tolerance of others, where its ok to be an Indian and different looking and still rise to the top and by pass thousands of local American workers in that process. Microsoft has over 125,000 employees.....but there is ONE Indian guy as the CEO. Same for Sundar, same for Bhushan, same for Indira (just naming a few people on here), ONLY because the system supports and allows these behaviors.

Now how did the Americans or the Britts or others get that way? Including the Malaysians and Indonesians (Muslims)??? Its because they always saw people negotiating their way out of issues. People discussing situations which would benefit each other.
A system that was working even little or poor, but had the basis set with core values of tolerating others and working with others even if you dislike them, and once you spend a lot of time with someone, 90% of those tense relationships ease up as you learn about each other and build tolerance. India had a system but it was no where close to where it is today just 20 years ago. But they didn't throw away the system. They used it to produce this generation that took India to the top.
What do Indians bring that you can't find elsewhere? Its the combination of hard work, team work and the ability to negotiate. I've worked with many people from Russia and some other places.......negotiations are not their trait. Indians will remain calm and will negotiate with you and will work as a team.

So in Pakistan, you need a system to foster these basic core elements. Children learn from their parents and surroundings, culture and all. So when children don't hear or see violence, coupes, bombs killing innocents, and all, someone enforcing coupes, or murdering the ones he doesn't like....they'll keep a little bit of that human goodness that they were born with, as the environment hasn't thrusted intolerance and extremism ideology in their head. Due to lack of seeing extremism, or violent attitude, these children will grow up learning to negotiate and talk, and will work together and accept others for who they are, whether Shiite, Sunni, Hindu or Christian.

Once you've set that thing in people's minds that ALL humans are equal and that every or majority of the issues can be worked out through negotiating. It doesn't mean crimes don't take place, and people just become peace loving honest human beings, but it does mean that a majority of educated people have learned the team work, acceptance and tolerance. Haven't seen their system show it otherwise (a government comes and one goes, people vote and vote and vote, but no tanks, no grabbing judges from hair, no hanging an elected PM and no throwing a PM out of the country either, no tanks and no punches on the national media). So when the element of extremism is removed from a society, the educated majority takes over peacefully and then its a matter of "if" not "when". As soon as the opportunity strikes, the system will use it and will deliver for everyone's benefit. CPEC is an example of that. Metro bus is an example of that. New airports, dams are examples of that. Doesn't mean everything is cleansed with holly water, but it does mean that the system has put the nation in a better direction than before and these things will better average citizen's lives. That's what matters.

Hi,

Posters like viper, gambit Solomon and so many others are a great asset to this board. Somebody who just pours their heart out to make us better----it is priceless.

If you hadn't countered all of us with so many intelligent questions, how would I write back with credible answers, after trying to understand where you are coming from......so in fact, its not just a few individuals. By having these intelligent discussions, you are stimulating my brain waves to go find an answer that fits your questions and even I learn many things during that discussion cycle.

So everyone helps everyone in getting better with different ideas, theories, suggestions and questions. This is a healthy way to show the readers we can all talk, still have our differences but yet, still talk in the next topic again, without any hard feelings. And the discussion should continue.

 

[Viper0011.]

Yeap. I understand.
Your approach is Burke-ian (and to some degree post civil war, British. While many in Pakistani educated elite believe in Payne-ian (and to some degree French revolution like) approach.

I agree that Pakistanis society (majority in Punjab and Sindh and KP) support Edmond Burke's views

But sadly our media and universities and Sindh urban is dominated by Thomas Payne like people and pro-French revolution.
Immi Khan and his dharna politics is clearly a French revolution like approach and thus very very popular in many among urban Pakistan.you want Pakistan to take Edmun

These are philosophical debates on the style or ideology to pick for revolution. I've analyzed many systems in the world. The beauty of years of research and analysis is that the conclusion is that a SYSTEM is needed and it takes a nation forward. Specially a nation in 70 year old and constantly growing mess like Pakistan is in.

So Pakistan can't afford to have a revolution that would weaken its institutions and the entire country. The French and other revolutions weren't happening with Germany strong enough to take over the French or the English or the Eastern Europeans. So those revolutions went forward and eventually brought about change.

Here, you are looking at a country who is located at SUCH a critical geographical intersection that your enemies since 1995's have been projecting a date of when Pakistan will be divided and broken.

Knowing this, can you afford a civil war or disobedience or a revolution to change things? NO!! the second that happens, and knowing the divide inside Pakistan's political system (take MQM for example), your enemy will attack you and the others "frenemies" including Afghan's and Iranians, will support their version of violence into your society. Resulting in a collapse of the country.

So what are you choices? There is a lot of things wrong with Pakistan's current culture and politics. There is nothing really wrong with its democratic system, outside of corruption and that's minimized a LOT. The fact that no one has brought up a significant case of corruption and proved it, supports that. Do you really think if there was MEGA corruption going on by the current government, not even ONE good person will come forward? When people in the villages now call media to report events?? It is impossible for there not to be 1 good person out of a population of 2 million people working on these large programs!!

So we go back to the same notion. ALLOW a system to work, allow the media and the judiciary (a part of the system) to help the system throw out corrupt people, the system has already proven that once (by kicking out Zardari for good). So all this is in reach. There is no revolution needed when the country's making progress. If you see the French revolution, there wasn't anything going on to help the public. It all started with Charles De Gaulle. He created the modern France. Similarly, the US's stand as a strong economy goes to Albert Gore (Al Gore Sr.), he introduced the idea to create Interstate highway system of the US, and that system created infrastructure that resulted in phenomenal growth of the US economy and rose it to number 1 for many decades. Again, you need a SYSTEM to allow you to do those things. The system now exists in Pakistan. It needs to mature up slowly and then everything will go on autopilot and the system will manage itself.
Intensity, intolerance and impatience (traits of Pakistanis) are an enemy to the system and to the country. They need to go away. A five year patience period is a must have for a country to grow and be one of the top 15 economies. A system can ensure it, a military rule can not !!!
Pakistani's need to decide, whether they want to be at the same level as Australia is in the next 20-25 years, or always be the crappy 30-40th lower end economy!

 

[VCheng]

Purpose of this essay is to identify grave threats to Pakistan army and Gen. Sharif, and hopefully start a debate as to how to address and neutralize these. Please note! These threats are a mix of religious, political, social, and geographical. And NO! we cannot solve these just be threatening them or nuking them. They all need distinct solutions tailored very specifically and delivered in very carefully optimized dosage. So here is the summary list:
1. Threats from Pakistani politicians
--- a. Altaf Hussain (MQM)
--- b. Asif Zardari (PPP)
--- c. Imran Khan (PTI)
--- d. Nawaz Sharif (PMLN)
2. Threats from bad economy
3. Threats from religious extremism
4. External threats.

What a great thread and discussion, but one that misses the real dangers to Pakistan itself. While the system of governing the country is important, and is being discussed fervently, one can see that it works - after a fashion. Yes, the politicians are corrupt, and the Army usurps power illegally, but this mishmash has kept the nation's head above water, despite itself and the many dangers surrounding the country. So, imperfect as it is, this is not the problem.

Whatever the system in place, civilian, military, or a civilian facade over the military, they all have to deal with the population explosion and all its attendant complications. Pakistan is set to expand to 300 million people in a few decades. The cities have a doubling time of less than 8-9 years. Water, power, land, and facilities are already stretch to the limit. What's more, there are no plans to deal with these issues in place.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the real Achilles' heel of Pakistan, in my view.