Accept Vande Mataram or go to Pakistan

[brahmastra]

After reading the above I cannot thank the Great M A Jinnah enough to have given us Pakistan. Otherwise, it would have been VANDE MATRAM for all of us!!

We are also thankful to Great M A Jinnah that they gave you Pakistan.

 

[trickey]

My Indian Friends .





You Cannot Force anything in Secular Country ..

Right. And that includes binding fatwas.

 

[Awesome]

If you bow at the feet of your mother with respect, it is not 'shirk' but only respect

Actually it is and especially when we know the song is talking about Durga maan when it says Maan. Durga being a Hindu Goddess cannot be imposed under secular law.

Even the Indian National Anthem, which may not be Hindu, but is either religious or is a poem written by Rabindranath Tagore praising George the IV at the time of his coronation.

Which makes the national song that Indians sing to be a song for their former colonial master:

O! Dispenser of India's destiny, thou art the ruler of the minds of all people[9]
Thy name rouses the hearts of Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat, the Maratha country, Dravida, Utkala and Bengal;
It echoes in the hills of the Vindhyas and Himalayas,
it mingles in the rhapsodies of the pure waters of Yamuna and Ganga
They chant only thy name.
They seek only thy auspicious blessings.
They sing only the glory of thy victory.
The salvation of all people waits in thy hands,
O! Dispenser of India's destiny, thou art the ruler of the minds of all people
Victory to thee, Victory to thee, Victory to thee,
Victory, Victory, Victory, Victory to thee!

Not to mention they need to remove Sindh from the anthem

I'm glad that Shiv Sena looks at us as a land of religious freedom .

 

[trickey]

Are there two types of Hindus? Those who think that Hinduism is not a religion and the other who thinks it is..? Or those who say Hinduism is not a religion wrong.. Help me out here.

From what i understand, it seems there are Hindus who are ready to put their religion at a lower level...to pretend to be secular.

Why? Are you drowning in your own bile?

 

[third eye]

Actually it is and especially when we know the song is talking about Durga maan when it says Maan. Durga being a Hindu Goddess cannot be imposed under secular law.

Even the Indian National Anthem, which may not be Hindu, but is either religious or is a poem written by Rabindranath Tagore praising George the IV at the time of his coronation.

Which makes the national song that Indians sing to be a song for their former colonial master:

O! Dispenser of India's destiny, thou art the ruler of the minds of all people[9]
Thy name rouses the hearts of Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat, the Maratha country, Dravida, Utkala and Bengal;
It echoes in the hills of the Vindhyas and Himalayas,
it mingles in the rhapsodies of the pure waters of Yamuna and Ganga
They chant only thy name.
They seek only thy auspicious blessings.
They sing only the glory of thy victory.
The salvation of all people waits in thy hands,
O! Dispenser of India's destiny, thou art the ruler of the minds of all people
Victory to thee, Victory to thee, Victory to thee,
Victory, Victory, Victory, Victory to thee!

Not to mention they need to remove Sindh from the anthem

I'm glad that Shiv Sena looks at us as a land of religious freedom .

I find your criticism of the Indian National Anthem in bad taste.

Not expected from someone of your stature.

Whatever be your or anyone else's concerns, it is an anthem all Indians sing proudly and stand erect to. No one has the right to find fault.

Its ours & we are proud of it. Can we not discuss the Indian national anthem any further ?

This thread relates to the national song & not the national anthem.

 

[Awesome]

Right. And that includes binding fatwas.

Fatwas will only be followed by people that do follow those Mullahs. They are free to not follow them.

Fatwas are edicts. Formally pronounced as the right thing to do. Personally I think they are a waste of time and people should make up their own minds. But in this case, the majority of the Muslims should come to the same conclusion.

The concept of Shirk (association to God) is so fundamental to Islam, it might just be the basis of it all.

 

[Nemesis]

Regardless of the history of the song, the version of the Vande mataram that is adopted as our national song is not anti Islamic. So i see no reasons why fatwas should be issued against it.

However, singing songs and anthems are no yardsticks for patriotism. If people don't want to sing, that is their own business. It is not something that can or should be enforced.

 

[Awesome]

I find your criticism of the Indian National Anthem in bad taste.

Not expected from someone of your stature.

I hold claim to no great stature.

But surely you've heard more famous people (mostly Indians) other than me, make these claims before? I didn't come up with it, other... better people did it.

Whatever be your or anyone else's concerns, it is an anthem all Indians sing proudly and stand erect to. No one has the right to find fault.

Its ours & we are proud of it. Can we not discuss the Indian national anthem any further ? This thread relates to the national song & not the national anthem.

If you're that sensitive to it, sure... why not, I don't care. I won't forbid it, but I personally don't have any interest. Other than pointing out that there are many things that were adopted as a mistake and if the anthem has been called to be "fixed" by Indians in the past... Then why not the removal of an enforced religious song?

Especially when your guys ready to banish people to Pakistan for not singing it.

 

[Awesome]

Regardless of the history of the song, the version of the Vande mataram that is adopted as our national song is not anti Islamic. So i see no reasons why fatwas should be issued against it.

However, singing songs and anthems are no yardsticks for patriotism. If people don't want to sing, that is their own business. It is not something that can or should be enforced.

Remove the Bowing...? How about Salaam Maan, or Jaya Maan!

Problem is in bowing.

 

[third eye]

I hold claim to no great stature.

But surely you've heard more famous people (mostly Indians) other than me, make these claims before? I didn't come up with it, other... better people did it.



If you're that sensitive to it, sure... why not, I don't care. I won't forbid it, but I personally don't have any interest. Other than pointing out that there are many things that were adopted as a mistake and if the anthem has been called to be "fixed" by Indians in the past... Then why not the removal of an enforced religious song?

Especially when your guys ready to banish people to Pakistan for not singing it.

The stature I was referring to was that of an Administrator, nothing else.

The ' enforced' religious song shall not be sung by right thinking individuals just as the attempt to enforce by means of a fatwa shall be ignored by the same class of people.

 

[Balance]

I see that most of the Pakistani fellows here have a common problem -

They cannot see Indians and Hindus as different things. Same is applicable to Mr Zaid Hamid. He offen goes thumping his chest and yelling "we (Muslims) rules them (Hindus) for more than 1000 years and we will do it again, as history repeats itself." But unfortunately, the scholar forgets that India does not need to look towards Pakistan for Muslim rulers. We have more than enough of them. I bet Hon. A P J Abdul Kalam is most popular president of India till date! So, worthy Muslims still rule India, and guess what, we are proud of it!

The same confusion is the reason many Pakistanis (including Musharraf) try to support and convey their sympathies to Indian Muslims. As there are some 165 million or so Muslims in India, problems are gonna be there. Same goes for Hindus. But Pakistan is only interested in Muslims. People conveniently forget that not a single Muslim said "it's better to be in Pakistan, where we are not compelled to sing any such songs". Not even after such irresponsible statements from Uddhav Thackerey.

Now, being made it clear where the confusion lies, let's try to clear it up. India is a country where people of different religions live and contribute. Being second most populated country, the quarrels and arguments and fights are bound to happen.
But the important thing is, every person is an Indian before being Hindu or Muslim. So, Indians does not mean Hindus.

And as I have observed on this forum, many members take Indians as Hindus and believe that insulting Hindus is insulting India. But obviously, that miserably fails. When a member tries to insult Hinduism, I have rarely seen any Hindu member bashing Islam for a revenge (I know there are exceptions). The reason is, Hindu members understand and believe that they represent India (and not Hinduism) on this forum. As Muslims are inseparable part of India, they take care not to hurt Muslim sentiments. This maturity comes from living in a secular state. Many Pakistani members take advantage of the limit Hindu members put on themselves and try to insult Hinduism more and more. Poor souls.

Lastly, I take this opportunity to repeat that if somebody has genuine doubts / problems / objections with Hinduism, I am interested in starting a separate thread where me and any person with knowledge will try to give a healthy reply.

Regards, Balance.

 

[King Julien]

Actually it is and especially when we know the song is talking about Durga maan when it says Maan. Durga being a Hindu Goddess cannot be imposed under secular law.

what??? where did you read it? maa bole toh mother mere dost!!

Even the Indian National Anthem, which may not be Hindu, but is either religious or is a poem written by Rabindranath Tagore praising George the IV at the time of his coronation.

Which makes the national song that Indians sing to be a song for their former colonial master:

O! Dispenser of India's destiny, thou art the ruler of the minds of all people[9]
Thy name rouses the hearts of Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat, the Maratha country, Dravida, Utkala and Bengal;
It echoes in the hills of the Vindhyas and Himalayas,
it mingles in the rhapsodies of the pure waters of Yamuna and Ganga
They chant only thy name.
They seek only thy auspicious blessings.
They sing only the glory of thy victory.
The salvation of all people waits in thy hands,
O! Dispenser of India's destiny, thou art the ruler of the minds of all people
Victory to thee, Victory to thee, Victory to thee,
Victory, Victory, Victory, Victory to thee!

we don't refer it to Mr.George anymore!!

Not to mention they need to remove Sindh from the anthem

No, not necessary!

I'm glad that Shiv Sena looks at us as a land of religious freedom .

huh!! you definately don't wanna know Shiv Sena's definition of Pakistan

 

[Awesome]

I see that most of the Pakistani fellows here have a common problem -

They cannot see Indians and Hindus as different things. Same is applicable to Mr Zaid Hamid. He offen goes thumping his chest and yelling "we (Muslims) rules them (Hindus) for more than 1000 years and we will do it again, as history repeats itself." But unfortunately, the scholar forgets that India does not need to look towards Pakistan for Muslim rulers. We have more than enough of them. I bet Hon. A P J Abdul Kalam is most popular president of India till date! So, worthy Muslims still rule India, and guess what, we are proud of it!

The same confusion is the reason many Pakistanis (including Musharraf) try to support and convey their sympathies to Indian Muslims. As there are some 165 million or so Muslims in India, problems are gonna be there. Same goes for Hindus. But Pakistan is only interested in Muslims. People conveniently forget that not a single Muslim said "it's better to be in Pakistan, where we are not compelled to sing any such songs". Not even after such irresponsible statements from Uddhav Thackerey.

Now, being made it clear where the confusion lies, let's try to clear it up. India is a country where people of different religions live and contribute. Being second most populated country, the quarrels and arguments and fights are bound to happen.
But the important thing is, every person is an Indian before being Hindu or Muslim. So, Indians does not mean Hindus.

And as I have observed on this forum, many members take Indians as Hindus and believe that insulting Hindus is insulting India. But obviously, that miserably fails. When a member tries to insult Hinduism, I have rarely seen any Hindu member bashing Islam for a revenge (I know there are exceptions). The reason is, Hindu members understand and believe that they represent India (and not Hinduism) on this forum. As Muslims are inseparable part of India, they take care not to hurt Muslim sentiments. This maturity comes from living in a secular state. Many Pakistani members take advantage of the limit Hindu members put on themselves and try to insult Hinduism more and more. Poor souls.

Lastly, I take this opportunity to repeat that if somebody has genuine doubts / problems / objections with Hinduism, I am interested in starting a separate thread where me and any person with knowledge will try to give a healthy reply.

Regards, Balance.

Quit ranting, we're having a discussion. If you're too uneasy with it... don't participate. Remember the issue took off from India and it involved Pakistanis when they threatened to banish the Muslims to Pakistan.

 

[Awesome]

what??? where did you read it? maa bole toh mother mere dost!!

Dost, even bowing to mother is not allowed...

But the original song goes on to mention:

Tvam Hi Durgaa
Dasha Prahara Nadhaarini
Kamala Kamaladala Viharini
Vani Vidhyadayini Namaami Tvam
Namaami Kamalaam,
Amalaam, Atulaam
Sujalaam Suphalaam Mataram
Vande Mataram

we don't refer it to Mr.George anymore!!

Sure but thats who its written for... Otherwise tell me, what is Jana Gana Mana talking about?

No, not necessary!

Up to you, personally I would want to fix the errors.

huh!! you definately don't wanna know Shiv Sena's definition of Pakistan

Shiv Sena cannot define Pakistan

 

[Halaku Khan]

Remove the Bowing...? How about Salaam Maan, or Jaya Maan!

Problem is in bowing.

Depends on how you translate Vande. Look at Arif Mohammed Khan's translation, there is no problem.

That said, I don't believe people should be forced to say or not say anything.