Accept Vande Mataram or go to Pakistan

[RescueRanger]

Its their country, their rules. Just like if you live in England i believe they still sing "Rule Britannia" and "God Save the Queen" do they not? Even though the only thing Britain is ruling now a days is mostly football.

BTW if any Indian minister is reading. Please dont send them here, we have enough trouble as it is.

 

[MilesTogo]

I think it is a slippery slope. If Indian Muslims keep issuing fatwas like these, pretty soon there will be another Pakistan. Although, in some ways it will be good for the sub-continent.

 

[Peshwa]

I appologize for that if Indians take it as a religiouse song and it hurts their sentiments then i appologize for that.

But my point is that there are many national songs and these are just songs you can not compare them with any religiouse verse or song or whatever you call it.

I havent called your anthem as silly which in my view is the real national song of any country and which is more respected the worldover

In this case i feel its clearly the case that its is related to hindu belief about hindu godess thats why you took it that way.

Jana....this is where your thinking is completely flawed.....You're apologizing for something that you havent completely even understood

This has nothing to do with Religion....this is our "national song"....a song that is used to inspire the youth, our army men......it reminds us of the pride that we feel about being Indians.....its the song that brings out the nationalism in us.....
Why do you insist on painting everything with the religion brush......We are not offended because we cant "impose" our religion on other minorities in India as you're suggesting...thats childish and outright insane......we are hurt because this hurts us as Indians ......nothing else....

Even after explaining the meaning and reference of Durga and Laxmi....yet you keep up with your argument about,
"In this case i feel its clearly the case that its is related to hindu belief about hindu godess thats why you took it that way"
You really have a hard time accepting that India is secular and that a majority of educated Indians are liberal minded and think of themselves as Indians first.....Hindu, muslim, sikh etc....later.....

Now you know the answer....why dont you just quit while you're ahead!!!

 

[Balance]

Why can't you all see the most beautiful side of the issue?

1. Let's begin with Uddhav Thakerey. He is the acting leader of Shiv-Sena. When that party runs out of issues to raise, they have to go for such statements to keep themselves in the news. Now, when people first heard them, they believed Shiv-Sena and gave them a chance in the govt of Maharashtra. Now, when the people understand that Shiv-Sena has nothing but hatred to spread, voters make them fail miserably. So, Uddhav Thakerey is no more an important person. And this was done by Hindus, as the vote bank for Shiv-Sena was Hindu voters.

2. Whenever this issue arises, Muslims oppose. Now, can't you see that Muslims are not afraid to oppose GoI even on a small point such as a song. Not only that, as we can see in a video posted earlier in this thread, Muslims are studying Hindu literature. Then Hindus are learning Islam (to find out what's wrong with the song and why Muslims can't sing it). Many Hindus may have read the full song for the first time in their life when they tried to find the objection.

3. When anyone questions secularity of India, I can proudly show this example as a piece of secularism. You see, secularism does not mean not having any differences in opinion or not having religious sentiments. Secularity has nothing to do with the problems arise in a country, but it has to do with how country solves these problems. And I am proud on what we have done till date, and may God help us to solve the issue just by discussions.

More to come, later.

Regards, Balance.

 

[navtrek]

real shame! thats ridiculous 4 a state who claims to be secular!

he he not true we are secular. But there are exceptions and people are free to express their opinion but the ground reality is not the same.

 

[Kaali]

People have the right to raise their voices in India if it hurts there religious sentiments. Muslims did the same.

Udhav had objections with it he raised his voice.

The concept of secularism becomes flawed when the government makes it mandatory to sing the song even though it is offensive on religious grounds. Since the government has not passed any such law it is just a claim over the secularism within India.


Rest is the fodder for the people of Pakistan to get one more reason for the creation of Troubled State of Pakistan in the hard times and to find one more good reason why Pakistan was created. Any ways the Pakistanis are more interested in being "not Indian" rather than being a Pakistani. Truth is always bitter.... but this is what I have learnt across the globe.

 

[dvk1982]

It is made compulsory to sing in schools of some states of India.

i dont know what is the status now but in the past it was there. I think on Sept 7th its still the same.

so whats the problem ?
It is considered as an equivalent to Jana gana -national anthem...
if ur stubborn sense doesn't get it .. leave it don't argue what we need to do even for our own national songs.... Vande Matram was the most popular song in India during our struggle. Obviously it symbolizes Free India.

If u dont accept, we don't worry but stop this nonsense...

tomorrow, if allowed, u guys will also suggest which countries sud follow what songs... typical symptom of having an illusion of being eligible to pass on self-beliefs on other nations....

 

[third eye]

Julien the word "bowing" and "Salute" are two different things.

keeping in mind the history of this poem and the meaning it has, those who are objecting to it are justified whereas there also many Muslims who have no objection in singing it as they do not practice their own religion usually so for them its ok while those who take their religion more serioulsy, its a matter of concern for them.


And yes i also say the same why my loyalities should be judged by my action to recite something.

When Muslims do not have any objection over Indian Anthem then indeed there is something disturbing in this song otherwise they would have accepted it warmly as they did accept their national anthem.

Jana,

There is absolutely no problem anywhere. Its just a case of doing something to get / stay in the limelight. The song was adopted by the Constituent Assembly with due deletions. The Assembly had muslims including Maulana Azad who accepted it.

Now, after decades, a storm is trying to be created in a tea cup. We will hear nothing of this till the next elections when this will become an issue for hardliners on both sides to raise slogans. Thats how Indian Politics is.

Notice, after the 1st day, it has hardly been reported anywhere in the national news.

Luckily, the Indian electorate has matured to a point where such issues do not come in the way when they cast their ballot.

Lastly, as mentioned in post #61. Its India, why should anyone else be concerned ? We are talking among Indians.

 

[Hari]

I cant understand why this fatwa [against Vandemataram] is being issued regularly. Same Fatwa was issued in 2006 also. If certain Indian Muslims dont want to Sing Vande Mataram, its ok, Indian Constitution does not say every person should sing this song. I feel they must not say it again and again since it hurts the feelings of majority of people in India.

 

[ambidex]

Are there two types of Hindus? Those who think that Hinduism is not a religion and the other who thinks it is..? Or those who say Hinduism is not a religion wrong.. Help me out here.

From what i understand, it seems there are Hindus who are ready to put their religion at a lower level...to pretend to be secular.

Wow what an interpretation i am impressed. I was not expecting
this from person like your caliber (with invincible debate record) to be involved in this discussion.

Would you be able to interpret same for the Muslims to generalize them on same merit?

Let me help you;
Question 1: Are Muslims secular?

Question 2: Do Pakistanis ever respect freedom fighters and their associated emotions (Slogans/ patriotic songs etc.) leading us to freedom of India and Pakistan from British empire?

Question 3: What was important for a restless Muslim before independence, formation of Pakistan or freedom of India.

The answer will lead to understand why Indians love modified /constitutional version of vande mataram.

If answer of question 3 is Pakistan first; then i would be wastage of time to explain why question number 2's answer that we do respect our freedom fighter more then any thing; yield no value. Question no 1 will help us to know why to be a secular one has to value the fact living together is not an easy practice thus human civilizations demand compromise to religious bigotry. which is of no value when same Muslim face towards 'Mecca' by making specific 'postures', kisses the 'holy 'Infused room' covered with holy back cloth and heavenly 'stone' and love holy 'book' Koran more then life are symbolic to idol worship. Hindus are not an exception by having same kind of gestures and idol of their own kind but believing in almighty pramatama having no shape blah blah blah etc.
Regards

 

[Hari]

Jamiat-Ulema-e-Hind made 25 resolutions but Indian media give importance to this resolution only , for obvious reasons

 

[XYON]

People have the right to raise their voices in India if it hurts there religious sentiments. Muslims did the same.

Udhav had objections with it he raised his voice.

The concept of secularism becomes flawed when the government makes it mandatory to sing the song even though it is offensive on religious grounds. Since the government has not passed any such law it is just a claim over the secularism within India.


Rest is the fodder for the people of Pakistan to get one more reason for the creation of Troubled State of Pakistan in the hard times and to find one more good reason why Pakistan was created. Any ways the Pakistanis are more interested in being "not Indian" rather than being a Pakistani. Truth is always bitter.... but this is what I have learnt across the globe.

After reading the above I cannot thank the Great M A Jinnah enough to have given us Pakistan. Otherwise, it would have been VANDE MATRAM for all of us!!

 

[Hari]

There are several muslim groups in India say Vande Mataram is not Un-Islamic

Bhopal: It is not un-Islamic to sing "Vande mataram", two prominent Muslim groups in Madhya Pradesh said Thursday, two days after the clerics' body Jamiat Ulema-i-Hind approved an earlier fatwa against the national song.
Claiming to have translated the song into Urdu, the All India Muslim Tehwar Committee (AIMTC) and the National Secularism Front of India (NSFI) say it is simply a prayer to keep the nation safe.


"It is not against Islam or un-Islamic. This is the reason why several Muslim freedom fighters chose to lay down their lives singing 'Vande mataram'," claimed AIMTC chairman Osaf Shahmeeri Khurram.


Khurram said "Vande mataram" is not a prayer to a mother goddess. "It is a prayer to the almighty to keep the nation safe and thus there should be no problem in singing or reciting it," he told IANS.


"Even Jamiat Ulema-i-Hind chief Mehmood Madani's grandfather Maulana Hussain Ahmed Madani and his father Asad Madani who was also a Congress MP had sung 'Vande mataram' on various occasions," he claimed.


"Had 'Vande mataram' been un-Islamic then Maulana Hussain Ahmed Madani, Maulana Hasrat Mohani, Maulana Obeidullah Sindhi or martyr Ashfaqullah would not have laid down their lives singing 'Vande mataram'."


Khurram, who claims that his organisation has 350,000 members in the country and has branches in 610 districts, asserted that the Jamiat Ulema-i-Hind and Darul-ul-Uloom in Deoband - which had issued the original fatwa - were ignorant of the facts.


NSFI president Irshad Ali Khan Afridi also said "Vande mataram" was not un-islamic. "The controversies arise only because people who issue such diktats have failed to understand it. They are, it seems, not aware of the facts," Afridi said.


"Why did no cleric oppose music director A.R. Rahman when he sang the song which not only became quite popular but also took him to new heights of his career?" he asked

'Vande mataram' not un-Islamic, say two Muslim groups :: Samay Live

HYDERABAD: In a volte face that will help reduce communal tension, the All India Sunni Ulema Board on Wednesday issued a fatwa saying that Muslims
can sing Vande Mataram but only its first two stanzas.

Earlier in June last, the Board had issued a fatwa by which Muslims were asked not to sing Vande Mataram .

Acting suo motu on the issue, four muftis of the Sunni Ulema Board's Dar-ul-Ifta on Wednesday issued the diktat asking Muslims to sing the first two stanzas of the national song.

"Singing the entire Vande Mataram is a Shirk (unIslamic) because some of the stanzas make you believe in 'Ghairullah' (other than Allah). But the first two stanzas are just praise and respect for the land which will make you bow towards it with respect," the fatwa said.

"If you bow at the feet of your mother with respect, it is not 'shirk' but only respect," said Board president Moulana Mufti Syed Shah Badruddin Qadri Aljeelani and other muftis Naseem Ahmed Ashrafi, Hasnuddin and Sajid Hussain.

The muftis asked politicians to prefer practices which bring people of all religions closer. But insisting on something that hurts the sentiments of one religion is not proper.

"The national song should unite people and should not separate them," Aljeelani told TOI. The All India Sunni Ulema Board claims itself to be a national body.

This body formed 10 years back follows the teachings of Jamia Nizamia, the city-based religious university and they follow the Ahl-e-Sunnatul Jamaat school of thought.

Now, a fatwa to sing Vande Mataram - Hyderabad - City - The Times of India

 

[RobbieS]

Well, I for one studied in public schools in India and we regularly sang Vande Mataram. A bit hard to pronounce the sanskritized words but yes we did sing it. And our class had a fair mixture of all religons, Hindu, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians and even a Tibetan Buddhist as I recall.
I dont really think its a religious issue. As a Mullah or a zealot we can make as many mountains as we want out of this molehill. Whats wrong with equating your country to the level of your Mother? Surely by singing the song we didnt actually plant a political map of India in our rooms and plant incense sticks around it! Its the sentiment of allegiance to your country that is being enforced upon here.
I am from a minority religion myself and still have no qualms about singing the song and nor do any of my other non-Hindu friends. And a song wont make you lose your religion. There are so many other ways by which you could go against the teachings of your religion. Seriously the Deobandi school ideologists and the SGPC thekedars need to focus on the real issues impacting their societies. And that whole Thackeray family needs to be flogged in their Ammchi Mumbai streets for trying to rake up communal issues at the slightest pretext!

 

[brahmastra]

Wow what an interpretation i am impressed. I was not expecting
this from person like your caliber (with invincible debate record) to be involved in this discussion.

Would you be able to interpret same for the Muslims to generalize them on same merit?

Let me help you;
Question 1: Are Muslims secular?

Question 2: Do Pakistanis ever respect freedom fighters and their associated emotions (Slogans/ patriotic songs etc.) leading us to freedom of India and Pakistan from British empire?

Question 3: What was important for a restless Muslim before independence, formation of Pakistan or freedom of India.

The answer will lead to understand why Indians love modified /constitutional version of vande mataram.

If answer of question 3 is Pakistan first; then i would be wastage of time to explain why question number 2's answer that we do respect our freedom fighter more then any thing; yield no value. Question no 1 will help us to know why to be a secular one has to value the fact living together is not an easy practice thus human civilizations demand compromise to religious bigotry. which of no value when same Muslim face towards 'Mecca' by making specific 'postures', kisses the 'holy 'Infused room' covered with holy back cloth and heavenly 'stone' and love holy 'book' Koran more then life are symbolic to idol worship. Hindus are not an exception by having same kind of gestures and idol of their own kind but believing in almighty pramatama having no shape blah blah blah etc.
Regards

brilliant. hats off for you brother.