Absence of dialogue is hurting India - OpEd - The Hindu

[MilesTogo]

What did ISI get out of the attacks in Mumbai?

Terrorized kafir hindus and killed 160 of them...

 

[Solomon2]

"what evidencedo you have that the LeT is a ISI creature."

I'll leave that for the courts right now.

"If killing of innocent people is the line -"

Bleeep! Red Herring Alert! Ad hominem attack in process! When all else fails, the Zionist must be wrong because I accuse him of being associated with the murders of innocents and we Pakistanis are axiomatically innocent of such things! Red Herring Alert!

 

[Spitfighter]

Well here's an interesting question, how is dialogue going to help? has it helped in the past?

What do we talk about and with whom? who's in charge, Zardari?

I think India should focus its energy elsewhere, dialogue hasn't changed anything for 6 decades. We have no reason to believe that Pakistan will deliver on its end of the bargain in any case.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Some people just really getting too crazy regarding ISI.. Their obsession just raises the fame , If it wouldnt been for them ISI would not had found such fame , and i really appreciate them for this ...!

 

[EjazR]

@Spitfighter

The article does address your questions quite logically IMO, read the bold parts. The relevant section is here. The 26/11 attackers have been arrested and charged and trial is underway. Its very likely that they will be convicted.

Before 26/11, the Kashmir issue was almost on its way to a resolution under the Musharraf-Singh formula, that attacks were meant among other things to disrupt it and they succeeded. Not talking to different players in Pakistan GoP, opposition, PA and intelligence chiefs, as the article suggests, is not making India any safer. But weakening that section of the Pakistani public that wants to have peaceful relations with India.

Dr. Singh’s advisers knew they were dealing with a fractured polity and society across the border. They knew India needed a differentiated approach that would help isolate those elements in the Pakistani establishment with connections to jihadi organisations while strengthening those who had realised the damage state sponsorship of extremism was inflicting on Pakistan itself.

Within this framework, suspension of official dialogue was seen as a way of putting pressure on the Pakistani military and the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate, a strange conclusion given that the army and the ISI were never too hot on talks in the first place and used the resulting tension to rally the nation behind them. The civilian leadership, which managed to get a reluctant establishment to accept that the Pakistani soil had indeed been used to plan 26/11, needed the limited resumption of dialogue to strengthen itself for the larger domestic battle against military dominance and jihadism. The arrest of senior LeT operatives should have occasioned some let up from India, at least by the time their trial got under way last year. But the hysterical cries of sell-out which greeted the July 2009 Sharm el-Sheikh summit stayed the Manmohan Singh government’s hand.

 

[Gazzi]

@Spitfighter

The article does address your questions quite logically IMO, read the bold parts. The relevant section is here. The 26/11 attackers have been arrested and charged and trial is underway. Its very likely that they will be convicted.

Before 26/11, the Kashmir issue was almost on its way to a resolution under the Musharraf-Singh formula, that attacks were meant among other things to disrupt it and they succeeded. Not talking to different players in Pakistan GoP, opposition, PA and intelligence chiefs, as the article suggests, is not making India any safer. But weakening that section of the Pakistani public that wants to have peaceful relations with India.

So in other words THE TERRORISTS WON............

 

[Gazzi]

"what evidencedo you have that the LeT is a ISI creature."

I'll leave that for the courts right now.

"If killing of innocent people is the line -"

Bleeep! Red Herring Alert! Ad hominem attack in process! When all else fails, the Zionist must be wrong because I accuse him of being associated with the murders of innocents and we Pakistanis are axiomatically innocent of such things! Red Herring Alert!

Why leave for the courts to decide...you made the post here claiming LeT a product of ISI, you prove it here or shut the hell up.

"zionist", did I even mention anything about zionism or being Jew. I couldn't care a rats ar5e who or what you are....you made a point, now back it up dimwhit.......

Pakistan has done many a wrongs, just like many others, were discussing dialogue with our enemy and how its absence may be hurting the relationship if any in South Asia.

I pointed out Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as the US flag is what your showing hence I pointed this holocaust out of many others.

Now lets not forget AQ is a product of the US and Afghanistan is here today thanks to the US........the world liberator

 

[Gazzi]

I believe India and Pakistan have tried isolation, segregation, intimidation, threats, war, infiltrations, spying and many others, F all has worked thus far.

Maybe they should try what they have been trying to avoid for quite a while. I have mentioned this in a thread once before

My theory -

Allow trade to flourish between India and Pakistan. Open up the roads and Pakistan should allow gas and oil pipelines in India and even give India access to the brand new rail tracks allowing Indian goods to reach Turkey and into Europe in days rather in weeks. In tun India sorting ot water disputes and other matters. The bond of trade will be so high and strong that Entrepanuers, policiticans, the people will try everything possible to prevent any hostilties. The Armed Forces from either side will not be able or afford to dictate the terms as both sides will have to lose a massive amount by going to war and gain everything by staying on track.

Obviously Pakistan will have to do alot to convince its people including the religious side as will India as 60 years of hatred is not going to end overnight.

Unfortunately, as much as China is a good friend of Pakistan, I do think outsiders will allow this and try and derail as much as possible any such scenario, like China with Pakistan and US/Israel with India. Hence why I ask for these wise level headed peple to come forward soon.

 

[ek_indian]

@Spitfighter

The article does address your questions quite logically IMO, read the bold parts. The relevant section is here. The 26/11 attackers have been arrested and charged and trial is underway. Its very likely that they will be convicted.

Before 26/11, the Kashmir issue was almost on its way to a resolution under the Musharraf-Singh formula, that attacks were meant among other things to disrupt it and they succeeded. Not talking to different players in Pakistan GoP, opposition, PA and intelligence chiefs, as the article suggests, is not making India any safer. But weakening that section of the Pakistani public that wants to have peaceful relations with India.

I agree with your point EjazR but as you mentioned different players and enlisted some of them. Each works rather independently (some evidences are there like Kargil). Therefore India's major headache is the center of gravity.

Being a democracy, protocal says IA chief should talk to PA chief. However there is no apparent political/diplomatic role of IA chief in India whereas in case of Pakistan it is not exactly like this. The problem is decision from any section is vetoed by other. You can say that India does not have many choices and worse, he is not sure which one is more relevant.

 

[Gazzi]

I agree with your point EjazR but as you mentioned different players and enlisted some of them. Each works rather independently (some evidences are there like Kargil). Therefore India's major headache is the center of gravity.

Being a democracy, protocal says IA chief should talk to PA chief. However there is no apparent political/diplomatic role of IA chief in India whereas in case of Pakistan it is not exactly like this. The problem is decision from any section is vetoed by other. You can say that India does not have many choices and worse, he is not sure which one is more relevant.

That is a very lame excuse, Pakistan has an elected Government body and they are there trying to encourage the Indians to talk just like Pakistan has done in the past and historically always India who makes pathetic and lame excuses of not knowing who to talk too.

kargil is a military operation in which all the facts are not known as there never has been an internal enquiry in Pakistan ever held, just speculation and individual comments, nevertheless it is still a military operation in disputed territory just like India and Siachen, this too can be used as an excuse by Pakistan and accuse India of its right hand not knowing what its left is doing.

India should just make it clear if they do not want to hold any sort of negotiations, but I think that is not going to be the case, why, becuase Pakistan is suceeding in fighting the militants and TTP, who we believe are sponsored terrorist with RAW and Indian backing (and you cannot say Pakistan is speculating when a serving officer, SERVING officer Col Prohit is maligned or his involvement in terrorist attacks in India where they wanted to shift the blame on Muslims) which goes to show the Indian treachery of India's military and suspicion of Pakistan also. However this Operation is gathering pace and Pakistan has successfully managed to isolate the TTP whilst keeping the Afghan Taliban out of the scope and only targetting those who wish to harm us.

The US is going full speed ahead with a withdrawal plan in 2011 in which India knows all too well, Pakistan will shift its focus back on Kashmir and the temporary setback suffered by freedom dighters may once again go ahead with full steam. India is all too aware of the last uprising and how close it came then with 700,000 troops and just cannot afford another scenario like this from developing and does not wish to have further anarchy in other parts of India i.e. Naxals, where recently Indian troops have launched operation in 5 separate States.

India knows all too well that whether is admits or not, Pakistan believes it to be behind terrorists in attacks on its soil and the ISI will this time around do what it can in causing as much chaos in other States in India hand in hand with China this time around.

The US will only have a small presence in Afghanistan if the Taliban allow which I doubt as they will continue relentlessly until all foreigners are out.

It may well be in India's best interest to hold talks as Pakistan will not just sit and watch as India has shown its colours as far as Pakistan is concerned.

Lets wait and see

 

[dabloo]

That is a very lame excuse, Pakistan has an elected Government body and they are there trying to encourage the Indians to talk just like Pakistan has done in the past and historically always India who makes pathetic and lame excuses of not knowing who to talk too.

kargil is a military operation in which all the facts are not known as there never has been an internal enquiry in Pakistan ever held, just speculation and individual comments, nevertheless it is still a military operation in disputed territory just like India and Siachen, this too can be used as an excuse by Pakistan and accuse India of its right hand not knowing what its left is doing.

India should just make it clear if they do not want to hold any sort of negotiations, but I think that is not going to be the case, why, becuase Pakistan is suceeding in fighting the militants and TTP, who we believe are sponsored terrorist with RAW and Indian backing (and you cannot say Pakistan is speculating when a serving officer, SERVING officer Col Prohit is maligned or his involvement in terrorist attacks in India where they wanted to shift the blame on Muslims) which goes to show the Indian treachery of India's military and suspicion of Pakistan also. However this Operation is gathering pace and Pakistan has successfully managed to isolate the TTP whilst keeping the Afghan Taliban out of the scope and only targetting those who wish to harm us.

The US is going full speed ahead with a withdrawal plan in 2011 in which India knows all too well, Pakistan will shift its focus back on Kashmir and the temporary setback suffered by freedom dighters may once again go ahead with full steam. India is all too aware of the last uprising and how close it came then with 700,000 troops and just cannot afford another scenario like this from developing and does not wish to have further anarchy in other parts of India i.e. Naxals, where recently Indian troops have launched operation in 5 separate States.

India knows all too well that whether is admits or not, Pakistan believes it to be behind terrorists in attacks on its soil and the ISI will this time around do what it can in causing as much chaos in other States in India hand in hand with China this time around.

The US will only have a small presence in Afghanistan if the Taliban allow which I doubt as they will continue relentlessly until all foreigners are out.

It may well be in India's best interest to hold talks as Pakistan will not just sit and watch as India has shown its colours as far as Pakistan is concerned.

Lets wait and see

This is Request or warning.

 

[Solomon2]

Why leave for the courts to decide...you made the post here claiming LeT a product of ISI, you prove it here or shut the hell up.

I suppose I could post "proof" but I'll give the ISI a wee bit of benefit of the doubt: in these cases isn't always clear what the facts mean, whether they point to ISI direction, influence, a limited intelligence-gathering operation, or confused communication. Such clarifications may come out in court, or not.

Yet two things we can be certain of: (1) Pakistan originally insisted that ALL evidence of the Mumbai Massacre be provided by Indian, not Pakistani, sources, a move that would have exposed India's intelligence sources in Pakistan to the ISI's benefit, and (2) that the commanders of LeT were police-protected after Mumbai by the GoP and I don't know of any organization in Pakistan other than the ISI capable of arranging that, do you?

I couldn't care a rats ar5e who or what you are -

I believe that is the correct attitude!

I pointed out Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as the US flag is what your showing hence I pointed this holocaust out of many others...Now lets not forget AQ is a product of the US and Afghanistan is here today thanks to the US........the world liberator

These are digressions on your part, which I won't bite here - save 'em for a separate thread or two, OK?

 

[Gazzi]

I suppose I could post "proof" but I'll give the ISI a wee bit of benefit of the doubt: in these cases isn't always clear what the facts mean, whether they point to ISI direction, influence, a limited intelligence-gathering operation, or confused communication. Such clarifications may come out in court, or not.

Yet two things we can be certain of: (1) Pakistan originally insisted that ALL evidence of the Mumbai Massacre be provided by Indian, not Pakistani, sources, a move that would have exposed India's intelligence sources in Pakistan to the ISI's benefit, and (2) that the commanders of LeT were police-protected after Mumbai by the GoP and I don't know of any organization in Pakistan other than the ISI capable of arranging that, do you?

I believe that is the correct attitude!

These are digressions on your part, which I won't bite here - save 'em for a separate thread or two, OK?

That i the most dumbet viewpoint I have ever heard, India made the allegation of Pakistanis involved in the attack, if so, then any court in Pakistan will ask for ALL evidence, would they not do the same in the US. Why do you think Pakistani courts will not, this is how a trial is held. You cannot convict a person without the Defence having access to all relevant data, after all, we have every right to be suspicious of India, they are our enemy.

Secondly, the people in question, i.e. Hafiz Saeed is a free man in Pakistan, he has been accused and therefore enough evidence to pass a threshold test to have him detained, but not enough for trial or conviction as this then comes into the realm of court proceedings, police investigations are different from that. Whether they were given protection or not is a matter for the Pakistan Government to decide, and if they instruct ISI, then so be it, it will be ISI, if they instruct FIA, then FIA it will be.............

If that was your reasoning for thinking they are the "creation" of the ISI, then you Sir need to get a reality check done, you sound really stupid

"I believe that is the correct attitude!"

You believe what is the correct attitude, the fact that I don't care if you are Jewish, only becuase of your pathetic attitude of crying "i'm Jew, thats why your saying this and that" crap. Get a life and grow up.......Keep this I am oppressed crap for elsewhere, now get on with the topic and post you made about LeT being ISI creation. Prove your point or please shut the hell up

 

[Solomon2]

That i the most dumbet viewpoint I have ever heard, India made the allegation of Pakistanis involved in the attack, if so, then any court in Pakistan will ask for ALL evidence -

OK, the issue - which has been discussed in the past at PDF - is that police in Pakistan had already collected data, some of which is known from news reports, yet officially the world was being told that Pakistan knew absolutely nothing about the Mumbai attackers so India would have to provide everything and spill the info from its sources within Pakistan if there was to be hope of obtaining a conviction.

Whether they were given protection or not is a matter for the Pakistan Government to decide, and if they instruct ISI, then so be it, it will be ISI, if they instruct FIA, then FIA it will be. If that was your reasoning for thinking they are the "creation" of the ISI, then you Sir need to get a reality check -

How shall I do that?

 

[RiazHaq]

I believe activity on the political front of the India-Pakistan conflict is the surest way to de-fang the ISI entirely. Otherwise, the only opening for initiative will be Mumbai-type terror attacks, which essentially lead to the ISI dictating Pakistan's India policy to Pakistan's politicians, rather than the reverse.

Please pay attention to the Hindu's Op Ed author's words as you blame ISI for everything that goes wrong in South Asia:

We will never know whether somebody from our shadowy security establishment whispered something dark and fanciful in the ears of the owners and managers of the Indian Premier League as they went in for the player auction last week and if so, for whom he was batting.

Haq's Musings: Hindutva Terror to Spark India-Pakistan War?