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A Second Iranian Revolution?

You accuse conservative Islam as having the same interpretation of Islam like current Iranian Mullah regime interpretation of Islam by the way you wrote your opinion. That is clear coming from your writing. That statement attacks Conservative Islam as Westerners and Indian every where think that Conservative Islam (represented by Iran and Taliban according to many Indians and Western people) as fundamentalist Islam (real Islam).
No, I just posted some pics of a few decades back when 'how to dress' was not being enforced there. Where exactly did I attack conservatism ? Pretty sure not all 100% were wearing western etc clothes back during the Shah's time then... It should be a choice, and the government should not interfere in these matters.. you will of course still have super conservative families and neighborhoods and other situations where people abide by whatever is supposed to be proper.

In Xingiang they banned stacheless / long beards for men, and lady police officers were ripping off ultra conservative women's clothes a bit.. its right there, you can search for it.. that's also extreme.

I'm not going to get into religious debates here, they are not allowed here, and that wasn't my point anyway.

Iranians are a cool people and large segments of their youth are starting to somewhat "rebel" because this much conservatism is stifling to many of them.

Saudis are similar, I had a British friend who was working (on his laptop) in his hotel room and the housekeeping person was a lady but she couldn't clean while just they two of them together in the room so he was explained to, very politely, that he must exit the room while she cleans up etc by the management.... because a woman and a man can not be alone in a room ? ...even if the guy was just working in a corner.. that is literally insane.
 
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No, I just posted some pics of a few decades back when 'how to dress' was not being enforced there. Where exactly did I attack conservatism ? Pretty sure not all 100% were wearing western etc clothes back during the Shah's time then... It should be a choice, and the government should not interfere in these matters.. you will of course still have super conservative families and neighborhoods and other situations where people abide by whatever is supposed to be proper.

In Xingiang they banned stacheless / long beards for men, and lady police officers were ripping off ultra conservative women's clothes a bit.. its right there, you can search for it.. that's also extreme.

I'm not going to get into religious debates here, they are not allowed here, and that wasn't my point anyway.

Iranians are a cool people and large segments of their youth are starting to somewhat "rebel" because this much conservatism is stifling to many of them.

Saudis are similar, I had a British friend who was working (on his laptop) in his hotel room and the housekeeping person was a lady but she couldn't clean while just they two of them together in the room so he was explained to, very politely, that he must exit the room while she cleans up etc by the management.... because a woman and a man can not be alone in a room ? ...even if the guy was just working in a corner.. that is literally insane.

About Xin Jiang, I am still consistent with my stand, you are new here, I was debating with some Chinese and Pakistani who support China about Xinjinag. I put video where it is clear that Hijab is not allowed to be wear by Xin Jiang people, except foreign tourist. I am the one posting China CCP mouth piece (Global Times) where CCP officials are put on each Uigyur family.

Regarding to Saudi, they also have their own interpretation of Islam. This is why God said in Quran that if Muslim has different opinion regarding to Islam, then use Quran and Hadith as the solution. Some times, we still follow old Ulama opinion where their opinion in some cases dont have strong backing from both Quran and Hadith, that is the problem that I see in some Muslim country that follow SHARIAH Islam, too much following their own Ulama. Regarding Hijab, those 4 Islamic Sunni Madzab (interpretation of 4 ancient and respected Ulama) also have different in term of enforcing or not enforcing it if I am not mistaken.

Based on my own understanding after I read whole Quran verses and read many Hadith. Basically in Shariah Islam, there are Public Shariah and Private Shariah. Praying, wearing Hijab and others are regarded as Private Shariah where Government and group of people cannot intervene, they cannot intervene because there are no punishment written in Quran for any one who dont pray, dont wear Hijab for women etc. For kids, since they are still under their parents protection so their parent still have some control on them, despite so many young girls under 12 years old some how also like to wear hijab because they want to mimic their mothers and other adult female. I like parent should play in balance in this matter.

Interpreting Quran and Hadith

Quran, Hadith are products of high intelligent. God is the creator of intelligent and prophet Muhammad is very intelligent. We also need to have strong relationship with God and understand what God is like in His personality, so we will have more understanding about our own God .......actually prophet Muhammad has shown many hadith showing God is really Merciful and even in Quran it is also stated many times. He wants to make us happy, because of that He creates color, fruits, melody, etc, that are all created by Him.

The thing that is vital to Muslim is that to have close relationship with our own God. The problem with Wahabi teaching (and many Conservative Muslim groups) according to me is that they think God is in the sky. The way they interpret Quran verse is so simple and basic.

God clearly said that He is closer to human than human to his own juvenile in one Quran verses and other verses showing He is basically every where. When you have mind set that God is above the sky (despite the Earth is actually round, so saying God is above the sky is ridiculous), you make distance to God in your heart. This makes our heart get harden and that heart make us see Islam in the harden side, while forgetting many Quran and Hadith showing God is Merciful and wants us to be happy.

This that lead me to think that this may be the reason of why some Wahabi become follower of ISIS, AQ etc that prefer something like war, control and violence as their see in Islam. The way iranian Mullah regime behavior with their easily killing their own people during high fuel protest and current protest shows they are also likely part of this group

Right Balance

We need to understand that in Western and Christian nations, non Halal sex (Zinah) has become something that is so easy to be done. My understanding of why Christian people have become so liberal nowadays and even many have become Atheist are because what happen in Western nation during Christian clerics rule during their Christian Faith period.

During those period, they are also so rigid and authoritarian in interpreting and imposing their Christian religion. This, in my opinion, lead to Christian follower then rebelling and running away from Christian teaching and we have seen them now as what we are seeing now in term of morality. Action creates Reaction. Iranian population can become like this as well as they are now under rigid regime that too much in control of their private life

This something to be learned by many countries that enforce Hijabs and others. No need to be so tight in controlling the society and we should always make Islam easy since Islam is basically easy


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1979 was a real revolution.

Current one is just another fake color revolution. Fueled with foreign money, and internet bots, lies and manipulation.

There is no room for real revolutions since USA dominates Internet.
All is a lie.
 
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Islam should not be seen as set of rules to be obeyed, but Islam is about private relationship between human and their God.

That relationship that make us easy to comply with Islamic rule which is basically made to make us become higher in degree (not behaving like animals). When our soul reach this degree, this make us closer to God as God is sit in high degree position (not physically). When we are close to God, then it is the condition that is the most convenience, this is why any Heaven population is reported to live beside God according to Quran (and also Christian holly book).

So God wants us to reach that degree because God also wants to be near us, this is why He makes set of rules (religion), but of course it is impossible for God to be near any entity that has much lower degree than Him. Basically we have already near God physically as God is every where according to Quran.

That is the essence of religion according to me. This is also why prophet Muhammad said that the best Muslim is the one that has the best character, that character show where our degree is, then it shows where our position to God.

We need to believe there is called Ruh (soul) in every human that according to Quran comes directly from God Ruh. That is that can connect us to God and that is also the place of real happiness and satisfaction.
 
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Islam should not be seen as set of rules to be obeyed, but Islam is about private relationship between human and their God.
Islam contains private and social orders, you can be anything in your private life, god will judge you, but in society, you have to obey the social orders of Islam or face the punishments mentioned in both Quran and Hadith.
 
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The mullahs lose the plot. Instead of announce investigation Into the mystery death of the young 22 years old Kurdish girl under detention. They brush it off and expect mass Iranian to shove it down their throat over such death.

They are too overconfident and over optimistic of their support in Iran.
Iran will probably find a lower level official to blame, make some reforms to improve people’s stands of living (strategically distributing some of the money from the current high oil prices via employment and other projects), as well as probably jump start any economic projects planned with China.

Are there any lessons Iran should learn from Deng Xioping post 1989? It seems China dealt with the events of that year better then the soviets, despite their efforts with their peristroka and glasnost.
 
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Islam contains private and social orders, you can be anything in your private life, god will judge you, but in society, you have to obey the social orders of Islam or face the punishments mentioned in both Quran and Hadith.
The punishment mentioned in Quran and Hadith related to social order and human behavior are only in Criminal Act (stealing, killing) and doing non halal sex (only if there is penetration on women vagina ). Also there is verse in Quran saying 1 year seclution ( can be regarded as Today prison on immoral person, I forgot the act but it is not related to disobedience in practicing private Islamic rule like praying for both adulth men an women, wearing hijab for women, etc)

There is no punishment made in Quran and Hadith related to disobedient in practicing private Shariah thing (praying 5 times within a day, eating only Halal food, not drinking alcohol, circumcision for men, praying Jumah for men, wearing hijab for women, etc) and no statement on Quran and Hadith about enforcing the private practice of individual (praying, wearing hijab, etc) by the state or group of people.
 
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NOVEMBER 2022 IRAN
A Second Iranian Revolution?

A Second Iranian Revolution?​

The parallels are astonishing
by Ray Takeyh

The strange echoes of the 1970s over the past 18 months—with runaway inflation, an energy crisis, and an expansionist Russia—were startling enough. And then a revolt began in Iran, just as one did beginning in 1978. It features an aging autocrat who’s dying of cancer and overseeing a rebellious nation that has tired of his rule and the corruption of his cronies. History may not repeat itself, but it is surely rhyming in the streets of Tehran. And indeed, the best way to chart the possible trajectory of the current Iranian revolution is to look at the last one.

“Iran because of the leadership of the shah, is an island of stability in one of the more troubled areas of the world,” said President Jimmy Carter during a visit to Iran in 1977. Although Carter’s unfortunate toast would be much ridiculed in the years ahead, it is important to note that until the last days of Mohammad Reza Shah’s Pahlavi dynasty, Western chancelleries and intelligence services as well as the foreign-policy intelligentsia were united in their belief that somehow the cagey monarch who had weathered so many crises would survive the latest one.

Behind the glitter of a rapidly modernizing and increasingly wealthy elite, Iran in the 1970s was a land of discontent. The corruption of the ruling class, the provocative social cleavages that sudden oil wealth generated, and the frustration of working in a system that discounted merit in favor of patronage and nepotism led many to join the rank of the opposition. In a paradoxical manner, the shah was bedeviled by his own success. He created a modern middle class but then refused to offer it a meaningful venue for political participation. His compact with his people was a transactional one, in which he exchanged financial rewards for political passivity. Even if Iran had not experienced a steep recession in the mid-1970s, this bargain would have been unsustainable. The Iranian masses wanted a say in how their nation was governed. Even more striking, the crass Westernization had a vast swath of the Iranian public eager to restore the central place of Shiite tradition.

Every revolution needs a spark, a watershed event after which things are not the same. In the early days of the Iranian revolution, which began in earnest in October 1977, the Iranian people were not calling for the disbanding of the monarchy but rather for meaningful constitutional reform. They wanted a free press, free political parties, and free elections. The intelligentsia wrote letters and petitions, the university students tore up their dorm rooms, the mullahs called for respecting religion in public life, and demonstrations were small and sporadic. In exile, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini thundered as the storm gathered.


This all changed in August 1978. On August 9, terrorists set ablaze Rex Cinema in the city of Abadan and killed 479 people. This was the most egregious act of arson in Iran’s modern history. Exiled in Iraq, Khomeini did a masterful job of blaming the Shah for the fire even though it was later revealed that Khomeini’s own followers had set it. The Rex Cinema bombing was an inflection point in the history of the revolution. Up until then, only the hardcore opponents of the shah had participated in demonstrations. Now many fence-sitters began tilting toward the opposition. The size of the marches grew by the thousands as Iran’s uprising became a popular revolt with Khomeini as its leader. The shah’s belated promises of reform were swept aside as no one could trust a leader who set his people on fire.
As significant as street protests were, it was the nationwide strikes that crippled the monarchy. A dynamic country suddenly went dark. Newspapers stopped publishing, electricity flickered, bazaars shut down, banks stopped processing transactions, and ports were filled with unprocessed cargo. Most important, Iranian oil production came to a halt. The country stopped functioning. In his palaces, the shah, who was dying of cancer, brooded more than plotted and concocted various conspiracy theories to explain his predicament.

In the White House, Jimmy Carter assured himself that even if the shah had lost his will, Iran’s armed forces could be counted on to restore order. He was not alone in this misapprehension, as most observers of Iran believed that the formidable army would seize the day. Too often, we ignore the fact that national armies don’t like shooting their own people. Battling foreign enemies and suppressing ethnic uprisings is different from going into neighborhoods day after day and killing civilians. A determined national protest movement can erode the morale of an army, shatter its cohesion, and lure conscripts away from their unenviable task of killing their countrymen.

The shah fled, his army crumbled, and the revolution triumphed as one of the great populist revolts of modern history. It was all things to all people. For liberals, it was a chance to construct a representative government that was accountable to its citizens. For the devout, it was an opportunity to forge an order where religion informed politics. Islamic canons were seen as flexible enough to accommodate both faith and freedom. The Islamic Republic was to offer the hard-pressed masses cultural authenticity, a stable economy, and participatory politics. No one thought of theocratic absolutism as the endgame—except the clerics in charge.
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The durability of the current Iranian regime cannot be attributed simply to brute force. The genius of the system is that it contains within its autocratic structure elected institutions that have little power but that still provide the public with some means of expressing their grievances. In the absence of such a safety valve, however superficial, the mullahs would have confronted even more protests than they have over the past two decades. The theocracy bears all the hallmarks of a dictatorship, but it has also maintained a thin veneer of collective action.

To become a revolutionary and risk one’s life for a cause that seems distant, if not improbable, is one of the most crucial decisions a citizen will make. All social protest movements battle against great odds; history has shown that most revolutions fail. The Islamic Republic offered the masses the opportunity to participate in the national scene, but cleverly hemmed them in on all sides with clerical bodies who vetted candidates for public office. Still, when an average citizen is faced with the choice of rebelling against a vicious system or casting a ballot that will have a limited impact, he will probably opt for the latter.
The regime has had lively elections in which a diverse range of candidates made all sorts of promises. In the 1990s, Mohammad Khatami captured the national imagination by pledging to harmonize religious precepts with democratic norms. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is best remembered for his crass denials of the Holocaust—but at home, he spoke of fair wealth distribution. More recently, Hassan Rouhani insisted that his nuclear diplomacy would generate foreign investment and revive Iran’s moribund economy. But none of these dreams materialized, and Iranians today are bereft of delusions. They know the theocracy remains in the grip of an unelected few and is drowning in corruption. The current uprising shows that the head mullah, Ayatollah Khamenei, forgot the most essential lesson of the shah’s demise—that, at times, desperate masses have little choice but to revolt.

The 2021 presidential election is likely to be remembered as the most consequential in the history of the Islamic Republic. As Khamenei, suffering from cancer, contemplated his succession, he sought to ensure a republic manned by his most reliable henchman and an economy immune to foreign sanctions. There was not even the pretense of a competitive race, as conservative stalwarts such as former speaker of the parliament Ali Larijani were disqualified from running. The presidency went to Ibrahim Raisi, a laconic and unimaginative mass murderer who had spent his life manning the regime’s dungeons. A sullen citizenry battered by a mismanaged pandemic watched all this with considerable angst. Khamenei’s attempt to cement his legacy began to undo his republic.
From its inception, the Islamic Republic has faced protests. Liberals, secularists, student activists, disgruntled clerics, and middle-class elements have all turned against the state at various points. The regime’s leaders were quick to dismiss all of it. They believed that the students had been seduced by America’s cultural temptations. They thought the middle class focused too narrowly on its material wealth and was therefore unable to see the true benefits of the divine republic. To them, liberals are mere apostates.

But there was something new and dangerous about the demonstrations of the past few years. This was the revolt of the poor.

As he embarked on his latest confrontation with the West, Khamenei sought to fashion an economy that would be lean and self-reliant. The American sanctions imposed after Donald Trump pulled out of the Iran deal in 2018 were presented as a blessing; they would force the state to put its house in order and trim the subsidies that were draining the treasury. In yet another miscalculation, the regime assumed that the poor, the primary beneficiaries of the welfare state, would once more sacrifice on behalf of the revolution. This was, after all, a revolution of the oppressed, waged in their name and for their salvation. Unlike the upper classes, the poor were the essential pillar of the republic. But in both 2017 and 2019, the poor took to the streets, calling for the overthrow of the regime.

The challenge for the clerical oligarchs was to dispatch a conscript army to shantytowns that were culturally familiar to them. The fearsome Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, or IRGC, may be manned by an indoctrinated class of officers, but Iranian foot soldiers are still largely drawn from the pool of draftees. The average conscript may relish beating up pampered university students but would have a tough time turning on his own. The regime enforcers understood this and developed a clever containment strategy. A quick show of violence would be followed by disabling social media and thereby cutting off the demonstrations from one another. They would then wait for the protests to peter out. The immediate demonstrations were eventually quelled—but the cause of discontent lingered.

In the summer of 2022, an unusually divisive spirit seemed to descend on Iran, and the state and society moved in completely different directions. The mullahs were preoccupied with their nuclear gamesmanship, economic tinkering, and the reimposition of severe religious strictures. In the meantime, ordinary Iranians were protesting: Teachers protested about their pay, retirees about their benefits, farmers about lack of water, and women about their mandatory attire in stifling heat. As in 1978, economic anxiety, social envy, and political disenfranchisement became a powerful force directed against the regime. The Islamic Republic had done it to itself. All channels for political expression were blocked by a corrupt and arrogant ruling elite that was demanding discipline and sacrifice.

And then came the spark. On September 16, a 22-year-old Iranian woman named Mahsa Amini, who had been arrested by the morality police for wearing her hijab improperly, died in custody. Her senseless killing symbolized the cruelty of clerical rule. Cities, provinces, and towns were suddenly engulfed in protests. The chants of “Mullahs get lost” and “We don’t want your Islamic Republic” echoed throughout the country. The old playbook for containing the demonstrations did not seem to work, as the conscripts were asked to shoot women. They hesitated; the demonstrations persisted. Iran’s chief justice, Gholam-Hossein Mohseni-Eje’i, is reported to have complained that the security forces are “tired and broken, with very low morale.” A semblance of normalcy may yet return to the country, but Iranians of all classes and genders have lost their sense of fear.

The events of this summer seem eerily similar to those of 1978. Amini’s murder provoked a sense of national outrage like the bombing of Rex Cinema. As with the monarchy, the regime has lost its narrative and its bearings. Ali Khamenei has said, “I openly state that the recent riots and unrest in Iran were schemes designed by the U.S., the Zionist regime, their mercenaries, and some treasonous Iranians abroad who helped them.” The shah thought and said the same things and dispatched his diplomats to ask the Carter administration why the CIA was plotting against him. In an ominous sign for the regime in September 2022, the nation’s oil workers issued a statement: “We support the people’s struggles against organized and everyday violence against women and against the poverty and hell that dominate the society.” A young revolutionary at the time of the last Iranian revolution, Khamenei surely recalls that it was strikes that crippled the monarchy and hastened its collapse.

Today, the regime seems to be taking comfort in the fact that at this point there is no charismatic personality or a political party leading the opposition. A revolution, after all, needs revolutionaries. And the mullahs are still in command of an array of security organs. But these are thin reeds. The longer the protests linger, the more they are likely to generate leaders who will take charge of the movement. In the meantime, every day, the mullahs will ask their taxed military to kill poor people and unarmed women. If the regime has only the army as its mainstay of support, then it has little in the way of national strength. The shah had a well-armed military and a seemingly all-knowing secret service, SAVAK, but their combined might could not contain a movement seeking change. The records of the Pahlavi monarchy published by the Islamic Republic reveals that the shah’s generals were most alarmed about the cohesion of their conscript army dispatched to the streets to quell peaceful demonstrations. It is entirely possible that similar conversations are taking place today in the regime’s corridors of power.

The Islamists have made nearly all the same mistakes as the monarch they overthrew. The regime lacks an appealing ideology and shields itself in rhetoric that convinces no one. It is led by a corrupt and out-of-touch elite that relies on conspiracy theories to justify its conduct. It has pursued a foreign policy whose costs are more apparent than its benefits. And the mullahs have forgotten the most essential lesson of their revolutionary triumph: Persian armies don’t like killing their people en masse.

The new Iranian revolution has begun, we just don’t know it yet.

Another Syria in the making.
 
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The punishment mentioned in Quran and Hadith related to social order and human behavior are only in Criminal Act (stealing, killing) and doing non halal sex (only if there is penetration on women vagina ). Also there is verse in Quran saying 1 year seclution ( can be regarded as Today prison on immoral person, I forgot the act but it is not related to disobedience in practicing private Islamic rule like praying for both adulth men an women, wearing hijab for women, etc)

There is no punishment made in Quran and Hadith related to disobedient in practicing private Shariah thing (praying 5 days, eating only Halal food, circumcision for men, praying Jumah for men, wearing hijab for women, etc ) and no statement on Quran and Hadith about enforcing the private practice of individual (praying, wearing hijab) by the state and group of people.
It's funny how you consider dress code a private practice, something which even west doesn't accept.
 
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Islam should not be seen as set of rules to be obeyed, but Islam is about private relationship between human and their God.

That relationship that make us easy to comply with Islamic rule which is basically made to make us become higher in degree (not behaving like animals). When our soul reach this degree, this make us closer to God as God is sit in high degree position (not physically). When we are close to God, then it is the condition that is the most convenience, this is why any Heaven population is reported to live beside God according to Quran (and also Christian holly book).

So God wants us to reach that degree because God also wants to be near us, this is why He makes set of rules (religion), but of course it is impossible for God to be near any entity that has much lower degree than Him. Basically we have already near God physically as God is every where according to Quran.

That is the essence of religion according to me. This is also why prophet Muhammad said that the best Muslim is the one that has the best character, that character show where our degree is, then it shows where our position to God.

We need to believe there is called Ruh (soul) in every human that according to Quran comes directly from God Ruh. That is that can connect us to God and that is also the place of real happiness and satisfaction.

Religion only changes the behavior of most of people when it's practiced in community.

I dont know if it's a good or a bad thing.

But religion as a private thing doesnt work in most of people. It must be something colective and social to work.
 
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Yeah but rapid changed forced on those who aren’t ready as a whole isn’t right either, gradual change without reversing those changes is the way to go, Arab spring by itself proved it, you might have large parts of the population that might follow but you also have large parts of the population who aren’t ready
Yeah true, just like the shah government should never have been radically toppled by the Mullahs. They should have given the shah government time to reform their policies slowly.
 
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What I heard, Khomeini was shelling through BBC radio nonstop, that is how he became the figure head.

Anglo use Khomeini to do a regime change, told military brass to stand down, let Khomeini clean the commie, then give the revolution regime a rouge country treatment.

Actually, that is pretty close to what happens in Chinese civil war.
 
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