A Normal Nuclear Pakistan

[MastanKhan]

There is a far greater danger building up here for Pakistan, and I am surprised that the intelligent section of PDF hasn't spotted it yet.

Sahib's point is quite simple.

Finally the day will come when after losing a company strength encounter, the brigade, division or corps commander will ask for a single nuclear warhead to be detonated on the ground that his troops have surrendered, as there is no other course.

Hi,

Sir---if the threshold level goes down---then it is as much a concern for india as it is for Pakistan---.

And exactly for this reason----I have been saying for years---Pakistan needs heavy deep strike and air superiority aircraft---. If it has a strong and offensive air capability---it will strengthen its position on the land---..

As long as Pakistan air force has conventional strength to strike the midway and lower coastline of india---to do some real damage in return---the war may stay conventional---it must also have the strength to keep air superiority over its skies for the first 72 - 96 hours to create some balance of power in the war----.

I had half-feared, half-hoped that @niaz Sahib would raise the opposite side of the equation up for consideration.

Suppose he had said,

that's all very well, under the debilitating influence of the bomb, the morale in the services need not only drop, it might even go up. They might be motivated to fight every fight with everything they had, secure in the comfort that even if they lost due to taking too many risks, the motherland was safe, the nuclear stockpile would guarantee that.

It is a possibility. I believe that the risk is too high for any military administration to take. I believe that this is the wrong time to take such existential chances. There should be room for error, generous room for error.

In earlier conflicts, India's strategic conservative nature kept a cap on losses in battle. Now that the genie is out of the bottle, now that a right-wing Hindutvavadi party in power in Delhi is no longer a laughing matter, that strategic conservatism might not be available as a brake any longer.

Hi,

Sir---this scenario will happen---only if the paf is strong enough to hold onto it skies and then reach out and touch someone as well----at the same time.

Otherwise indeed --the threshold leve is getting extremely low---.

And that is really really stupid---. Because Pakistan is still using the 90's mentality when it was dirt poor and and ill equipped and kept using the nuc mantra---. Pakistan is much better of today----life is good and there is no reason to die just like that----it is better to fight and to fight---the country needs to invest in its air force------.

A 5 billion dollars investment in the air force---would be a game changer for Pakistan----. We are making a blunder by investing 5 billion dollars in the sub marine deal---that should have been spent on air superiority aircraft----.

A deadly strike air force on booth the sides---will take the steam out of the boiling cauldron.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hi,

Sir---if the threshold level goes down---then it is as much a concern for india as it is for Pakistan---.

And exactly for this reason----I have been saying for years---Pakistan needs heavy deep strike and air superiority aircraft---. If it has a strong and offensive air capability---it will strengthen its position on the land---..

As long as Pakistan air force has conventional strength to strike the midway and lower coastline of india---to do some real damage in return---the war may stay conventional---it must also have the strength to keep air superiority over its skies for the first 72 - 96 hours to create some balance of power in the war----.

Sir,

I agree with you partially.

The ideal solution, to my mind, would in part be for Pakistan to have a superior air force, complete with conventional deep strike capability and air superiority, but two other factors also come to mind. These are fanciful but I would like to try them out on you and see your reactions.

Hi,

Sir---this scenario will happen---only if the paf is strong enough to hold onto it skies and then reach out and touch someone as well----at the same time.

Otherwise indeed --the threshold leve is getting extremely low---.

And that is really really stupid---. Because Pakistan is still using the 90's mentality when it was dirt poor and and ill equipped and kept using the nuc mantra---. Pakistan is much better of today----life is good and there is no reason to die just like that----it is better to fight and to fight---the country needs to invest in its air force------.

A 5 billion dollars investment in the air force---would be a game changer for Pakistan----. We are making a blunder by investing 5 billion dollars in the sub marine deal---that should have been spent on air superiority aircraft----.

A deadly strike air force on booth the sides---will take the steam out of the boiling cauldron.

Yes, yes, yes.....

I would like to add to this.

 

[GURU DUTT]

@araz

Kargil and 26/11 both happened under a nuclear umbrella.

Both times India reacted.

Think on that.

And then tell me what's in it for us to sit down with you and "solve our differences"?

Don't you guys see it clearly?

You're not scaring us. We have you covered. Neutralized.

The game is with China.

And you keep inviting us to play.

Well, play we will. But our own game. Our terms. Our rules.

Cheers, Doc

 

[vsdoc]

View attachment 266445

I have only the highest regard for my seniors from either side. Araz, Niaz, and Fatman. Third Eye and Joe.

But react we did.

Just not how they expected us to.

And both times they came back wanting to "talk".

I'm afraid the dynamics have changed greatly since 1947.

And Pakistan is in no position to force any issue.

A nuclear arsenal per Slade only ensures a country will never have a foreign army marching on its soil.

But in achieving that, the country enters a Catch 22.

In that it can never be defeated, in the classical traditional military and political sense of the word.

But it can be killed.

Cheers, Doc

 

[GURU DUTT]

I have only the highest regard for my seniors from either side. Araz, Niaz, and Fatman. Third Eye and Joe.

But react we did.

Just not how they expected us to.

And both times they came back wanting to "talk".

I'm afraid the dynamics have changed greatly since 1947.

And Pakistan is in no position to force any issue.

A nuclear arsenal per Slade only ensures a country will never have a foreign army marching on its soil.

But in achieving that, the country enters a Catch 22.

In that it can never be defeated, in the classical traditional military and political sense of the word.

But it can be killed.

Cheers, Doc

in short pakistan and india will keep on doing nuclear chest thumping and we the so called arm chair internet generals will keep having a good time

 

[vsdoc]

in short pakistan and india will keep on doing nuclear chest thumping and we the so called arm chair internet generals will keep having a good time

No. Pakistan will keep nuclear chest thumping.

India will keep engaging Pakistan in the manner it sees fit to.

Armchair warriors do not count. Not unless they have the power to make one bullet fly in anger against the other side.

 

[GURU DUTT]

No. Pakistan will keep nuclear chest thumping.

India will keep engaging Pakistan in the manner it sees fit to.

Armchair warriors do not count. Not unless they have the power to make one bullet fly in anger against the other side.

sirji you dint got my intentions anyway we dont need to do anything than doubling owr vigil and prepairdeness level on the western border and keep imrooving owr economy and relations with friendly nations pakistan deu to its anty india obsession will do the needful

 

[vsdoc]

sirji you dint got my intentions anyway we dont need to do anything than doubling owr vigil and prepairdeness level on the western border and keep imrooving owr economy and relations with friendly nations pakistan deu to its anty india obsession will do the needful

I'm afraid that is not enough.

The passive aggressive stance of Pakistan will need to be countered hard. Disproportionately. Asymmetrically. Full spectrum.

Inside Pakistan.

Any less will embolden them further. To the eventual detriment of both of us.

 

[my2cents]

Of course. Both sides are already putting up with the costs of the status quo. This will likely go on until one or both sides decide for themselves if the costs have become unaffordable. Then we will see progress towards some sort of a solution.

Very well said sir. I hope that sense will prevail in our subcontinent. We owe it to our future generations.

 

[VCheng]

The passive aggressive stance of Pakistan will need to be countered hard.

Passive-Aggressive stance? That concept applies to individuals, Sir, and has no place in international geopolitics, where only the pursuit of national interests reigns supreme.

Very well said sir. I hope that sense will prevail in our subcontinent. We owe it to our future generations.

Eventually, sense will prevail, of that I am quite sure. But it will take a while for matters to get there, and not anytime soon.

 

[vsdoc]

Passive-Aggressive stance? That concept applies to individuals, Sir, and has no place in international geopolitics, where only the pursuit of national interests reigns supreme.

A nation is but a collective of individuals sir.

And I do not know whose interests Pakistan has been serving but looking at where it stands today I must deduce that either

(1) they were not her own

Or

(2) she does not have a clue

 

[VCheng]

A nation is but a collective of individuals sir.

And I do not know whose interests Pakistan has been serving but looking at where it stands today I must deduce that either

(1) they were not her own

Or

(2) she does not have a clue

Or both are true.

Anyways, international geopolitics will remain what they are, with no applicability of behavioral concepts that apply to individuals, Sir.

 

[vsdoc]

Or both are true.

Anyways, international geopolitics will remain what they are, with no applicability of behavioral concepts that apply to individuals, Sir.

Sir I do suspect that the big guns have gone silent due to our (relative) pre pubescent sparring and are in contemplation of mutually served self interests in quarantining us both forthwith.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir I do suspect that the big guns have gone silent due to our (relative) pre pubescent sparring and are in contemplation of mutually served self interests in quarantining us both forthwith.

Half correct.

 

[vsdoc]

Half correct.

Hope the spine is holding up.

I shall help.