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A Look at Indian Army's Main Battle Tanks

Flaws of Arjun:

1. Main sight weakspot - General armour of front turret is estimated at 735 mm but area behind weakspot is rated at only 400 mm of armour by Western Analysts.

2. Side Turret armour placement - 30 degree Safe Manoeuvring angles are safe but beyond that, composites are weak and at least 2 empty tool boxes are there instead of armour. First block of armour is rated at 300 mm+ comparable to Western tanks but area behind tool boxes is a pitiful 60 mm.

3. Main gun - The biggest mistake was going for a rifled weapon. While Arjun's gun is comparable in strength to smoothbore weapons, the barrel wears out much quicker. However, the gun has potential for an extreme 800 mm long rod penetrators to be used.

Solutions:

Problem 1. Arjun Mk-II has already solved a part of the problem by adding NERA and thicker Kanchan plate after main sight.

Problem 2. Tool boxes can be removed and composite filler added - NERA might be placed OVER tool boxes.

Problem 3. Is bound to be solved in FMBT. (Arjun MK-III) DRDO has stated that smoothbore 120 mm weapon development has begun and rifled gun is bound to be replaced.

Otherwise license for Rh 120 L/44 or L/55 or even Rh NPzK 140 L/48 license can be purchased. Possibility of Ukrainian "Vitiaz" 125 which is superior to 2A46M and "Bageera" much superior to L/55 are also on the table - Ukraine has offered to sell 6TDF series 1500 HP and 1800 HP in development engines for Arjun and T-90MS tanks - if such trade offer is accepted, there is possibility of purchase of Ukrainian armament.

Flaws of Al-Khalid

1. ERA coverage: As in tanks of Chinese origin, ERA coverage over glacis is close to 70%. There is 40-50% possibility of 3BM42 Mango rounds used by T-90 and ARDE 120 round penetrating glacis if area without ERA is hit.

Since Indian T-90MS has Russian T-90A modifications, longer rounds such as 3BM42M Lekalo, 3BM59/60 Svinets-1/2 which may be supplied to India in the future have assured penetrations. Also able to penetrate glacis is Ukrainian 125 mm round "Vityaz" AP which is rumoured to have 750 mm penetration.

2. Roof armour: A moderate portion of roof armour slopes onto frontal turret armour in Chinese designs Type 90-II, 85-II and 96. Al-Khalid has also been observed with this flaw. In Soviet and Chinese school of tank design, roof armour is paltry, sometimes a mere 50 mm. As such, Al-Khalid is in risk of being penetrated frontally by even BMP-1's 73 mm and BMP-II's 2A42. Only Type 99A2 has been observed WITHOUT this flaw.

3. Side turret armour placement: In Soviet school of design, the turret was small and well angled but had poor protection on the sides which would not be exposed frontally. In Chinese school of design, the turret was larger and resembled Western turrets but had Soviet style armour placement - worst of both worlds. The side turret armour of T-90 itself is rated at only 140 mm without ERA. Al-Khalid seems to have similar placement to Type 85 and 90 which is to say poor. This flaw has been partially fixed by Chinese in Type-99A2 by uparmouring sides slightly and adding heavy ERA.

Solutions:

Problem 1. Simple, increase ERA blocks and rethink placement of the blocks.

Problem 2. Complete redesign of turret is required to remove this problem. Partially fixed by Pakistani designers by adding more ERA to the sloped part.

Problem 3. Redesign of turret - but weight will increase by one or two tons which may require redesigning of suspension.

The only clear advantage of Al-Khalid over Arjun is smoothbore weapon.

The only clear advantage of Arjun is hydrogas suspension which reduces weight of tanks by 1 or 2 tons compared to torsion bar.
Torsion bar provides comparable cushioning to hydrogas but must weight much more.

Arjun MK-III is perceived to receive 120 mm or 140 mm smoothbore weapon with 700+ mm penetrating rounds. DRDO has stated that development of 650 mm penetrating APFSDS round for old rifled gun itself is complete. Pakistan must change armour placements on hull and redesign turret to prevent frontal penetration.

As of now, both Arjun and Al-Khalid cannot penetrate each other frontally from other than above-mentioned weakspots.

Perhaps Al-Khalid-2 will receive long rod penetrators and hydrogas suspension to evenly match future Arjun.

It needs to become more interesting :D

Generally saying, Arjun has more potential for upgrades without turret redesign. It is expected that Chinese designers who are rectifying problems in their tanks will help Pakistan in design of future Al-Khalid variants.

The sub-continent is getting competitive. :lazy:

I hope this cleared it all up.

Regards,
Keshav


Top post,u forgot to add other weakness of al khalid,carousel type autoloader which prevents usage of too long penetrators .
Also NERA is better than ERA in defeating tandem warheads.

34t4uh2.jpg


And the claims debunked... for more info:

https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNEuS82TSDzPKMl0S5pbQA0OOxGfUA

Why don't u debunk the claims point by point?The thread proves nothing.All he said is quite true.
 
Top post,u forgot to add other weakness of al khalid,carousel type autoloader which prevents usage of too long penetrators .
Also NERA is better than ERA in defeating tandem warheads.

Actually, I did not post that since a Western poster in the other forum I use showed me that crew compartment of Al-Khalid was long enough for a modified autoloader which could accommodate penetrators with length of upto 850 mm.

But even that is much lesser than Arjun or any other Western tank which can take rounds with length of upto 1100 mm. Good example is Rh 120 which uses DM-63 which has length of ~1006 mm and a rod length of nearly 800 mm.

And ERA is EQUAL with NERA in defeating HEAT warheads as proven by Leopard 2 NERA tests and ERA is INFERIOR to NERA in defeating APFSDS segmented penetrators like DM-53, DM-63, 3BM42 "Mango", 3BM42M "Lekalo", M829A3, M829E4 and 3BM59/60 "Svinets" and possibly Ukrainian APFSDS "Vityaz" which is supposed to be in testing and limited service stage.

P.S. Do you know a moderator? I need to post pictures to prove my points and I can't post them :(
 
Damn thats bad,anyway its great to have u on here.Technical experts are a rare.Lidsky and 500 are 2 armour experts here.I think i remember u from IDF.Damian is a great armour expert there.

As for pics i think u need some more posts,:(
 
Actually, I did not post that since a Western poster in the other forum I use showed me that crew compartment of Al-Khalid was long enough for a modified autoloader which could accommodate penetrators with length of upto 850 mm.

But even that is much lesser than Arjun or any other Western tank which can take rounds with length of upto 1100 mm. Good example is Rh 120 which uses DM-63 which has length of ~1006 mm and a rod length of nearly 800 mm.

And ERA is EQUAL with NERA in defeating HEAT warheads as proven by Leopard 2 NERA tests and ERA is INFERIOR to NERA in defeating APFSDS segmented penetrators like DM-53, DM-63, 3BM42 "Mango", 3BM42M "Lekalo", M829A3, M829E4 and 3BM59/60 "Svinets" and possibly Ukrainian APFSDS "Vityaz" which is supposed to be in testing and limited service stage.

P.S. Do you know a moderator? I need to post pictures to prove my points and I can't post them :(

Do al khalid or arjun have seperate ammo compartment ?
 
Do al khalid or arjun have seperate ammo compartment ?

I am not aware for Al-Khalid. But no sources have claimed that it possesses as of now.

Arjun Mk.1 does not have safe isolated ammunition compartment. Only tank that has completely safe ammunition storage is M1 Abrams.

However Arjun has an slightly safe "ready rack" with 10 rounds and pressurized containers with one round each containing the rest 29 like in Merkava. Pressurized containers are only partially safe.

If there is HEAT penetration, Arjun will be most likely safe. But if there is APFSDS penetration, the remains of the penetrator might set off the ammunition in the containers.

Ready rack picture link:

h t t p :/ / i . i m g u r . c o m / A K k H I . j p g (Deliberately spaced - remove spaces to see picture)

Containers picture for Arjun is not available but picture of them in Merkava is below:

h t t p : / / i m g 8 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 8 / 6 6 5 6 / m er k a m o 3 . j p g (Deliberately spaced - remove spaces to see picture)

As for Arjun Mk.II

Arjun Mk.II will have containerised ammunition bin (CABIS) which is isolated and well armoured and will also have blow off panels, making it extremely safe if there is penetration.

CABIS will be armoured with 40-50 mm on all sides and so can only be penetrated when an extremely powerful longrod penetrator such as from the 140 mm Rheinmetall gun, the Ukrainian 140 mm "Bageera", the Russian 125 mm 2A82, 152 mm 2A83 or finally the Ukrainian 125 "Vitiaz" which can fire penetrators with 900 mm+ penetration since Arjun Mk.2's frontal turret is estimated at 750+150(NERA) and frontal glacis is estimated at 735/625+200 (thicker NERA). Possible penetration can be effected by M829A3 and E4.

Link for ammunition bin and blow off panels
h t t p : / / f r o n t i e r i n d i a . n e t / a r j u n - t a n k - m k - i i - c o n t a i n e r i s e d - a m m u n i t i o n - b i n - a n d - b l o w - o f f - p a n e l - a p p r o v e d (Deliberately spaced - remove spaces to see link)
 
I am not aware for Al-Khalid. But no sources have claimed that it possesses as of now.

Arjun Mk.1 does not have safe isolated ammunition compartment. Only tank that has completely safe ammunition storage is M1 Abrams.

However Arjun has an slightly safe "ready rack" with 10 rounds and pressurized containers with one round each containing the rest 29 like in Merkava. Pressurized containers are only partially safe.

If there is HEAT penetration, Arjun will be most likely safe. But if there is APFSDS penetration, the remains of the penetrator might set off the ammunition in the containers.

Ready rack picture link:

h t t p :/ / i . i m g u r . c o m / A K k H I . j p g (Deliberately spaced - remove spaces to see picture)

Containers picture for Arjun is not available but picture of them in Merkava is below:

h t t p : / / i m g 8 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 8 / 6 6 5 6 / m er k a m o 3 . j p g (Deliberately spaced - remove spaces to see picture)

As for Arjun Mk.II

Arjun Mk.II will have containerised ammunition bin (CABIS) which is isolated and well armoured and will also have blow off panels, making it extremely safe if there is penetration.

CABIS will be armoured with 40-50 mm on all sides and so can only be penetrated when an extremely powerful longrod penetrator such as from the 140 mm Rheinmetall gun, the Ukrainian 140 mm "Bageera", the Russian 125 mm 2A82, 152 mm 2A83 or finally the Ukrainian 125 "Vitiaz" which can fire penetrators with 900 mm+ penetration since Arjun Mk.2's frontal turret is estimated at 750+150(NERA) and frontal glacis is estimated at 735/625+200 (thicker NERA). Possible penetration can be effected by M829A3 and E4.

Link for ammunition bin and blow off panels
h t t p : / / f r o n t i e r i n d i a . n e t / a r j u n - t a n k - m k - i i - c o n t a i n e r i s e d - a m m u n i t i o n - b i n - a n d - b l o w - o f f - p a n e l - a p p r o v e d (Deliberately spaced - remove spaces to see link)

Another super post.Is the current pic that is available the arjun mk1a or arjun mk2?
Another thing how can we save weight on the FMBT?
 
Top post,u forgot to add other weakness of al khalid,carousel type autoloader which prevents usage of too long penetrators .
Also NERA is better than ERA in defeating tandem warheads.



Why don't u debunk the claims point by point?The thread proves nothing.All he said is quite true.

All he said is "SPECULATIONS" ... which have been debunked in previous threads...and yes the autoloader in AK-I has been changed for long rod ammo ... and yes there is a seperate compartment for rounds .... you and him should read the Al Khalid,Mbt-2000 information thread to update and improve your knowledge of AK capabilities etc.
 
All he said is "SPECULATIONS" ... which have been debunked in previous threads...and yes the autoloader in AK-I has been changed for long rod ammo ... and yes there is a seperate compartment for rounds .... you and him should read the Al Khalid,Mbt-2000 information thread to update and improve your knowledge of AK capabilities etc.

Can you support by pics? many people says many thing and same thing has many specifications and not one know the real but no one support with pics.
 
Another super post.Is the current pic that is available the arjun mk1a or arjun mk2?
Another thing how can we save weight on the FMBT?

Which picture? The ready rack is for the original Arjun MK.I. The containers are that of Merkava MK.III, I posted since they are similar to MK.I containers. Ammunition bin picture is not available as of now since interior photos of Arjun MK.II have yet to arrive. As for blow off panels, I remember seeing a picture on Arjun page in the other forum.

Saving weight on FMBT can be done only by unmanned turret. Obyekt 477 "Molot" designed by KMDB is good example. However, it did not enter service in either Ukraine or Russia when Soviet Union split. Ob.477 weighed 50 tonnes but had more armour than current T-84 "Yatagan" and "Oplot-M".

Normally, a turret weighs 16-20 tonnes. But unmanned turret does not need to be big enough for people to sit in and therefore weighs only 3 or 4 tonnes. For unmanned turret, only autoloader can be used. Human loader is not possible. DRDO has mentioned that FMBT will have unmanned turret already. And Kanchan armour weight reduction and production method improvement is taking place.

Another Example is US DARPA unmanned turret tank project in which 55 tonne tank had much more armour than Abrams M1A2, with LOS thickness ~1200 mm Composite armour on glacis plate!

Don't worry about FMBT. We'll take care of that when it enters service :)
 
Can you support by pics? many people says many thing and same thing has many specifications and not one know the real but no one support with pics.

Yes i can... and the info thread is there aswell... we have people who have actually worked on military projects...

Im short of time.. otherwise i would have answered...
 
All he said is "SPECULATIONS" ... which have been debunked in previous threads...and yes the autoloader in AK-I has been changed for long rod ammo ... and yes there is a seperate compartment for rounds .... you and him should read the Al Khalid,Mbt-2000 information thread to update and improve your knowledge of AK capabilities etc.

I just read the full thing. Al-Khalid has separate ammunition bins in both the back and the side. Unsafe. It would have been better if they were only on one side. If you have ammunition storage in two different places both in the hull, you need blow off panels for one place and extremely thick walls for the other. I don't see any blow off panels in Al-Khalid when blow off panels have been spotted in Arjun MK.IA.
 
Arjun MK.1/MK.1A blow off panels:

h t t p : / / w w w . a c i g . o r g / a rt ma n / u p l o a d s /a r j u n 2. j p g (Remove spaces to get a link - paste the link to see the picture)

Highlighted:

h t t p : / / i m g 2 5 9 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / im g 2 5 9 / 9 3 6 0 / ar j u n b o p a n e l s .j p g
(Remove spaces to get a link - paste the link to see the picture)

Sorry, clearer image was deleted on by uploader :(
 
Now that I've found a way to bypass the links problem,

Let me back my claims up:

Flaws:

1. ERA coverage:
Al-Khalid's frontal aspect:


h t t p : / / i m g 2 0 0 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 2 0 0 / 7 8 3 6 / s e r a o n f r o n t a l a s p e c t . j p g

You see that? Lot of area is left uncovered. That's not good. The solution: More ERA blocks. Compare this with T-90S of IA.

T-90S frontal aspect:

h t t p : / / i m g 5 1 5 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 5 1 5 / 1 7 1 7/ t 9 0 s e r a o n f r o n t a l a s p e c t . j p g

More or less similar.

2. Roof armour
Al-Khalid's frontal aspect:


h t t p : / / i m g 4 2 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 4 2 / 4 8 9 9 / a l k h a l i d r o o f v u l n e r a b i l i . j p g

Is this clear now?

See also Chinese Type 96:
h t t p : / / i m g 5 9 . i m a g e s h a c k . u s / i m g 5 9 / 3 2 0 1 / s 6 4 0 x 4 8 0 k j h . j p g

Complete redesign of turret as in Type 99A2 is needed. But modelling Al-Khalid 2 turret on Type 99A2 will be detrimental since Type 99A2 turret has very little space for composite inserts.

Well, I don't work at HIT.
 
Very to the point and with proof.
I want to ask u one question has the original composite armour of t-90m bhisma been replaced by kanchan armour?
 
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